Please vote no on Proposition 8

[Michlo]

Thank you, all.

 

I believe it is just too hard for people like Dark0ne to understand since they've not had to live in a world they're not a full member of.

 

Cheers.

 

Michlo--

 

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with that one mate.

I dont know you, or Robin or anyone on this site other than what they may share...which is a far from complete picture. I agree with some of your ideals...I dont agree with some of the ways you have chosen to share them. How do you know how Robin lives? Are you flatmates? I could be a complete freak...a hump on my back..or I could be tall, blonde, beautiful and perfect...who knows.

 

I DO know that the world is a mirror my friend...and often the thing you find most disagreeable about others is the same thing you find disagreeable in yourself.

 

Lets keep this more of a generalized intellectual debate can we?

 

Understood.

[Aeryn333]

Thank you, all.

 

I believe it is just too hard for people like Dark0ne to understand since they've not had to live in a world they're not a full member of.

 

Cheers.

 

I agree with Lisn, about how to approach this sensitive subject when there are those of us directly effected by it..and keep this general not pointed at anyone.. age and wisdom shows us, that it is by diplomatic discussions, and those who cannot hear, walk away from...with pride..it can be hard at times, but it can be done..la

 

On saying that I also understood what you meant..How can a white man know how it is to be black, and how can people who have always had their rights as straight members of society know what its like to live in the Gay, Bi, Trans-gender world, a world of prejudice, and hate..and sometimes violence..where our rights are up for vote..or dictated by a countries religious majority..They can't.

 

But not one of us can point at any one person, and know who they are, or what they have experienced ..

We can only share our own pain, experience, hopes, and hope, others hear, and maybe open alittle..

 

This debate though hard in places, has been better than any I have seen in a long time, that says something..positive I think...la

 

Cheers mate

 

 

 

 

[Michlo]

Thank you, all.

 

I believe it is just too hard for people like Dark0ne to understand since they've not had to live in a world they're not a full member of.

 

Cheers.

 

I agree with Lisn, about how to approach this sensitive subject when there are those of us directly effected by it..and keep this general not pointed at anyone.. age and wisdom shows us, that it is by diplomatic discussions, and those who cannot hear, walk away from...with pride..it can be hard at times, but it can be done..la

 

On saying that I also understood what you meant..How can a white man know how it is to be black, and how can people who have always had their rights as straight members of society know what its like to live in the Gay, Bi, Trans-gender world, a world of prejudice, and hate..and sometimes violence..where our rights are up for vote..or dictated by a countries religious majority..They can't.

 

But not one of us can point at any one person, and know who they are, or what they have experienced ..

We can only share our own pain, experience, hopes, and hope, others hear, and maybe open alittle..

 

This debate though hard in places, has been better than any I have seen in a long time, that says something..positive I think...la

 

Cheers mate

 

 

 

 

 

Well put, m'dear and I agree.

 

Cheers.

[Vagrant0]

That arguement is borderline on bringing back the "separate but equal" logic. Even though under the law they may be identical, in people's minds they will likely never be.

 

 

Myrmaad: There's the second side. :)

Yes, but until a behavior becomes sanctioned by law, it will never become acceptable to individuals since they will always use the existance of the law as justification for why that behavior is unacceptable. Unfortunately in the time between when something becomes sanctioned and accepted, the law can be changed a dozen times. But, progress cannot happen unless both parties are willing to accept some concessions in order to keep it accepted. Half the problem is really making the other side willing to listen, and that can only be done with small steps.

 

Radical activism just does not work, and only creates backlash. Most of those with anti-gay sentiments only have them because they have been forced to deal with those issues personally. Either it was some kid in school who was a bit different, ant they wanted to do all they could to not also be labeled as different (out of fear usually) or it is because they see the public and advertized acts taken by those people to be an affront to their own personal values. I'm not suggesting that the closeted queer method is the best, but certainly the "out and proud" method causes more harm than it solves since people characterize ALL homosexual behavior as what they see on TV, or parades. There are plenty of people who have found a middle ground, aim to live a lifestyle which is not too different from a straight lifestyle, and deserve equal rights. The problem is that that brand of homosexual is rarely seen. Much of the oposition to homosexuals is because of these perceptions. The sad truth is that many people believe that gays are just constantly having sex with eachother, or are by proxy, pedophiles. The acts of homosexuals in the clergy and political office only seem to strengthen this perception. And what's worse, some homosexuals are adopting this sort of "steriotypical gay" bahavior just because they percieve that as being part of the homosexual identity. To my knowledge, there are no studies linking the presence of a lisp, or preference for flannel with sexual feelings for the same gender. These traits are adopted by individuals, sometimes unconsciously, as a way of conforming with their social subset. They don't act like a "breeder" because they don't want to be seen as a "breeder" or as catering to "breeder society" by their own groups.

 

How this applies to gay marriage is because most of the actions taken so far have been assults on certain pillars of belief. The law as it stands does not exist so much for the granting of equal rights as it does for annoying conservative groups who have to accept those laws. It's not a "we want to be judged as equals" movement so much as it is a "we're in your church, kissing eachother, and you can't stop us" movement. Or atleast that's how I see it. The tragedy of this is that many people are being forced into going along with these movements under the impression that it is a real step forward.

 

All I'm saying it that something called a "Joint Rights and Ownership Act" would have a better chance of being passed, and remaining in the books than any of these "gay marriage" laws. The rights granted under both could be virtually the same, you just can't design such a law so closely to any single group.

[Aeryn333]

Something is screwy tonight it would not let me post, when I treod too. it showed up with two blank pages with naught but my name sorry..for double post..finally it posted

[Aeryn333]

@Vagrant0

With my dyslexia the only way i can write this reply is bold you, and reply in blue after..I read through all of yours, I hope for the same civil courtesy I afforded you ...TA

 

Radical activism just does not work, and only creates backlash.. I'm not suggesting that the closeted queer method is the best, but certainly the "out and proud" method causes more harm than it solves since people characterize ALL homosexual behavior as what they see on TV, or parades.

 

Activism is the only thing that works to get ones Rights, if that were not so Ireland would still be enslaved to England.., Martin Luther King in his famous speech said the only way to get ones Rights, is to be seen, to be proud to shout it out loud..Out and Proud, Black and Proud..ect…If people characterised the behaviour that they seen in the past by a few extremists and all cultures have them , then all culture incl your own would be up for judgement by the actions of a few..All cultures have their eccentrics, as does yours, but they still have their Rights also..

 

Those that have a problem, that's really their problem, with those few, is not ours as a whole....The point, do we Lesbians always agree with our brothers no we do not, but we support their right to march as they see fit, does it hurt the cause, some feel it does, its why lesbian separatist groups started but this is all very old news…This is not the Gay pride marches of this era..I also take offence of the usage of the words "closted queers"…it's a derogatory slang word, and is as bad as calling a black person a angel..lets keep it civil, and please I ask you refrain from using derogatory slang if you will..

 

There are plenty of people who have found a middle ground, aim to live a lifestyle which is not too different from a straight lifestyle, and deserve equal rights. The problem is that that brand of homosexual is rarely seen. Much of the oposition to homosexuals is because of these perceptions.

 

Middle ground is that its OK to be Gay as long as we can't be seen ,who are these people you talk about who walk a 'middle ground' those who hide they are Gay....seen and not heard is that it..its just a kind of broader closet That does nothing to give a minority their Rights proven fact..The Civil Rights movement was all but quiet..and it got results..Others perceptions are their problems not ours..as I said if you found a few extremist, you cannot blame an entire minority on those extremist …..

 

The sad truth is that many people believe that gays are just constantly having sex with eachother, or are by proxy, pedophiles. The acts of homosexuals in the clergy and political office only seem to strengthen this perception.

 

Aye I know that's all that's on our minds..We are just sex machines with a on button that's never off..is really archaic and scary perception.. Our sex drive is no less greater or lesser than anyones, not that is any of your business, or should be a topic of poltical conversation.., do I ask you or wonder how many times a day, you have sex and with how many..…Actually Lesbians are very balanced healthy and normal in their sexual lives..We do not view all womyn as prey….sorry to disappoint you...And if you did any recent research, or read any studies you'd find the majority of paedophiles are middle age married men..Aye that's right lad…not gay men..

 

And to date there has been no proof that these 'Catholic priests' were gay men.. paedophilia, like rape, is not based on sex at all, nor sexual prefrence..its based on control and power, and access, they had access to altar boys,if their were altar girls,in the church, then you might find, more girls molested as well as boys..Do your research and come into this decade lad..

 

And what's worse, some homosexuals are adopting this sort of "steriotypical gay" bahavior just because they percieve that as being part of the homosexual identity. To my knowledge, there are no studies linking the presence of a lisp, or preference for flannel with sexual feelings for the same gender. These traits are adopted by individuals, sometimes unconsciously, as a way of conforming with their social subset. They don't act like a "breeder" because they don't want to be seen as a "breeder" or as catering to "breeder society" by their own groups.

 

How would you like it if laws for you were denied on the rare few, who exhibited immature or irrational behaviours..I've known some pretty together flaming gays also…perhaps their flaunting was their way to get others to realise they are here to stay, who's to judge their reasons, not you..whether it was Gay pride action, or just flaunting..Ok so there are thee eccentrics of the Gay movement..and so…your point..

 

There are some eccentric heterosexuals who are simply labelled eccentric and still have their Rights..Not one of your examples are good logical reasons to deny a people their Rights..!!!!

 

There are seemingly fear based ones, or judgemental ones, based on what.. what a few people may have exhibited in the whole of this culture..

It's not a "we want to be judged as equals" movement so much as it is a "we're in your church, kissing eachother, and you can't stop us" movement. Or atleast that's how I see it. The tragedy of this is that many people are being forced into going along with these movements under the impression that it is a real step forward.

 

That is absolute as we say here shite..….It is about equal rights, there is no Gays or Lesbians I know that want to kiss in public, or church none the less..and have that attitude..Goddess where do you get your information..it is scary and archaic I am sorry to say, but it really is..la

All I'm saying it that something called a "Joint Rights and Ownership Act" would have a better chance of being passed, and remaining in the books than any of these "gay marriage" laws. The rights granted under both could be virtually the same, you just can't design such a law so closely to any single group.

 

Your suggested Law, is that going to give a couple that's been together for say 20 years the right to hold the hand of their dying spouse in a hospital that they have no right to be in the room for they are not family..is it going to give rights to say a lesbian couple where one has had children with them or before they met and helped raise that child and in that child eyes is their other parent, only to be taken away if the birth mother dies for under the law this other parent also has no rights at all to that child, to the proven detriment to both the other mother and the child that deems her so..

 

I could go on, its more than about property Rights, and Ownership laws, its about all the Rights afforded any married couple..

 

Now I kept this civil..la…Like even though I am seething inside a bit, because some of the stuff you wrote as I said a few times, is archaic and scary..Like I kept it civil I expect the same…la

 

Edited to add one of my favourite quote by an American very outspoken proud activists..

 

"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation and social standing, never can bring about a reform. Those who are really in earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation, and publicly and privately, in season and out, avow their sympathy with despised and persecuted ideas and their advocates, and bear the consequences." Susan B Anthony

[dezdimona]

Activism got women the right to vote in the U.S.

There will always be those who will bring any subject to the public eye just for 15 minutes of fame.

Public flaunting of one's sexuality,by outlandish behavior does hurt a cause,on that I agree.

But also, "having a personal experience" (I know thats not exact) that prompts negative or violent behavior towards a gay,lesbian or transsexual,is just plain naive thinking.

I've been called names strickly for my skin tone and my ethnic background by people with no knowledge of me other than seeing me!

[Ethre]

Activism also got anywhere from 200 to 3000 (guess what, the low end one's from the Chinese govt. ;) ) pro democracy supporters massacred in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

 

But also, "having a personal experience" that prompts negative or violent behavior towards a gay,lesbian or transsexual,is just plain naive thinking.

 

Not really, it happens. What was the name of the kid in california? From what I've read, he pushed things real far - now he's dead.

 

Edit: I found it. "Larry King". Looks like he got used by the assistant principle to promote her agenda. Here's the Newsweek link: Newsweek Cover Story

[Aeryn333]

Activism also got anywhere from 200 to 3000 (guess what, the low end one's from the Chinese govt. ;) ) pro democracy supporters massacred in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

 

But also, "having a personal experience" that prompts negative or violent behavior towards a gay,lesbian or transsexual,is just plain naive thinking.

 

Not really, it happens. What was the name of the kid in california? From what I've read, he pushed things real far - now he's dead.

 

Edit: I found it. "Larry King". Looks like he got used by the assistant principle to promote her agenda. Here's the Newsweek link: Newsweek Cover Story

 

As I said there will always be the extremists..or just the plain eccentric..that is not a crime in your culture those that dress eccentrically .. why is it in ours..That gives no one the right to perpetrate a hate crime against them..just because you do not like the way they look..As a lesbian I think the flaunting ones sexuality in public is very unwise.....but then so is it heterosexuals also unwise to flaunt their sexuality in public,..

Now if were just talking about the way one dresses..that is a complex issue..For transsexuals, who are going through the operation, one requirement is they must live a year as the other sex, they are surgically becoming to, dress like them, and that means publicly, whilst in counselling , before the surgery will even begin..

 

If your talking about teens, or the eccentric in our community ..As one becomes older and wiser, that usually is learnt, but immaturity has no age sometimes..But does it deserve violence never!!!!!!

Like at the same time, I support my brothers right to be, and they do not deserve to be killed as this young boy was simply because he may have been immature, to the way the country has become again..for reasons I will leave unsaid.....yet seems to our eyes over here that America right now seems to have it in for womyns as well as gay..Rights..this spills over into peoples thinking..Like eh kids, coming out that have not yet learnt about caution..There is never a justification for a hate crime..

 

As for the causalities of Activism, we know that here in Ireland very well..la.., every one would still,agree.it was the right thing to do...my DA was an Activist of sorts a Fenian, he died in my arms, fighting for what he believed in..and I still believe that Activism is then only way to get ones Goddess/God given Right To Be!!!!!, not to, crawl back into a hole of slavery..to others perceptions of how you should be..There is always the chance of casualties against those who protest. Martin Luther King is an example. So is our hero Micheal Collins..they fought for peace!!!

Should then one cower back, no, to get ones rights the activism must go on, through the tragedies ...Black movement did..after his death. Citing examples of it turning bad, does not justify that Activism is bad..

 

[humanbean234]

Post-Mortem: Prop. 8 passed, with 52.5% of the vote.

 

Source: http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/map190000000008.html