On Karliah

[ClonePatrol]

I found myself thinking about the character of Karliah, her age and relation to Barenziah in particular. I ended up posting a rather long winded reply about it to a section that happened to be on her talk page over at the wikia but figured I'd get more replies if I placed it over here. Rather than rewriting it though I'm just goona copy/paste it.

 

EDIT: Checked back for replies and considered some might not even read this due to it's length, bolded some of the more important parts so they can be seen at a glance.

 

According to The Nightingales Vol. 2 Karliah's grandfather was Drayven Indoril, who was the real Nightgale that seduced Queen Barenziah to obtain the Staff of Chaos (and not Jagar Tharn as said in The Real Barenziah). Jagar Tharn didn't imprison Uriel Septim VII until 3E 389, so the staff must have been stolen sometime (likely not long) before this. It's only just after her time with the Nightingale that 'The Real Barenziah' states Barenziah became pregnant with her first son Helseth Hlaalu. This would indicate that either Dralsi Indoril was Helseth's twin, or some dates are listed incorrectly (possibly on purpose).

 

It is possible that Dralsi was infact Barenziah's first-born child (and also an illegitimate one) making it very important for the dates to be adjusted in the official records, because if not then Queen Barenziah's later son with King Symmachus would have had a dangerous challenger to his claim to the throne of Morrowind. If this is the case, Karliah may herself have a claim to the throne of Morrowind. Barenziah, having already lost her child fathered by Tiber in similar circumstances would likely have gone to great lengths to prevent this from happening. Mer with their increbily long lives are also incredibly infertile and can usually only have two children, according to the mage that aborted her child from Tiber no elven woman is known to have conceived more than four times (and that is incredibly rare). That could have meant that the Drayven's child could have been her last, but she did go on to have two more with Symmachus, Helseth and Morgiah (bringing the total number to the stated cap of four).

 

Anyway, according to the times given Dralsi would have been born around 3E 389, were she alive during Skyrim she'd be around 245. Gallus was killed 25 years prior to the events of Skyrim in 4E 176 and Dralsi died sometime shortly before him, but Karliah had been fully grown and already a member of the Thieves Guild in Riften for several years by this point and was soon after her mothers death inducted into the Nightingales to replace her.

 

It's implied in 'The Real Barenziah' that Mer grow to maturity at around the same speed as Men. Barenziah ran away and joined the same Thieves' Guild as Dralsi and Karliah at age sixteen, met Tiber Septim at age seventeen, was pregnant with Tiber's child not long after (though this was considered unusual, and that child was aborted so it couldn't be a threat to Tiber's heir), and became Queen of Morrowind not long after that. All this in mind, Karliah was probably seventeen or eighteen before she joined The Guild but likely not much older. Taking "several years" to mean more than two but not many, this would mean she was probably in her early twenties when she joined the Nightingales (probably 20 years old at the youngest).

 

If one assumes that it wasn't long after this that Gallus was killed by Mercer (as The Nightingales Vol. 2 indicates Gallus was about to look more into Mercer and his past, and that's likely when he discovered Mercer's treachery towards The Guild) then Karliah would be around 50 years of age, possibly as young as 45. She may have spent more than half of her life leading up to the events of Skyrim on the run after Mercer's betrayal.

 

This all relies heavily on the information on Karliah written by Gallus, who was likely told it all by Dralsi herself. According to this information Dralsi was likely around 200 years old before Gallus ever joined the Nightingales and was probably a member long before him. The story he was told could be entirely fictional, making it impossible to know any of this for sure. The only way to verify the story would be to ask Barenziah herself, her death never being reported in any of the lore, she'd be around 638 years old during Skyrim and presumably in Morrowind somewhere in Helseth's court (Skyrim contains very little information on the present state of Morrowind though). If it's all true and with what we know of their pasts, Barenziah may very much like to meet Karliah but Helseth would most certainly try to have her killed if he became aware of her.

 

If I'm not mistaken, it's also worth nothing that Karliah mentions in game that it was Gallus who told her of the Nightingales even though according to Gallus' writing Dralsi had intended to do so herself ("when the time was right to reveal it"). It's possible that Karliah knows nothing of her mothers membership in the Nightingales or her connection to the throne of Morrowind as Gallus may have also been killed before he was able to tell her, and unless Karliah happened to read the books he penned before the Dovahkin got to them, then the player might be the only living character to know and could have taken the books from Nightingale Hall and thus preventing Karliah from finding out (unless they tell her of course, but it's not possible to discus with her in game).

 

Wondering what other people think of this, I find it kind of odd that it's left as open ended as it is. It feels like something should have been done with it, it's just so much information tied to a single character in game for it to not really go anywhere once the player is able to put together this much. Why even make her the granddaughter of Barenziah (one of the most elaborated on characters in all of the lore)?

Edited August 22, 2012 by ClonePatrol

[Freya1997]

If your theory is true... then knowing Bethesda it'd probably be for shits and giggles, but then again it could be more. It wouldn't be the first time they put in something that set the foundation for the next game. They did this in Oblivion as well with the npc's sometimes commenting on there being unrest and rioting wizards in the Summerset Isles. We all know what that unrest eventually led to.

 

Also this is probably a noob question, but how old can Elder Scrolls elves become? I've never seen it get mentioned anywhere.... (or I'm just blind)

[ClonePatrol]

Altmer are generally the longest lived at around a thousand years with the rest of the Mer not being all that far behind (if I remember right, it's only around a hundred year difference). Most of them don't live that long though, dieing to violence or disease at a much younger age. There's discussion of it in several in-game books, this is the only one I can think of offhand (having recently reread it, as it relates to Karliah):

 

The Real Barenziah, Part 2 - Page 3

 

She talked to Katisha about her problems with men. Or what she thought of as her problems with men. Katisha shook her head and told her she was looking for love, not sex, that she'd know the right man when she found him, that neither Straw nor Therris was the right one for her.

 

Barenziah cocked her head to one side quizzically. "They say Dark Elven women are pro-- pro-- something. Prostitutes?" she said, although she was dubious.

 

"You mean promiscuous. Although some do become prostitutes, I suppose," Katisha said as an afterthought. "Elves are promiscuous when they're young. But you'll outgrow it. Perhaps you're beginning to already," she added hopefully. She liked Barenziah, had grown to be quite fond of her. "You ought to meet some nice Elven boys, though. If you go on keeping company with Khajiits and humans and what have you, you'll find yourself pregnant in next to no time."

 

Barenziah smiled involuntarily at the thought. "I'd like that. I think. But it would be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Babies are a lot of trouble, and I don't even have my own house yet."

 

"How old are you, Berry? Seventeen? Well, you've a year or two yet before you're fertile, unless you're very unlucky. Elves don't have children readily with other Elves after that, even, so you'll be all right if you stick with them."

 

Barenziah remembered something else. "Straw wants to buy a farm and marry me."

 

"Is that what you want?"

 

"No. Not yet. Maybe someday. Yes, someday. But not if I can't be queen. And not just any queen. The Queen of Mournhold." She said this determinedly, almost stubbornly, as if to drown out any doubt.

 

Katisha chose to ignore this last comment. She was amused at the girl's hyperactive imagination, took it as a sign of a well-functioning mind. "I think Straw will be a very old man before 'someday' comes, Berry. Elves live for a very long time." Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did.

 

"I like old men too," Berry said.

 

Katisha laughed.

[Freya1997]

Ah I see. Thanks for answering this newbies question. :)

[Lachdonin]

Some things to remember when dealing with Barenziah is that her children as Queen of Wayrest are likely not all of them. Helseth and Morgiah are, certianly, two children atributed to her, but she also had an afair with Tiber Septim, which, if i remember correctly, produced at least one heir though this was promptly killed (likewise, if i rember correctly).

 

The possibility of a legitimate claim on the part of Karliah to the throne of Morrowind depends entirely on the current state of Helseth and Barenziah. We have yet to be told that they died, and as Dunmer are almost as long lived (in some cases, considerably more so -Diavath Fyr-) as Altmer, both could be very much alive right now. It's alluded to, by the younger Sarethi sister, that Mournhold is still a functioning capital city, so theres nothing to indicate that the throne of Morrowind isn't the same as when we left it.

[ClonePatrol]

Some things to remember when dealing with Barenziah is that her children as Queen of Wayrest are likely not all of them. Helseth and Morgiah are, certianly, two children atributed to her, but she also had an afair with Tiber Septim, which, if i remember correctly, produced at least one heir though this was promptly killed (likewise, if i rember correctly).

 

The possibility of a legitimate claim on the part of Karliah to the throne of Morrowind depends entirely on the current state of Helseth and Barenziah. We have yet to be told that they died, and as Dunmer are almost as long lived (in some cases, considerably more so -Diavath Fyr-) as Altmer, both could be very much alive right now. It's alluded to, by the younger Sarethi sister, that Mournhold is still a functioning capital city, so theres nothing to indicate that the throne of Morrowind isn't the same as when we left it.

 

It states in 'The Real Barenziah' that no elven woman is known to conceive more than four times (and that that happening is very rare). With Dralsi, Helseth, Morgiah, and the one Tiber Septim had aborted then that's four and we can assume Barenziah had no more children than that.

 

The reason I say Karliah may have a claim to the throne of Morrowind (Mournhold) is because the discrepancy in the dates suggests Dralsi might have actually been the firstborn child, and among nobles the firstborn generally has the best (primary) inheritance. Helseth is generally believed to be the oldest and he's the current King of Mournhold (unless his was death was never mentioned) and his younger sister Morgiah is Queen of Wayrest (though Morgiah wanted Mournhold and they aren't on the best terms with each other, as tends to happen with ambitious noble children). Barenziah is/was largely retired from ruling, and while her death was never reported her exact whereabouts are unknown. Whether or not Karliah could take the throne from Helseth is hard to say since she'd need to obtain allies among the Great Houses and Helseth wasn't well liked as a ruler; but with House Telvanni in shambles (eruption of Red Mountain, Argonian invasion), Indoril probably greatly weakened (due to the loss of the Tribunal), and Dres probably almost completely wiped out (again, Argonian Invasion), he may not have enough enemies left to actually challenge his rule.

Edited August 26, 2012 by ClonePatrol

[Lachdonin]

The reason I say Karliah may have a claim to the throne of Morrowind (Mournhold) is because the discrepancy in the dates suggests Dralsi might have actually been the firstborn child, and among nobles the firstborn generally has the best (primary) inheritance. Helseth is generally believed to be the oldest and he's the current King of Mournhold (unless his was death was never mentioned) and his younger sister Morgiah is Queen of Wayrest (though Morgiah wanted Mournhold and they aren't on the best terms with each other, as tends to happen with ambitious noble children). Barenziah is/was largely retired from ruling, and while her death was never reported her exact whereabouts are unknown. Whether or not Karliah could take the throne from Helseth is hard to say since she'd need to obtain allies among the Great Houses and Helseth wasn't well liked as a ruler; but with House Telvanni in shambles (eruption of Red Mountain, Argonian invasion), Indoril probably greatly weakened (due to the loss of the Tribunal), and Dres probably almost completely wiped out (again, Argonian Invasion), he may not have enough enemies left to actually challenge his rule.

 

 

Redoran was almost destroyed by a Nordic invasion around the same time as the Oblivion Crisis, and Indoril, already weakened by its defeat at the hands of Hlaalu/Dres (Helseth's greatest victory) was apparently wiped out during said Oblivion Crisis (both pieces of information come from conversations in Oblivion) Telvanni was certianly wiped out by the Argonians (it was specificly targeted, after all) and as most of Dres holdings are no argonian, i would say they were as well. Which means, the only Great House remaining would be Hlaalu, which has always supported Helseth (despite some differances with a particular leader on Vardenfel).

 

Then theres the issue of the fact that the Throne of Morrowind is an Imperial institution, and there is no indication that it's really a hereditary possition, but rather one instituded by the Empire to put supporters in charge of the province. In fact, it seemed to opperate at odds with the Tribunal, who were the 'native' leaders of Morrowind, and doesn't fit in with the tribal-democratic leadership of the Houses. If anything, i'd argue that there is no legitimate Throne of Morrowind, let alone legitimate claims to it.

 

As for Barenziah, i've always tended to view the 'No more than 4' notation to be something of propiganda regarding her. It adds legitimacy to official children, makes her seem impressive (because of her fertility) but doesn't come right out and say it's impossible for her to have more. Considering her own penchant for schemes it's jsut as likely that she herself came up with it, since Elves tend to be rather insular when it comes to things like their history, medicine, magic, biology... Everything really.

[KarliahsSister3700]

Dralsi is actually the youngest child of Barenziah because Helseth and Morgiah were with Barenziah when they fled to the Imperial City while Drayven was the Emperor. Karliah does know that she is a descendent of Barenziah and Drayven because she tells you sometime during the quests. Dralsi Indoril is the youngest and second heir to the throne of Morrowind because if Helseth dies and has no heirs Morgiah takes the throne then Dralsi is moved to second in line. Also if you don't know Karliah has purple eyes because she is the only Dunmer in history to break free of Azura's curse placed on the whole of Dunmers (or Chimer known back then) when one of Karliah's descendants Neverar Indoril was murdered and some of his soldiers used some God tools to try and the Dwemer at the battle of Red Mountain. Azura found out and came down, screaming a curse to the skies which turned all Chimers skin dark as ash and eyes red as blood when they told her they don't worship her as a Daderic Prince anymore. The last Chimer was Neverar Indoril, who had a pregnant wife (who was Almalexia from the DLC of Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, Tribunal) at the time. The baby came out looking like a Dark Elf but still was Chimer. It carried on her/his family line and ended up at Karliah, who was able to break the curse on herself when she was born. So that is why Karliah has purple eyes and that she is related to a Goddess, a Queen and a Chimer.

 

Unrelavent but I thought you should all know.

[LobselVith66]

Dralsi is actually the youngest child of Barenziah because Helseth and Morgiah were with Barenziah when they fled to the Imperial City while Drayven was the Emperor. Karliah does know that she is a descendent of Barenziah and Drayven because she tells you sometime during the quests. Dralsi Indoril is the youngest and second heir to the throne of Morrowind because if Helseth dies and has no heirs Morgiah takes the throne then Dralsi is moved to second in line. Also if you don't know Karliah has purple eyes because she is the only Dunmer in history to break free of Azura's curse placed on the whole of Dunmers (or Chimer known back then) when one of Karliah's descendants Neverar Indoril was murdered and some of his soldiers used some God tools to try and the Dwemer at the battle of Red Mountain. Azura found out and came down, screaming a curse to the skies which turned all Chimers skin dark as ash and eyes red as blood when they told her they don't worship her as a Daderic Prince anymore. The last Chimer was Neverar Indoril, who had a pregnant wife (who was Almalexia from the DLC of Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, Tribunal) at the time. The baby came out looking like a Dark Elf but still was Chimer. It carried on her/his family line and ended up at Karliah, who was able to break the curse on herself when she was born. So that is why Karliah has purple eyes and that she is related to a Goddess, a Queen and a Chimer.

 

Unrelavent but I thought you should all know.

Hardly irrelevant when you're addressing Karliah. I'm glad you added your input. Given the revelations in "Dragonborn", I don't think Karliah would be an heir. Morrowind seems to be independent of the Empire now, with Hlaalu losing it's status as a Great House due to their past ties to the Empire.

[serenityswillow]

It is also known that Helseth and Barenziah's survival during the Dunmer-Argonian War and the Oblivion Crisis are unknown. But there is a chance they died during the Dunmer-Argonian War in the Fourth Era 5-6 as that is when the war started and began and no one has seen them since then. On Helseth's wiki page it does say he rules from Blacklight during Skyrim, so either he is still alive and Barenziah is dead or both of them are alive.