[LE] Visibility and Lighting

[nikolaf]

Hello!

 

I've a question regarding AI vision; how do imagespace modifiers and lighting templates affect stealth and general AI visibility?

 

Currently, I have an interior cell that uses my custom lighting template and imagespace modifier. However, the npcs in said cell seem to be almost blind. I need to be next to them for them to notice me.

 

I fiddled with brightness, contrast, and other options, but haven't noticed any change in AI. What affects if you are seen or not?

[maxarturo]

Imagespace modifiers and lighting templates have no affect in npcs AI, imagespace and lighting are apply only to the Player's Camera, if the npcs could actually see they would only see Navmesh and actors position.

 

* The only way imagespace modifiers can have some affect in an other actor is, if you Scripted to react to it, example : if and when the imagespace is applyed to the Player the npc should do something.

 

* The fact that you npc is not reacting is related to.

1) Navmesh

2) The type of npc used

3) The npc's AI - aggression level - attack data

4) The npc's faction

Edited September 20, 2019 by maxarturo

[NexusComa]

Is your cell nav-meshed ..

[nikolaf]

I don't know what could be the problem...

 

I use a stealth balancing mod, but it has worked fine with everything else. Navmesh is almost perfectly made (I have an obsession with that kind of thing), the enemies are in a hostile faction, very aggressive. They attack me only when I'm about 3-4 feet away from them. Which is interesting, as I have 'interiors' in there in which they see me normally, from the other side of the room, even with stealth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by npc type, but I use the standard Dremora. I haven't scripted anything into the imagespace.

 

If neither of those lightings affect visibility, then what does?

Edited September 21, 2019 by nikolaf

[maxarturo]

1) We can claim that NavMesh is perfect only after running " Check NavMesh ", in NavMesh tool bar find the " Find Triangle " button and then click the " Check for Errors ".

 

2) Always test your mod alone, with no other mods loaded, load other mods only when you have finish your mod and you will start searching for incompatibilities with other mods.

Alway test your mod in a " SAVE " THAT HAS NEVER SEEN YOUR MOD - ESP.

Or preferable " COC " to your cell to test if your mod doesn't have heavy scripts running like quests that might require installation to register correctly the scripts.

3) " I'm not sure what you mean by npc type "

Example : if you put a rabbit it will never attack you but run away from you, or if you put a goat it won't move at all or move very slow.

4) " If neither of those lightings affect visibility, then what does? "

Is highly possible ( if your NavMesh is perfect ) that an other of you mods is causing this, most likely a mod that changes npcs behavior or AI.

[nikolaf]

Thanks again, maxarturo!

 

It is as good as it can get, I already did the 'check for errors'.

 

I've tested without any mods, just mine. And with just the stealth mod. It isn't the cause.

 

No rabbits in this hole (it's a literal hellhole filled with lava :D), only Daedra. No npc or AI behaviour edits. There is a quest involving the cell, but it does nothing on its own, just tell the player to search around and whatnot. Interestingly, I've made a couple of other areas, interiors and exteriors, that do not express this behaviour. Even vanilla Skyrim works great, only this one (actually two very similar) cell bugs the AI.

 

Interesting to note: although the AI doesn't spot me when I'm going around, the entrance to the area is a portal with a bright light. And when I enter the area, the nearby enemies immediately see me! As if the light affects their vision... going further down into the dark, blindness for everyone...

 

I might post a picture of it, if that helps.

Edited September 21, 2019 by nikolaf

[maxarturo]

Bug hunting and issue solving is a big part of modding with CK, especially when your modding & scripting abilities grows and your demands from the program grows also.

First try cleaning your mod - esp with Tes5Edit to eliminate any possibilities of identical records causing this.

This could be a bug - glitch that i've noticed related to the number of actors placed in the cell, especially if the cell is one of the two first cell you encounter in your mod, ( haven't found in the past too much about this issue online ).

If after cleaning and finish bug hunting the issue persist, and you want - need those actors to attack the Player you can force them to attack when the Player Enters a specific Trigger Box.

[nikolaf]

1) The mod's been cleaned, twice.

 

2) I'm pretty certain it's not that. I've made several others, and there aren't that many npcs in there. Look at any nordic dungeon and there you have it.

 

3) It would take a long time to make trigger boxes for every single enemy, and they respawn, so it would be a pain. No scripts, nothing 'advanced' has been done. Basically put together an island of rocks and added several enemies on it, fully navmeshed.

 

*2) There are 28 instances of leveled actors in the cell. Some have patrol markers, most do not.

 

*3) They DO attack the player, just when he's very close. And I mean VERY close. Also, I tested out my theory: does light actually affect the enemies? My conclusion is that it does, somewhat:

 

- In the cell, I've positioned my character far from any light sources, it takes them about 5 seconds to see me when I'm close in front. Dagon help them if I'm behind them. Then I went to the entrance light source, and spawned one of them close by. Let's just say it took that Dremora 50% less time to find me, after which he killed me. I've also tested with a torch - they seem to find me at the same speed as the bright light. Then I tried with candlelight - same. I've tested the same npcs in other areas - they see me instantly. So how do i proceed now? I'll try fiddling with lighting some more, and see if I can fix this...

 

I have this exact same issue! -- except only in my two custom cells!

Edited September 22, 2019 by nikolaf

[maxarturo]

First of all let's clarify something, actors - npcs don't have vision, they can't see !, everything is just programazitation, example: followers will take out and hold their torches, if is in the time schedule ( from 10 to 8 ) and if they are not in a cell that belongs to the player, like inside your house.

Maybe Dremora AI has been programmed - scripted to respond to certain light range & intensity of the light emittance source castingt on/at the palyer at a certain distance of the Dremora using one papyrus script that is use a lot in vanilla stuff ( ActorREF01.getDistance(ActorERF02) < ## ), i've never looked at Dremora AI to know how it works ( basically i've never use them, or look at them ).

28 instances of leveled actors in the same cell rendering plus the game engine handling their AI, is a fairly high amount of stuff to do !, each one of those 28 instances is a separate program running - doing its stuff.

If you haven't optimize the cell, then the game engine is rendering everything that you see on your screen and the things that YOU DON'T SEE and are behind all the walls - meshes in front of your FIELD OF VIEW from your position up to the last mesh in that axis SIMULTANEOUSLY !.

This can also contribute in wrong npcs behavior because your CPU + GPU + RAM are busy and full as hell and the engine cuts off things in order to be able to keep running.

Optimization will solve a lot of weird issues that you might encounter, and is critical that you have optimize your cell first before you start doing any kind of testing, especially with Actors and Lighting.

" It would take a long time to make trigger boxes for every single enemy "

- You can Link more than one Actor to a trigger box.

- If you want to keep modding, then you need to get comfortable with trigger boxes, because they are use a lot in game, and is the easiest and lighter way to do a lot of stuffs ( basically is one of the main tools of modding with CK ).

Edited September 23, 2019 by maxarturo

[nikolaf]

Thanks for trying to help!

 

I don't know much about their AI, but it's not just about the Dremora. I have scamps, daedroths and atronachs in there too. Even spawned npcs like Ralof, Tullius and Neloth are blind as hell in the cell. Check the video that reddit user posted, the first one - that's exactly what is happening here.

 

I know they don't see, but the Realistic AI Detection mod said it takes light sources into account when calculating visibility. So I'll check that.

 

28 instances is not much, not for my computer. I can spawn over 200 npcs and they would react instantly. CPU is not a problem. Besides, the cell is not THAT big - about 15000/-15000 on the x and y axis (mostly lava beyond that).

 

Trigger boxes aren't a problem, I've setup several in the area, it's just that it would be stupid to make them for npcs, because you might be a thief and want to evade them, but with the trigger boxes you'd get attacked...

 

Edit: Figured it out in the end. It seems that the ambient values in the lighting template were the culprit. They were all 0 for me, and after setting them to 100, npcs see normally! Thank you maxarturo for all the help!

Edited September 23, 2019 by nikolaf