We need to let Bethesda die

[Mudran]

another old topic :) I like you, so I'm not trying to get into anything wrong - but at the same time I feel sort of sad about his, so I will try something new: Do you have a prove of that claim that it is that reason?

Also quite often when it comes to RPG it looks like 2 people aren't talking about the same even if they are using the same terms, because that word is so vague - I don't agree with extreme oldschool RPG players, but I believe in a different RPG.

But I already learned that people are different, so I don't claim that RPG is for everybody, only I feel like this argument was maybe true before Morrowind, or now you can say this about hardcore RPG players, but most of the players could be talking about "soft" RPG which means simply more immersive world and that could be better for the games?

[HeyYou]

another old topic :smile: I like you, so I'm not trying to get into anything wrong - but at the same time I feel sort of sad about his, so I will try something new: Do you have a prove of that claim that it is that reason?

Also quite often when it comes to RPG it looks like 2 people aren't talking about the same even if they are using the same terms, because that word is so vague - I don't agree with extreme oldschool RPG players, but I believe in a different RPG.

But I already learned that people are different, so I don't claim that RPG is for everybody, only I feel like this argument was maybe true before Morrowind, or now you can say this about hardcore RPG players, but most of the players could be talking about "soft" RPG which means simply more immersive world and that could be better for the games?

Todd Howard, and Pete Hines both flatly stated the reasoning for 'streamlining' the game, was to appeal to a larger audience. (console gamers.) There are various interviews on youtube from 'back in the day', (after Oblivion was previewed at the E3 conference in 05??)

 

And you are right. The term "RPG" is a VERY broad meaning... and I don't think any two people will agree on it. :) For these purposes though, it boils down to character skill trumping player skill. The character has enumerated skills, and stats, and those numbers determine success/failure in whatever endeavor. Morrowind was a 'real' RPG. Pretty much the same mechanics folks have been using for pen and paper RPGs for decades. (yep, I am an old school dungeons and dragons player. I started on the first edition, that came in a slew of paperback booklets. :) )

[ramilow]

Whoever has now a problem with start a game with F4SE, he knows why Bethesda is an XDDDD problem

[lightguidste]

 

Nope, this is a silly idea.

 

I think people have lost sight of two simple facts:

1. Bethesda games have always sold well, and better, on consoles than they have on PC. Console modding was never possible until very recently.
2. The vanilla games (excluding perhaps FO76) are still very good to play, for the most part, even if they are buggy in places. I myself always play any new game without mods first, before I do any playthrough with mods. They always stand up and provide a good source of entertainment.

The conclusion of these two facts is that:

1. The modding community is not as important as people like to make it out to be. It supplements their games, sure, but it is not what makes them so successful and if it didn't exist, they would still be an economic success.
2. Bethesda games being buggy has become more of a meme than something mired in truth. Yes, they have bugs, but you can still get a very good, enjoyable experience out of the vanilla games.

 

I cant speak about skyrim never downloaded it but with fallout most anoying was that the lore / gameplaying bugs folks brougth forward neveer got fixed by beth and where relativly fast fixed by modders on pc at least like the fix for dependency quest or bugs with quests somehow not completing corectly

And i must say in F76 they did listen to modders when shortly afther soem guy brought out a mod to show u wich paterns / recipies u already had learned where flagged at vendors / player trade afther a patch.

[RGMage2]

 

Also quite often when it comes to RPG it looks like 2 people aren't talking about the same even if they are using the same terms, because that word is so vague - I don't agree with extreme oldschool RPG players, but I believe in a different RPG.

 

Person A: RPG = Role Playing Game

Person B: RPG = Rocket Propelled Grenade

 

 

Edit:

On a off topic though slightly related side note, the FDA allows Up to 15 fly eggs and one maggot per 100 grams of tomato paste and other pizza sauces. Even pizza is buggy and you are what you eat. So if you ever get that nervous feeling like Butterflies in the stomach or it feels like your skin is crawling, relax, it's normal. :)

[Mudran]

That is the most obvious :smile: I even saw a youtuber using term roleplaying when he was playing a tank in a group - and he did sound really serious - not like he didn't just steal an older expression for something else.

 

But I would say there are more of types of players when it comes to RPG:

strategy

combat

self

other roles

realism

 

And all of those fight with each other quite often for some reason sadly. Or they are in more of groups.

 

1. When I look at old games I see strategic games - they didn't care about immersion, but mainly about numbers and planning. Most of the first RPG isometric games had this kind of gameplay.

Mostly because it was made by programmers for programmers and the graphic couldn't be good, so nobody else was playing them.

 

2. version is action combat games - they can be immersive, but again, it is a lot about stats, planning and knowledge in the most hard core examples. And some fast reflexes. But otherwise good enough when you don't want to think too much.

 

3. Self - you play yourself - ideal for completionists - most of Ubisoft and action openworld games - they can be immersive with their impressive engines, so they relay on them a lot - that became popular in AAA industry for some reason.

 

4. Other roles - that is something nobody does really - I don't know why :sad: It started a bit in old MMOs, but was left shorty after starting levels. But the only game I know about, which had it as a side effect was Skyrim.

 

5. realism started as a part of immersion but went into psycho.

 

So can you see now why word "streamlining" can drive players crazy? It means nothing, it says nothing - it does sound like 16x times detail or 300% increased stability etc and I saw some MMOs destroyed in the name of streamlining.

I think WoW used it first - but (I think) they didn't take away mechanics players loved in the name of streamlining, but they took away annoying things - which still even now some people demand in the name of "insert random group of players and add extreme at the end of it"

What Bethesda removed? annoying features wasting your time with boring things. But what they added? Immersive world and they had the rule of "cool" - everything in their games was trying to be interesting, variability etc. So saying streamlining is reason for their success is not really true, because a lot of it changed.

But with Fallout 4 they removed all features other groups would enjoy and left only - play yourself. You could say that it is streamlining, but for me it is simply a different gameplay. But they added back annoying things like impossibility to save in survival... or removed achievements in modded games. I think they are going back ...

 

EDIT:

they removed content which would add fun. But still there was a lot of good things left.

But the major problem with cutting content in the name of streamlining is that what is left there is usually repetitive and boring. It makes me really sad what is going on. I hope someone will prove this trend to be wrong :(.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Mudran