Reforming the in-game economy

[Odai]

The first discussion can be found below

 

This link to the UESP pertains to the in game economy so that it can be referenced in the making of a Mod. Hopefully, if the mod is successful this information can find itself integrated into future BGS productions

 

If you are wondering about the smugglers list and what it is all about see here.

http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=32888

 

WARNING a large wall of heavy reading awaits you should you enter that thread.

 

This thread is separated as to maintain organization and since this thread in fact holds its own discussion worth having.

 

I also am trying to pull from both TES communities to expand on presented ideas. I personally am incapable of creating the mod, but hopefully this series of posts and threads can be referenced as a springboard.

 

The end result of these discussions should ideally be a range value for items in the TES universe that doesnt break the economy. The Smugglers List.

For a more detailed (and heavy) read please look through the above link.

 

 

Before we can establish a value for items in a TES style universe, there are a series of big picture questions that need to be addressed. Once we have these main concepts worked out we can figure out a way to determine value based on 8 values that ignore player preference.

 

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The main issues and ideas come from 12 categories. If you think of something different please post it below, WE ARENT ASKING FOR IDEAS YET.

 

1. Enemies being equally well equipped as the player vs enemies needing to provide proficient challenge vs not wanting to wait to get better then return

 

2. Merchants not having "good" equipment vs rewards for completing dungeons/ quests vs people not having things worth stealing

 

3. Being able to carry large equipment w/o storage vs high value loot that the player doesnt use

 

4. Clutter in chests vs treasure in chests vs number of chests

 

5. Lockpicking being player-based vs in-game skill based vs some combo of the two vs alternate ways to breach sealed doors. (provides access to higher level loot that would be worth having, but when it is player based a skilled player can open high level locks with little in-game skill, vs game skill based preventing the player entirely from trying to disengage locks.

 

6. Vaults and hoards / placed items vs leveled loot/ random items

 

7. expensive loot vs effective loot

 

8. Merchant funds, leveled random loot, and countertop items vs set items, varying funds, world item rotation.

 

9. Artisan specialization/ varying quality (skyforge steel or adamantium armor) vs generalized merchants and standard quality

 

10. Repair equipment vs improve equipment vs standard equipment

 

11. Merchant standard supply vs world workplace supply (use lumbermill -> more variation in wood-based items, work glass mine-> more glass items at merchants)

 

12. Player encumbrance vs storage space vs categorical space (pouches for potions, weapon sheathes, straps...etc)

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The first topic that we are discussing is Lockpicking UESP DISCUSSION

Feel free to post ideas and opinions here, but know that the ideas placed here will be viewed less often (3x a week) then in the UESP.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Odai

[Stemin]

How did you determine that these things all fell under "economy" ?

[Odai]

How did you determine that these things all fell under "economy" ?

 

Because of the basis of economics itself.

 

Value is determined by 2 main elements. Supply and Demand.

 

Then I asked just how complicated can we really make the economy in a game? We dont need a stock exchange, or to have a constantly fluctuating barter rate...etc

 

So what I went through are the major keypoints.

A: How wealth is found.

B: How wealth is accessed.

C: How wealth is moved.

D: How wealth is distributed.

E: How value is created/ lost

Where the term "wealth" refers to any asset that holds value (monetary, technical or sentimental) in the game (bounty quests, armor, training, mercenaries, money itself...etc)

 

So each of the 12 arguments deals with one of the main points.

A: 1, 4, 6

B: 2, 5,

C: 3, 12

D: 8, 11

E: 7, 9, 10

 

If you can think of any other means of doing one of those 5 things that ALREADY EXISTS in the game and has an alternative that might be preferable please let me know

Edited August 27, 2012 by Odai

[Odai]

Please allow me to further explain the arguments present in the 12 since many look similar.

 

1. Enemies being equally well equipped as the player vs enemies needing to provide proficient challenge vs not wanting to wait to get better then return

We have 3 complaints in TES games. Places being too challenging, and discouraging return (Morrowind), enemies being equally equipped (ideal challenge, but the player doesnt feel progression . Oblivion), or enemies not providing enough challenge (no challenge = no fun. Some places in between "leveled" ranges in Skyrim)

 

This falls under how wealth is found.

- If everyone is a challenge, then most of the time they have better stuff than you, but you cant compete.

- If the enemies level with you, you gain no benefit from beating them. This also breaks the economy by providing high level loot to high level players giving them access to money that they didnt need in the first place because they already have the equipment needed to compete.

- If occasionally you arent challenged there isnt any incentive to going there. Low level= low loot.

2. Merchants not having "good" equipment vs rewards for completing dungeons/ quests vs people not having things worth stealing

 

There are many ways to play TES games. But it really comes down to 3 types. Explorers, Questers and roleplayers (that dont fall into the other 2). I believe that the player should be equally rewarded for exploring, questing or just doing whatever they want.

An explorer is in the game for finding new things and experiencing the world (not for finding that sword in some pit [not that they dont enjoy that])

A quester is in the game for acquiring items that increase their chance of survival as they face new difficult challenges.

A roleplayer is typically a player who specializes in a narrow field of play (mage, agent, housewife) where restrictions are "imagined". So Ii believe that there should be a series of assignments that are have rewards for these type of players. Not necessarily "quests" that would be found in a journal, but options that provide their own challenges that are tailored to these playforms. (In morrowind they had slave trader and antislave "factions" and there were certain quest givers that specialized in certain types of quests (dwarven ruins vs alchemical ingredients) .

 

There needs to be a way to balance the way that "better" goods and "necessary" goods are accessed in every environment. (an alchemist's personal supply, a mage's guild warehouse, going out and killing mages, a quest to go find ingredients... etc. If you want to be a locksmith, the economy for licks, opening doors quests, keys, training and other faucets need to be addressed, accessible, and economical.

 

3. Being able to carry large equipment w/o storage vs high value loot that the player doesnt use

By providing an encumbrance, the player can hold a large amount of merchandise without actually needing it. Its a matter of value per weight unit. And whether or not a player will drop you in favor of something else. By limiting the amount that the player can hold, it forces the player to only acquire things of value to the player. A mage no longer will be taking a bow home just for the sake of it. A warrior wont bring back every chestpiece his foes wore today. By limiting the space, we can limit what is moved.

 

4. Clutter in chests vs treasure in chests vs number of chests

How many chests in a dungeon? More chests = more chance that you will find something you need. More chests also means less valuable things. This is both how wealth is found and how it is (small scale) distributed. If a player intends to sell everything they find, it doesnt matter if its 3 steel swords in 3 chests or 1 dwarven one in the boss chest. If the player wont use it and the value is the same, why spread it out? Of course in that example weight does play a factor, but that falls into the 3rd category.

 

5. Lockpicking being player-based vs in-game skill based vs some combo of the two vs alternate ways to breach sealed doors. (provides access to higher level loot that would be worth having, but when it is player based a skilled player can open high level locks with little in-game skill, vs game skill based preventing the player entirely from trying to disengage locks.

 

This is obviously tied to economics. If anyone can access it, why bother with the lock in the first place? If "better" stuff is there, then at least make the system of value to dedicate some time (and perks) to.

 

6. Vaults and hoards / placed items vs leveled loot/ random items

Should the world revolve around you, or should you be thrown into an existing world? In morrowind vaults with ebony armor existed under lock key and 24 hr surveillance. If you wanted the good stuff, you could see where it was. It wouldnt show up randomly in some chest somewhere, you had to buy it, steal it, or kill/ work for it. Whereas oblivion and skyrim have hard enemies late in the game. If you fight these well equipped enemies, then chances are you are already better equipped than them. There is always challenge, but never risk.

 

7. expensive loot vs effective loot

Why should a silver sword be worth ~ as much as a steekl one? Steel made for superior weapons, but silver is silver, and should be valued for what it is made of, not just how good it is.

 

8. Merchant funds, leveled random loot, and countertop items vs set items, varying funds, world item rotation.

Should a merchant's inventory be set from the beginning of the game? (Morrowind you knew where you could buy orcish or draugh armor from your first level, whether or not you could buy it was a different notion). Should merchant inventory be leveled? Or should you always have the option of buying nice things? Should the items be what you see before you always? Or should NPCs buy the items, or should they circulate throughout the world. [make dragonbone weapons? sell them? now a bandit nearby has them]

 

9. Artisan specialization/ varying quality (skyforge steel or adamantium armor) vs generalized merchants and standard quality

Should merchants have something unique about them? One guy is good with steel weapons (higher quality than can be found anywhere else), or girl can make shields 2x as good as anyone else, one elf can make equally strong armor with 1/2 the weight, a bandit in a cave makes weapons with engravings and gems in the hilt.) Or should the items in the game be standardized and simplified?

 

10. Repair equipment vs improve equipment vs standard equipment

Should the player/ NPCs be able to improve/ repair equipment? Or should equipment "adjustment" be perk related (make armor of 1/2 weight, make arrows that fly straighter, make tower shields, use 1/2 as much supplies, ...etc)

 

11. Merchant standard supply vs world workplace supply (use lumbermill -> more variation in wood-based items, work glass mine-> more glass items at merchants)

A town in the middle of nowhere has crazy good items... sounds weird to me. A town near a glass mine has more glass related merchandise (jars, bowls, silverware, helmets, jewelry...etc) that makes more sense.

 

12. Player encumbrance vs storage space vs categorical space (pouches for potions, weapon sheathes, straps...etc)

Should the player have a "set" cap on what they can and cant carry? Or should they have to buy/ perk their way to more storage? Should that storage be categorized so that players who want more potions have to buy (probably rare) better pouches to carry them.