Is the Dragonborn actually Tiber Septim?

[Lachdonin]

 

 

If it was possible you have no idea how much I would love to destroy the Aldmeri Dominion. I don't see Skyrim as part of the Empire, therefore I believe the Thalmor have no authority in Skyrim whatsoever. Thsts just the way I think.

 

Then you are legally wrong. Skyrim IS part of the Empire...

 

 

According to who? The Empire?

What a surprise.

 

 

Skyrim is a tithe paying province of the Empire, yes. It is as much a part of the Empire (at the beginning of the game, anyway) as New York is a part of the United States of America. It has a Provincial Government (the High King and the Jarls) who answer, ultimately, to the Federal Government (the Emperor). Under any legal basis, this makes Skyrim part of the Empire. They can't even claim to be an 'occupied territory' because they JOINED the Empire, willingly.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

The whole point of a civil war is to dispute jurisdiction ... by other means.

 

There is also the issue of a broken treaty. Skyrim was promised an exception to the ban on worshiping Talos. One could make the legal argument that the abrogation of the treaty severed the Empire's legal jurisdiction. It's pretty extreme as legal arguments go, but there it is. If you really wanted to play legal games you could claim that you're not seceding from the Empire but simply enforcing the terms of the treaty ... by whatever means necessary. If the Empire feels the need to attack they're the ones breaking the law. Particularly in a land of Nords passive-aggressive rationalization is a weaker position than simply citing the abrogation of the treaty as casus belli for a war of secession.

 

Finally there is the fact that the only way to change Skyrim for the better is to restore Talos to the Temple of the Nine (formerly Eight) in Solitude, and the only way to do that is win a complete victory for the Stormcloaks. Did the writers do that on purpose? Hard to say. Winning for the Empire doesn't end the segregation of Windhelm, and that was by design, as it's addressed in the game.

All this makes the argument that the civil war is illegal kind of beside the point. The treaty promised Talos and a Stormcloak victory is the only way the promise is kept. The Empire may be on the side of Order, but who really is on the side of Law?

[Lachdonin]

Not entirely true, Ratcatcher. The agreement to allow the Talos worship was instituted by Jarl Ignmund of Markarth, a man who did not have the authority to contradict the terms of an international treaty. That would be like the Mayor of Huston deciding it was ok to sell nuclear weapons to Trinidad, directly violating the Nuclear Nonproliferation Act, of which the USA (Huston's superior being Texas, Texas' superior authority being the Federal Government) is a signed member.

 

But this isn't really the place of this, and the discussion has been had out many, many times. Whether or not the civil war is ethically justified (it is, i just don't think the end result is worth the grievance) at the start of the game Skyrim remains part of the Empire. In this case, the Empire is both on the side of Order and Law. The Stormcloaks are more on the side of integrity.

 

Bear in mind, of course, that the word of law is rarely ethical.

[BloodrendX001]

The Septim line has been ruptured multiple times. Tiber Septim's last direct descendant was the second emperor. The following emperor was Tiber's niece, daughter of his brother. Then when that line seemed to die, we had a new Emperor, Cephorus, who was chosen because he had the closest relation to original line (exact relation isn't specified). All the following Emperors up to Martin descended from him. We also had a Dunmeri Empress, Katariah, with zero (blood) relation to Tiber. She was chosen because she was the wife of Pelagius the Mad.

 

Anyway, I doubt our Dragonborn is Tiber, though I can see the similarities. The Ghost of Old Hroldan probably mistaken us for Hjalti (Tiber), because they both have Dovah souls.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

@Lachdonin:

Good point, although the Imperials accepted the treaty in exchange for the restoration of Imperial control over Markarth, so the legal argument for secession still stands: the Empire promised Talos; the Stormcloaks demand that promise be kept. That the Empire didn't pen the treaty became irrelevant once they agreed to it.

[DuesCognito]

Personally, I think that ghost died with a concussion (or drunk, he did die in a bar, after alll....) and has spent his afterlife not thinking straight....

 

What is the official Tamriel position on reincarnation? Wouldn't Tiber be in Sovengaarde?

[DuesCognito]

No, Talos wasn't in Sovernguard, he isn't a Nord, either. I believe that each Dragonborn is the reincarnation of Talos, as if every emperor was Dragonborn, they have blood right to be in Sovernguard too, but none of them are. I believe that Akatosh takes the soul of the Dragonborn when his mortal body fails him, and reincarnated them. You have the soul of a Dragon, and Dragon souls can never be destroyed, just absorbed by the Dragonborn. But, I believe those souls have to go somewhere while waiting to be reincarnated into another body, and u believe they go to Akatosh. That's how Alduin would be able to bring Dragons back, as Akatosh's way to end Nirn, he has the ability to use those souls freely to carry out his destiny. You do not get Alduins soul because he is part of a larger plan: the future end of Nirn. My biggest point is that Dragon souls can never be destroyed, and since you have the Soul of a dragon as Dovakiin, a Dragonborn soul cannot truly enter Sovernguard, or all the old Dragonborns would be there, and since they are not, that only means they are reincarnated.