Mod Theft on Patreon

[fore]

No answer either.

[MadMansGun]

nothing on my end as well....dose anyone know a popular youtuber that's good at creating public outrage? it seems like that's the only way to get a response for anything theses days.

[Reneer]

My first thought there might be Jim Sterling or maybe Zaric Zhakaron?

 

I mean, pretty much every YouTuber has a Patreon now, so it is something that should concern them too.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Reneer

[ToroMontana]

I would suggest instead sending it to [email protected] and only provide as much personal info as you feel comfortable with. Usually the minimum needed is your real name and city of residence (if you're in the US, dunno about other countries).

 

The main reason I suggest that route is because of this quote:

 

 

Please note: The DMCA, as a legal document, does require that you provide personal information. It is standard for websites to post such legal documents online or share such documents with the claimed infringer. This is like posting a summons or subpoena on a door. As a result your personal information may be publicly shared in this process.

 

Call me cynical, but that reeks of a site that's hostile to copyright holders and using their personal info as an intimidation tactic when reporting violations. IMO that's just plain wrong. I sure as hell am not giving up my real home address or phone number to a company that's openly threatening to post that information online somewhere because some thief is stealing my stuff.

 

That's not Patreon's fault, that's how a legal takedown using DMCA works. All websites handle copyright violations this way.

 

If you could file a copyright claim without providing any real personal information and without any penalty of perjury that comes with a false complaint, just imagine how easily it could be abused.

 

Ask yourself this first of all, how would Patreon even know you're the real author? They don't. (And personally I don't trust any of these tech giants to judge context.) Anyone can send anonymous e-mail saying they're the copyright holder. It's better that they require at least some kind of legal document before they take down content. Most trolls are not going to lie on a legal document just to troll you.

 

Note that the content thief can also dispute this DMCA though a counter-DMCA. If that happens, you pretty much need to go court. Sucks, but we don't really have a better system now.

Edited April 13, 2019 by ToroMontana

[ToroMontana]

Has someone got a answer from patreon?

 

 

 

Has anyone filed a DMCA?

 

That's one thing they definitely can't ignore. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to host content and ignore an official DMCA.

[alannexus]

 

I would suggest instead sending it to [email protected] and only provide as much personal info as you feel comfortable with. Usually the minimum needed is your real name and city of residence (if you're in the US, dunno about other countries).

 

The main reason I suggest that route is because of this quote:

 

 

Please note: The DMCA, as a legal document, does require that you provide personal information. It is standard for websites to post such legal documents online or share such documents with the claimed infringer. This is like posting a summons or subpoena on a door. As a result your personal information may be publicly shared in this process.

 

Call me cynical, but that reeks of a site that's hostile to copyright holders and using their personal info as an intimidation tactic when reporting violations. IMO that's just plain wrong. I sure as hell am not giving up my real home address or phone number to a company that's openly threatening to post that information online somewhere because some thief is stealing my stuff.

 

That's not Patreon's fault, that's how a legal takedown using DMCA works. All websites handle copyright violations this way.

 

If you could file a copyright claim without providing any real personal information and without any penalty of perjury that comes with a false complaint, just imagine how easily it could be abused.

 

Ask yourself this first of all, how would Patreon even know you're the real author? They don't. (And personally I don't trust any of these tech giants to judge context.) Anyone can send anonymous e-mail saying they're the copyright holder. It's better that they require at least some kind of legal document before they take down content. Most trolls are not going to lie on a legal document just to troll you.

 

Note that the content thief can also dispute this DMCA though a counter-DMCA. If that happens, you pretty much need to go court. Sucks, but we don't really have a better system now.

 

how would they know the name given had anything to do with the mod most mods are posted using user names why not contact the mod autor and ask if it has permission

[ToroMontana]

 

 

I would suggest instead sending it to [email protected] and only provide as much personal info as you feel comfortable with. Usually the minimum needed is your real name and city of residence (if you're in the US, dunno about other countries).

 

The main reason I suggest that route is because of this quote:

 

 

Please note: The DMCA, as a legal document, does require that you provide personal information. It is standard for websites to post such legal documents online or share such documents with the claimed infringer. This is like posting a summons or subpoena on a door. As a result your personal information may be publicly shared in this process.

 

Call me cynical, but that reeks of a site that's hostile to copyright holders and using their personal info as an intimidation tactic when reporting violations. IMO that's just plain wrong. I sure as hell am not giving up my real home address or phone number to a company that's openly threatening to post that information online somewhere because some thief is stealing my stuff.

 

That's not Patreon's fault, that's how a legal takedown using DMCA works. All websites handle copyright violations this way.

 

If you could file a copyright claim without providing any real personal information and without any penalty of perjury that comes with a false complaint, just imagine how easily it could be abused.

 

Ask yourself this first of all, how would Patreon even know you're the real author? They don't. (And personally I don't trust any of these tech giants to judge context.) Anyone can send anonymous e-mail saying they're the copyright holder. It's better that they require at least some kind of legal document before they take down content. Most trolls are not going to lie on a legal document just to troll you.

 

Note that the content thief can also dispute this DMCA though a counter-DMCA. If that happens, you pretty much need to go court. Sucks, but we don't really have a better system now.

 

how would they know the name given had anything to do with the mod most mods are posted using user names why not contact the mod autor and ask if it has permission

 

Real people/companies with real legal names own the copyright to content, not a nickname with a strange avatar.

 

When they (Patreon and other content hosts) get a DMCA notice they're legally obligated to take down the content unless the thief also disputes it with his own DMCA (in which case you basically have to take it up in court since Patreon is a neutral host, it doesn't actively investigate claims of copyright infringement).

 

https://www.patreon.com/legal

 

They are not required to take down content by any other means and frankly I'd rather they not be because they are not equipped to investigate in any level of detail a copyright complaint. Best case scenario, they would function similar to kangaroo court in my estimation, the DMCA seems fine by me (compared to alternatives) even if it requires submitting some personal info. There can be no room for identity secrecy in a legal dispute.

 

You make it sound simple because you know how the modding community works. A third party who knows nothing about Bethesda or mods may not.

 

I'm not even sure they could in fact establish that content was even stolen in the first place. It would be obvious if someone copied a mod without no modifications, just copy/pasted. But what if someone simply copied a 3D model from a large project and put it into his own mod? The only way for Patreon to investigate this would be to have someone on the staff who knows the basics of Bethesda games modding including possibly how NifSkope works, how ba2 archives work and maybe even how the Creation Kit works to investigate more subtle forms of content piracy. And mods are an insignificant percentage of the entire content Patreon hosts, their business model wouldn't be sustainable if they didn't have the safe harbor status the DMCA gives content hosts.

 

There are other issues as well. Try to think of how a third party outside the modding community would view this and you will discover many problems with requiring content hosts to get more involved in policing content, including:

 

1. being able to even identify the real author (while usually true, content being uploaded to Nexus Mods first does not in fact establish who the copyright owner is so Patreon making a Nexus account and contacting the author is not 100% reliable, copyright is established by who created it in the first place even if he never uploaded it anywhere - or... maybe both the Patreon guy and the Nexus guy stole it from someone entirely different)

2. fair use disputes

3. permission disputes (in theory a mod author could privately give you permission and say the exact opposite to Patreon out of some personal dispute that came after permission was given)

 

 

As a content creator myself, I certainly don't like it when someone takes my mods (especially when they also fail to update them with the latest version), but I wouldn't want websites to take down mods either just because someone who is anonymous sent an e-mail saying so. If you don't even have a name provided, you could literally be anyone.

 

Sure the DMCA can be abused as well, but it is set up in such a way that abusers risk being charged with perjury and being liable for lawsuits. There are no consequences for anonymous non-DMCA copyright claims. So it's very open to trolling.

Edited April 13, 2019 by ToroMontana

[ToroMontana]

There's also another reason why these companies are not gonna get involved in such direct copyright policing. If they get it wrong either way (i.e. they keep the content up but was infringing OR they remove the content but it was not), they're liable to get sued as well. If they follow the DMCA, they're safe. They're not gonna to jeopardize their safe harbor status.

[alannexus]

 

 

 

I would suggest instead sending it to [email protected] and only provide as much personal info as you feel comfortable with. Usually the minimum needed is your real name and city of residence (if you're in the US, dunno about other countries).

 

The main reason I suggest that route is because of this quote:

 

 

Please note: The DMCA, as a legal document, does require that you provide personal information. It is standard for websites to post such legal documents online or share such documents with the claimed infringer. This is like posting a summons or subpoena on a door. As a result your personal information may be publicly shared in this process.

 

Call me cynical, but that reeks of a site that's hostile to copyright holders and using their personal info as an intimidation tactic when reporting violations. IMO that's just plain wrong. I sure as hell am not giving up my real home address or phone number to a company that's openly threatening to post that information online somewhere because some thief is stealing my stuff.

 

That's not Patreon's fault, that's how a legal takedown using DMCA works. All websites handle copyright violations this way.

 

If you could file a copyright claim without providing any real personal information and without any penalty of perjury that comes with a false complaint, just imagine how easily it could be abused.

 

Ask yourself this first of all, how would Patreon even know you're the real author? They don't. (And personally I don't trust any of these tech giants to judge context.) Anyone can send anonymous e-mail saying they're the copyright holder. It's better that they require at least some kind of legal document before they take down content. Most trolls are not going to lie on a legal document just to troll you.

 

Note that the content thief can also dispute this DMCA though a counter-DMCA. If that happens, you pretty much need to go court. Sucks, but we don't really have a better system now.

 

how would they know the name given had anything to do with the mod most mods are posted using user names why not contact the mod autor and ask if it has permission

 

Real people/companies with real legal names own the copyright to content, not a nickname with a strange avatar.

 

When they (Patreon and other content hosts) get a DMCA notice they're legally obligated to take down the content unless the thief also disputes it with his own DMCA (in which case you basically have to take it up in court since Patreon is a neutral host, it doesn't actively investigate claims of copyright infringement).

 

https://www.patreon.com/legal

 

They are not required to take down content by any other means and frankly I'd rather they not be because they are not equipped to investigate in any level of detail a copyright complaint. Best case scenario, they would function similar to kangaroo court in my estimation, the DMCA seems fine by me (compared to alternatives) even if it requires submitting some personal info. There can be no room for identity secrecy in a legal dispute.

 

You make it sound simple because you know how the modding community works. A third party who knows nothing about Bethesda or mods may not.

 

I'm not even sure they could in fact establish that content was even stolen in the first place. It would be obvious if someone copied a mod without no modifications, just copy/pasted. But what if someone simply copied a 3D model from a large project and put it into his own mod? The only way for Patreon to investigate this would be to have someone on the staff who knows the basics of Bethesda games modding including possibly how NifSkope works, how ba2 archives work and maybe even how the Creation Kit works to investigate more subtle forms of content piracy. And mods are an insignificant percentage of the entire content Patreon hosts, their business model wouldn't be sustainable if they didn't have the safe harbor status the DMCA gives content hosts.

 

There are other issues as well. Try to think of how a third party outside the modding community would view this and you will discover many problems with requiring content hosts to get more involved in policing content, including:

 

1. being able to even identify the real author (while usually true, content being uploaded to Nexus Mods first does not in fact establish who the copyright owner is so Patreon making a Nexus account and contacting the author is not 100% reliable, copyright is established by who created it in the first place even if he never uploaded it anywhere - or... maybe both the Patreon guy and the Nexus guy stole it from someone entirely different)

2. fair use disputes

3. permission disputes (in theory a mod author could privately give you permission and say the exact opposite to Patreon out of some personal dispute that came after permission was given)

 

 

As a content creator myself, I certainly don't like it when someone takes my mods (especially when they also fail to update them with the latest version), but I wouldn't want websites to take down mods either just because someone who is anonymous sent an e-mail saying so. If you don't even have a name provided, you could literally be anyone.

 

Sure the DMCA can be abused as well, but it is set up in such a way that abusers risk being charged with perjury and being liable for lawsuits. There are no consequences for anonymous non-DMCA copyright claims. So it's very open to trolling.

 

people who mod dont use there real names though ive only seen someone with a real name one or 2 times so providing a name isnt prove,has for cant prove he sells packs of mods which is against bethesda rules so thats enough of a reason to get them removed (why are mod thiefs and youtubers allowed make money from mods but modders cant),there are other sites for mods other than nexus LL,bethesda.net etc but he wants to sell them so proving who owns them doesnt need to be estabilshed they should be removed because they cant be sold.as for fair use he isnt using it for personal use he is selling them

[ToroMontana]

people who mod dont use there real names though ive only seen someone with a real name one or 2 times so providing a name isnt prove,

 

It's not really proof and Patreon isn't involved in actively policing copyright, they just comply with DMCA takedowns.

 

It's like:

a. you send a DMCA notice - they take down the content

b. alleged thief/real thief files a counter-notice (he also needs to provide his name, or he can quietly accept that he was wrong)

c. if the thief disputes your claim this way, you have several business days to file a lawsuit for copyright infringement - otherwise the content goes back up

 

Let's hope it doesn't come to that and the thief simply backs off when he sees the DMCA notice.

 

Giving a name is more about establishing:

1. accountability in case you lie (a false DMCA is legally the equivalent of perjury, an anonymous complaint in an e-mail is not)

2. that you're not a troll and you're at least somewhat serious about it (at least in the eyes of a third party, you need to look at it from that perspective, Patreon doesn't know how things work in the modding community)

 

It could still be abused by trolls but trolls typically don't give out real names or risk a lawsuit / criminal charges.

 

 

 

has for cant prove he sells packs of mods which is against bethesda rules so thats enough of a reason to get them removed (why are mod thiefs and youtubers allowed make money from mods but modders cant),there are other sites for mods other than nexus LL,bethesda.net etc but he wants to sell them so proving who owns them doesnt need to be estabilshed they should be removed because they cant be sold.as for fair use he isnt using it for personal use he is selling them

 

Bethesda is no exception to the rule, they'd also need to file a DMCA and they would need to do it themselves or through a lawyer or other legal representative. Certainly not through a modder. We don't speak for them.

 

To you and me it seems obvious that Bethesda is right, to a third party not involved with modding it may not be. And with all the other copyright disputes in thousands of other communities around Patreon, it just isn't feasible (or even desired in my opinion) to have Patreon become the copyright police.

 

It's easy to say "well it's against the EULA". Okay, Bethesda games are just a handful of products, do you believe Patreon has the time or resources to look into every EULA that was ever created for a game?

 

Not to mention that merely proving content was stolen sometimes requires having a copy of Skyrim/Fallout4/whatever + Creation Kit. Without that, you really can't confirm the infringement. So they'd need to purchase several games and hire a moderator who knows about these games just to investigate this one claim with rigorous detail.

Edited April 14, 2019 by ToroMontana