Noob navmesh question

[hereami]

I guess, Large Actor is a property used in conjunction with special navmesh fragments, but if navmesh is fully absent then it has no meaning. Anyway, there's no such correlation in what i see.

 

Watching NPC happily running on just plain terrain causes confusion and rightful question about redundancy of Navmesh as a subsystem, that's the main point. Though AI segregation might be some clue when researching how to extend emergency behaviour onto casual pathfinding, if any of reverse engineers happens to advance that far, assuming there's nothing relevant known for now inside ini-s or else.

[niston]

Navmesh triangles can be flagged "no large actor".

My guess is that, if a race has "use large actor pathing", the AI will not try to traverse such triangles.

[South8028]

I guess, Large Actor is a property used in conjunction with special navmesh fragments, but if navmesh is fully absent then it has no meaning. Anyway, there's no such correlation in what i see.

 

Watching NPC happily running on just plain terrain causes confusion and rightful question about redundancy of Navmesh as a subsystem, that's the main point. Though AI segregation might be some clue when researching how to extend emergency behaviour onto casual pathfinding, if any of reverse engineers happens to advance that far, assuming there's nothing relevant known for now inside ini-s or else.

navmesh with ce is a havok collision. You can create a navmesh not only in ck, but also in 3ds by selecting the navmesh collision type for the mesh. Maybe some npc's can use other types of collisions to navigate other than navmesh.

[hereami]

It's unfortunate when this collision isn't embedded inside terrain and every model, that's essentially supposed to represent a surface to step on. Let's say buildable floors, they still have Navmesh data attached, as i understand, instead of just be "floor" by themselves.

[South8028]

It's unfortunate when this collision isn't embedded inside terrain and every model, that's essentially supposed to represent a surface to step on. Let's say buildable floors, they still have Navmesh data attached, as i understand, instead of just be "floor" by themselves.

we are talking about the movement of some npc, able to organize firefights and move without navmesh. Did you talk about such cases?

[hereami]

Well, in what regards combat rage, i don't think i'd express that as if their actions don't rely on any collision in sense of navigational reference, except whatever algorithm that prevents NPC from falling through surface, i.e. basic support reaction. More like as if move just where the feet drag them.

That's interesting point about collision recognition segregation, but again, what's the purpose then, i'd rather suggest there's just one paradigm for pathfinding shared among all NPC.

Edited March 21, 2023 by hereami

[South8028]

Well, in what regards combat rage, i don't think i'd express that as if their actions don't rely on any collision in sense of navigational reference, except whatever algorithm that prevents NPC from falling through surface, i.e. basic support reaction. More like as if move just where the feet drag them.

That's interesting point about collision recognition segregation, but again, what's the purpose then, i'd rather suggest there's just one paradigm for pathfinding shared among all NPC.

NPCs can use workshop items as cover. Accordingly, in combat, they can use other types of collisions (not navmesh) for navigation? Navmesh is used in ce not because navigation is impossible without it. But because navmesh makes it possible to flexibly adjust ai. If bethesda wanted to, they could easily do away with the navmesh system altogether. All npc's will just use any collisions to navigate.But then the havok physics will gobble up all computing resources. Because a collision capable of serving both support and navigation should be more high-poly. Edited March 21, 2023 by South8028

[hereami]

Ok, some clarity. Although in my understanding could be similar to Preferred path - regular navmesh is used whenever Preferred is insufficient to reach destination or is absent, just keep any collision type, identified as suitable for walking, as failsafe lowest layer in the stack always, still allows flexibility in management around pre-designed areas and would be actually helpful for cases of deficient navmesh, instead of unnatural warping. But well, we have what have and still it's a great toy, if honestly.

 

Since there is some inconsistency, it's not clear if the way it works now is exactly intended or not, unless there's a traceable correlation in Combat styles maybe. If to consider processing resources, looks like most expensive pathing algorithm engages exactly in a heavy situation like combat. Either it's not that demanding or possibly i'm overestimating combat AI demands against marvellous Sandbox, for example, and overall load is nearly equal.

Edited March 21, 2023 by hereami

[South8028]

Ok, some clarity. Although in my understanding could be similar to Preferred path - regular navmesh is used whenever Preferred is insufficient to reach destination or is absent, just keep any collision type, identified as suitable for walking, as failsafe lowest layer in the stack always, still allows flexibility in management around pre-designed areas and would be actually helpful for cases of deficient navmesh, instead of unnatural warping. But well, we have what have and still it's a great toy, if honestly.

 

Since there is some inconsistency, it's not clear if the way it works now is exactly intended or not, unless there's a traceable correlation in Combat styles maybe. If to consider processing resources, looks like most expensive pathing algorithm engages exactly in a heavy situation like combat. Either it's not that demanding or possibly i'm overestimating combat AI demands against marvellous Sandbox, for example, and overall load is nearly equal.

they try to make collisions as primitive as possible in order to remove the load of physics. In many cases, a navmesh has more vertices than other ground/floor collisions. Navmesh is the easiest way. All games use navmeshes, or navigation nodes (variable paths for ai). But we can see that ai in fo4 is not very advanced. Characters often run into walls. With a large number of npc is not able to calculate the path at all. The combat system is also mediocre. You can walk and kill npc just by looking at the monitor with one eye and whistling merrily. In general, I like building and rendering in fo4. But there is no ai in fo4. It just exists for the plot and nothing more. Such an ai doesn't need any complicated navigation methods.

[hereami]

I suppose, successful navmesh may be as simple as only two triangles covering entire room, doesn't need be complex unless there is noticeable height difference or else reasonable requirements.

 

Combat AI isn't bad i'd say, depends on how styles are tuned. After all it's not a military training simulation. Main purpose is "fun" and Bethesda does great. What i'm only missing is an idiot Companion following and chilling around no-less-idiot Player outside of map borders, so, handmade navmesh concept is my hatred number one along all sorts of navigation restrictions for player as well, like borders and path tunnels in open space - worst what may happen in game design.

 

Ok, thanks for explanations. By the way, that's amazing stuff you're manufacturing.

Edited March 21, 2023 by hereami