New Game Dynamic: NO FIREARMS!

[africanwarhead]

Yeah VaultPi is making the point that these materials aren't rare, in fact they are everywhere. Heck you can make a gun out of a pipe;

 

http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/homemadezipgun.jpg

 

You can make gunpowder with salt and a cold pack. Man is very creative when it comes to finding ways to kill each other.

 

You also have a region that is flush with weaponry, and is a significant part of the Mojave's character, especially the western weapons (like 45-70 for example).

 

Yeah ok, you're right there. I'd bet there are more ways, but how would this knowhow be passed on down the generations in such a anarchical world? Would that be maintained despite the situation? Plus, firearms would become simpler without the complicated machines around, like the pipe gun you're showing above. Making something like an AR15 is not easy with a simple workbench. You'd be looking at a simple bolt action rifle at most. I think if I were in that situation, I'd probably have a gun like that, but still, knives, arrows and swords would become more important, especially in close combat. Like with in the 17th century, the blunderbuss and the sword. Just brainstormin' :)

 

All this tells me you need to change your local. You wouldn't have a arctic mod based in southern CA right? So maybe a isolated valley or other region separated from the Mojave, where the knowledge/skills/materials were lost. Then you could actually craft a plausible scenario that would fit everything you detailed above. You could really emphasize your ideas and take them to even higher levels. For instance some of the inhabitants could be on the level of Sparta and their advanced training and conditioning, would make the legion look soft by comparison.

 

Like those legionnaires chucking spears at me while I'm returning fire with my minigun haha. No i'd consider it more of a challenge to do the Goodsprings Fight with melee / swords. Half of all the Goodsprings characters might die in the process... So what situation might be plausible in the Mojave. What about the simple loss of the knowhow, and this is the point where it gets rediscovered by the van Graffs? etc..

 

But regarding the pipboy, it isn't what actually transports you, it's just a graphic for choosing your location. It's also self-contained/powered, there is no reason to replace it and if you do your asking for serious trouble. You won't be able to switch weapons (other than the ones you'v hotkey'd), drop items, read notes etc etc. Best to leave it alone.

 

Yeah I know, but a pipboy in a world of swords? So you're right, it cannot go, but perhaps make it like a little map / booklet?

 

Despite the reason why the firearms are gone, I just think it would be a very interesting new way to go through the game.

[africanwarhead]

except that your average prospector will find tons of that material in the sewers of your average ruined city....

what? gunpowder??

 

You can even make potassium nitrate from urin. It's used by some horse owners so it's in feed and stock shops, it's used in fertilizers, model rockets, etc etc it's all over the place. And that's just black powder, it doesn't even touch on smokeless. In fact any propellant with similar qualities. Found some dynamite? Guess what you can do with the nitrocellulose in it and some parafin?

 

Plus your ignoring the huge amount of firearms & ammunition private citizens in a pre-war, paranoid, fallout world stocked, national guard armories, active military bases, police stations, gun shops etc etc etc. We have firearms and ammo over a 100 years old that still fire today......and those were made with a process far more primitive than modern arms and ammunition. Imagine how far we will get in 6 more decades (the date of fallout's apocalypse).

 

The boomers have munitions up the ying yang, from small arms up to teh largest heavy artillery. The NCR and to a lesser extant the gun runners, manufacturer munitions. Can you imagine how many tons of smokless powder the NCR produces each day to supply the republic?

 

Gunpowder was discovered and in use by as early as the 9th century, certainly by the 11th. Do you really want to try and defend the assertion taht the Mojave as is more technologically primitive than an age where viking weaponry was the height of quality. What about the B.O.S, or Hoover damn, or the strip? If you stop and consider for a moment, I think you'll see that a new local is the way to go, instead of rewriting so much of the mojave, that you won't have much of anything left.

 

I guess where there's a will, there's a way. I live in Africa and I know, people get very creative. The 'character of the Mojave' has been mentioned here and there already, that a lack of firearms is thus unthinkable. Ok so the potential to make gunpowder and explosives is there, now what would stop people from making firearms, with all that stuff lying about?

 

What if all firearms were radioactive due to the fallout? That would restrict everyone to using newly manufactured, therefore simpler firearms, made either from scratch, or from parts found in non-radioactive areas? just brainstormin'

[africanwarhead]

Melee combat in this game is nowhere near good enough to support this.

 

that's true, but that wouldn't put me off the idea. You can still chuck spears, shoot arrows. Things will be different anyhow, its not like with guns, where you can just blast away at a "safe" distance (unless you're good with a bow and arrow), you'd have to come close with a very sharp sword (and jump around a lot). I'm sure a few tweaks in the GECK could make it more interesting, plus, extra animations could probably be made.

 

In any case, you're going to get wounded, so you always need medical kits on you. You need to know when to pull out, run like hell... etc... you'd think twice before picking a fight.

Edited October 1, 2012 by africanwarhead

[Ladez]

If you want my honest opinion, then hell no. I kind of agree with Quetzlsacatanango that the melee combat in the game is just too bad for the game to be all melee.

 

What I would rather see is a mod that makes all firearms (except for a only a few low-damage pistols) exceptionally rare as well as the ammunition for them. There are some mods that boasts about making ammuniton rarer, but somehow I always end up with s***-loads of it anyways. Except for a few bosses and tougher enemies, there should be no guns, and those that were there should be in horrible condition, with a revamped repair system to make it harder to repair them. I wouldn't mind going melee, but I would mind being totally restricted to it.

 

So in short, no.

[devinpatterson]

What I would rather see is a mod that makes all firearms (except for a only a few low-damage pistols) exceptionally rare as well as the ammunition for them.

 

Something akin to teh book of eli flick? There's still rusty firearms about, but apparently people have forgotten how to make gunpowder (or reloaders) so every bullet has to count and most combat is hand to hand.

 

I still think Africanwarhead should move it to an isolated valley/region or some such, since he's going to have an area with advanced surviving tech on the west coast (the strip, hoover damn, BOS) but not 9th century gunpowder. Hard to imagine the BOS can service and repair power armor, but the basic components of smokeless is beyond them, or even black powder. Same with the tech and know how to keep a massive facility like hoover or the strip going.

 

Africanwarhead I understand where your trying to go with this, and maybe it's just too much work to make your own region/area, if that's the case I understand. But realistically everyone that's replied doesn't like the idea, at least not in the Mojave. But make a plausible reason for the loss of gunpowder (isolated and lost knowledge, religious or ascetic laws) and place the player in that new region and you can have a successful execution of your idea. The reason for the lack of guns will just be the start, it leads to all kinds of story driven plots and even the basic atmosphere/style (ie very low tech). Plus your not just rehashing the main story line we're all familiar with, you'd be creating something new and interesting.

 

Now if you still don't want to go that way, that's your choice. There's no creativity in simply taking guns out of the game without any plausible reason for the change. There's no skill in removing them from the vendor lists, various leveled loot lists, npc's etc, it's just a lot of grunt work. But you did ask a question and you got your answers....pretty resounding no's.

[Ladez]

Something akin to teh book of eli flick? There's still rusty firearms about, but apparently people have forgotten how to make gunpowder (or reloaders) so every bullet has to count and most combat is hand to hand.

I guess, yeah. One of my biggest problems with Fallout is that there is a ridiculous amount of firepower available to the player. I don't really feel challenged when when I can walk into any store and expect to find hundreds of rounds of ammunition and around a dozen different firearms. Especially not when caps are so easy to come by. One situation I often scratch my head at in confusion, is when NPC's begin firing their guns at something. They fire a constant, never-ending stream of bullets, and continue doing so until after their target has dropped to the ground, at which point they may have used about 20-30 rounds to take down that single target. But of course NPC's have 'magical unlimited ammunition', so what does it matter? Ruined suspension of disbelief, right there.

 

It's part of the reason I have a strong dislike for companions in these games, since it's more noticable when it's the guy/gal next to you who starts emptying magazines in a killing frenzy.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Ladez

[africanwarhead]

Now if you still don't want to go that way, that's your choice. There's no creativity in simply taking guns out of the game without any plausible reason for the change. There's no skill in removing them from the vendor lists, various leveled loot lists, npc's etc, it's just a lot of grunt work. But you did ask a question and you got your answers....pretty resounding no's.

 

Well its not really about creativity, just a change of dynamic. Perhaps no firearms is a bit TOO much, but like Ladez says, there's sometimes just too much firepower.

 

But that's also the whole reason for this suggestion, not because of why, but because I would find it interesting to check out how the gameplay would change. Personally I couldn't give a damn about why they are not there, since the game is already unbelievable in several ways, one of which Ladez already pointed out. Plus, check out all the skimpy armour mods available. Erm, I wouldn't take my bikini to a gunfight, yet they are quite successful mods... :P So I find it quite odd that we're making such a fuss about the reason why the firearms went. What about the actual gameplay?

 

Which brings us to the issue of this story of melee being not good enough...

 

If you want my honest opinion, then hell no. I kind of agree with Quetzlsacatanango that the melee combat in the game is just too bad for the game to be all melee.

 

Maybe I've not played other games where there are more melee moves, but seriously, is the firearms option varied enough then? Point-and-shoot? Crouch and shoot? You can't even go prone! Not much variation there. Sure, tonnes of weapons, but at the end all you do is point-and-shoot. Different shape, different sound... its cosmetic. I'm actually bored of it. The only variation is the stopping power of the ammo, and optional mods like a scope. But with melee you can to at least 3 moves I know of, plus you can equip all kinds of knives and swords... and a crossbow. I find that more varied than having a whole arsenal that just goes 'bang'. So I guess this is more of a matter of taste, or not?

 

I'm actually getting so good at shooting that I never get to have a fistfight. Now with this mod you've got no choice. That's more of what I'm talking about. The challenge, the gameplay... not the damn history or reason. That's just an extra. I think I might have put too much emphasis on the reason rather than the actual effect of the mod.

Edited October 3, 2012 by africanwarhead

[Ladez]

Maybe I've not played other games where there are more melee moves, but seriously, is the firearms option varied enough then? Point-and-shoot? Crouch and shoot? You can't even go prone! Not much variation there. Sure, tonnes of weapons, but at the end all you do is point-and-shoot. Different shape, different sound... its cosmetic. I'm actually bored of it. The only variation is the stopping power of the ammo, and optional mods like a scope. But with melee you can to at least 3 moves I know of, plus you can equip all kinds of knives and swords... and a crossbow. I find that more varied than having a whole arsenal that just goes 'bang'. So I guess this is more of a matter of taste, or not?

 

I'm actually getting so good at shooting that I never get to have a fistfight. Now with this mod you've got no choice. That's more of what I'm talking about. The challenge, the gameplay... not the damn history or reason. That's just an extra. I think I might have put too much emphasis on the reason rather than the actual effect of the mod.

Did you even read my whole post or did you just stop at that first line?

 

You totally misunderstood my point. No I do not think the firearms are more varied than the melee options, quite the opposite (although I admit I didn't express that earlier), I do however feel that melee combat is somewhat clunky and not satisfactory when compared to firearms. I also feel that the availability of firearms and ammunition in the game makes melee combat feel redundant. This doesn't mean that I don't like playing melee. I do, and sometimes I do pick up a blade or something along the way. I'd like to be forced to use melee weapons more often, but I don't want the firearms to be completely discarded. The two types of weapons are horribly unbalanced in this game, so it's no wonder people choose to just go with the guns. But instead of just taking out all firearms, why not try and make it more balanced instead?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ladez

[africanwarhead]

Maybe I've not played other games where there are more melee moves, but seriously, is the firearms option varied enough then? Point-and-shoot? Crouch and shoot? You can't even go prone! Not much variation there. Sure, tonnes of weapons, but at the end all you do is point-and-shoot. Different shape, different sound... its cosmetic. I'm actually bored of it. The only variation is the stopping power of the ammo, and optional mods like a scope. But with melee you can to at least 3 moves I know of, plus you can equip all kinds of knives and swords... and a crossbow. I find that more varied than having a whole arsenal that just goes 'bang'. So I guess this is more of a matter of taste, or not?

 

I'm actually getting so good at shooting that I never get to have a fistfight. Now with this mod you've got no choice. That's more of what I'm talking about. The challenge, the gameplay... not the damn history or reason. That's just an extra. I think I might have put too much emphasis on the reason rather than the actual effect of the mod.

Did you even read my whole post or did you just stop at that first line?

 

You totally misunderstood my point. No I do not think the firearms are more varied than the melee options, quite the opposite (although I admit I didn't express that earlier), I do however feel that melee combat is somewhat clunky and not satisfactory when compared to firearms. I also feel that the availability of firearms and ammunition in the game makes melee combat feel redundant. This doesn't mean that I don't like playing melee. I do, and sometimes I do pick up a blade or something along the way. I'd like to be forced to use melee weapons more often, but I don't want the firearms to be completely discarded. The two types of weapons are horribly unbalanced in this game, so it's no wonder people choose to just go with the guns. But instead of just taking out all firearms, why not try and make it more balanced instead?

 

no don't worry, I read it etc, maybe I should've acknowledged that :) but I took your comment as an example, maybe not fair hehe. I think that the melee part is perhaps a matter of taste, its ok for me. What you say about melee being reduntant was also my point, why bother?

 

Ok so the melee thing could be improved, sure. I might not be very experienced in those types of games (like what... Silent Assassin?). I cannot imagine that would be too hard to make for an experienced modder.

 

I could give the whole thing a shot but I've only got time to get involved in small time mods like weapon addons and body replacers etc... plus I don't entirely know where all the weapons are stashed... like the other guys said, it would probably be grunt work.

[devinpatterson]

Ok so the melee thing could be improved, sure. I might not be very experienced in those types of games (like what... Silent Assassin?). I cannot imagine that would be too hard to make for an experienced modder.

 

Seriously doubt that brother. You might be able to make new animations (a lot of work, not to mention skill), but your not going to be able to alter the game engine and how it handles melee in it's most fundamental aspects.

 

I could give the whole thing a shot but I've only got time to get involved in small time mods like weapon addons and body replacers etc... plus I don't entirely know where all the weapons are stashed...

 

If you'r going to outsource it, I suspect your going to have to make it much more compelling......and weapons are all listed under (shockingly enough) weapons. ie items->weapons.