Modern futurized weapons-

[Kaerius]

Retro style, it's missing drum-mag smgs(I quite like the old russian "burp guns", PPSh-41, PPD, etc, understandable if they're not in it, being russian, but what about Thompsons?), heck it's missing non-minigun machineguns, where'd the good old M60 go? (Though I could go for a H&K 21E, base design 1961, the E version 1980).

 

Or how about this for retro-future tech: gyrojet pistols&rifles! Discontinued 60s tech... plenty of time to fix the problems by the fallout time eh?

[Wreckless1]

1. So mod the name of that ammo tzo say 7.62x39mm. And yes, a G3 version chambered in that calibre existed too. I can personally vouch that the mod works flawlessly and it's a whole 5 minutes to mod it.

 

Every G3 produced by HK and under HK license (FMP, etc) was chambered in 7.62x51 NATO, with the exception of the now-very-collectible .22 LR conversion kits that could be fitted for training. HK did make prototypes in 7.62x39 using the same roller-locked action and these are loosely referred to as the HK32, but it differed significantly from a G3 configuration and was never officially offered as a production weapon.

A couple of American Class II SOT's converted a handful of HK91's from 7.62x51 NATO to fire 7.62x39, but what a third party does has nothing to do with what was offered by HK, and they are so fantastically rare that I strongly doubt that you'd encounter one in a 'Fallout' sort of setting.

 

I'm well aware of what's involved with changing the name of the ammo, but renaming 5.56 to 7.62x39 is only slightly less incorrect than the original problem.

My point entirely is that Bethesda should have merely avoided modeling existing weapons like the G3 or AK entirely if they had no interest whatsoever in using their specifications.

 

2. That future split up from ours in the 60's, so anything that existed up to the 60's, will still bloody continue to exist. Alternate futures don't change the past, you know. There'll still be NRA guys who love their AK-47. Heck, there still are guys who own muzzle-loading black-powder muskets, some hundreds of years after they went out of fashion. All those guns won't just disappear, and after a nuclear war, some sod is going to find them in some ruins and use them for lack of something better.

 

3. Here's the important part, that "future" stayed retro. They still have Fatman type nukes like that dropped on Nagasaki, dropped from airplanes. (See the one in Megaton, or the ones in the bomb depot.) They still have car radios with tubes (see the into movie). They have computers where you need a whole rack and a 60's-looking terminal just to keep a diary, and complete with blinking front panel leds. (Which don't even make sense unless it's slow and simple enough to be debugged via those front panel LEDs, and/or to have the bootstrap loaded via toggles and those LEDs.) Etc. It's a 60's themed future, not the Star Wars or Star Trek kind of future.

 

EDIT: Even the G11, since someone else correctly mentioned it, is a project started in _1968_. It's not a SF 21'st century gun, it's just a project from the 60's which obviously got continued when the two realities split.

 

All very similar points to ones I've made in other threads, and exactly what I too would liked to have seen more of in Fallout 3. Though your ignorant comment about NRA members does merit a little bit of correction - If we were really going to try to mimic the immense variety seen in the collections of gun hobbyists (NRA member or not) There would be a HUGE list of possible firearms found even if we stuck to the most common models seen here in North America.

Bethesda's solution, obviously, was to just make one or two of each 'genre' of gun and just call it that... which was weak in the extreme if one was hoping for a variety.

 

 

....But yes. the Effin F2k is a good idea. Even though i see it used in plenty of games around. I like it's shape.

 

Moraelin, You had plenty of really good ideas in your post. I'd like too see alot of those in there, but my problem lies with the high penetration weapons like MP7 A1. I don't think FO3 lets you shoot through walls or people?

 

Again, I'd like to see some fictional weapons that are *like* the F2000 and such - half of the beauty of the Fallout world is that we can indulge in fictional weaponry to a great extent!

If one was determined to let details make them miserable, the first two bones to pick would be the idea of a man-portable Minigun that weighed a mere 18 lbs, (the last M134 Minigun I handled weighed about 70 lbs and that's without any mounting hardware or handles, feeding linkage, power source, OR ammo) and of course the bizarre and stupid looking break-action missile launcher that makes no sense whatsoever, and doesn't even remotely resemble any shoulder-fired missile system I've ever seen in practice or in books.

 

I can ignore these sorts of things and still enjoy the game.. because *gasp* its a game! What DOES bother me though, is the fact I already mentioned about Bethesda's use of the G3, AK, and Broomhandle Mauser in visage, and then made the weapons in-game almost totally alien to the actual weapons themselves.

If they wanted fictional guns, they should have modeled ficitonal guns - its that simple. Using real firearms as the models was just lazy.

 

 

As for the MP7, HK's 4.6x30mm ammo doesn't offer any sort of fancy penetration advantage unless we're comparing it to typical handgun ammuntion. The entire goal of FN's 5.7x28 ammo and HK's 4.6x30 ammo is to offer a handgun-sized cartridge with a very low recoil impulse that isn't rendered totally useless against light to moderate ballistic infantry armor.

 

> 99% of all centerfire rifle cartridges offer significantly superior performance in penetration when compared to the 5.7 or the 4.6, and yes this includes the 5.56, particularly when speaking of the SS109 or M855 ammunition which incorporates a steel penetrator tip on top of the lead bullet core. When speaking of say, WW2 Era .30-06 Black tip Tungsten-core AP the difference is orders of magnitude.

 

That all being said, I'd really like to see a mod that allowed rifles and perhaps the .44 Mag to carry some penetration through objects. Having wooden signs stop 5.56 is definitely unrealistic.

[Moraelin]

Every G3 produced by HK and under HK license (FMP, etc) was chambered in 7.62x51 NATO, with the exception of the now-very-collectible .22 LR conversion kits that could be fitted for training. HK did make prototypes in 7.62x39 using the same roller-locked action and these are loosely referred to as the HK32, but it differed significantly from a G3 configuration and was never officially offered as a production weapon.

A couple of American Class II SOT's converted a handful of HK91's from 7.62x51 NATO to fire 7.62x39, but what a third party does has nothing to do with what was offered by HK, and they are so fantastically rare that I strongly doubt that you'd encounter one in a 'Fallout' sort of setting.

 

*shrug* The G11 wasn't exactly a production weapon, either, and you find more than one in Fallout 2.

 

I'm well aware of what's involved with changing the name of the ammo, but renaming 5.56 to 7.62x39 is only slightly less incorrect than the original problem.

My point entirely is that Bethesda should have merely avoided modeling existing weapons like the G3 or AK entirely if they had no interest whatsoever in using their specifications.

 

Well, there's that. Unfortunately now they're there.

 

All very similar points to ones I've made in other threads, and exactly what I too would liked to have seen more of in Fallout 3. Though your ignorant comment about NRA members does merit a little bit of correction - If we were really going to try to mimic the immense variety seen in the collections of gun hobbyists (NRA member or not) There would be a HUGE list of possible firearms found even if we stuck to the most common models seen here in North America.

 

1. So, is that a bad thing? I think we'd all like to see more weapons in the game.

 

2. It's not an all or nothing situation. Just because they're not _all_ in there, it doesn't mean we should drop _all_ weapons from the era this game is themed around. Since that's where that talk started. We _can_ have AK-47s, Tommy Guns, and Uzis and whatnot, even if we miss about a thousand other weapons which some collectors do have.

 

3. It seems to me like what you're saying isn't a "correction" at all, it's actually confirming it. Yes, you'd find some AK-47s around even in 100 years. And a few thousand other models of weapons, but I never said they liked _only_ AK-47's, or whatever of your own assumptions you're answering to. Or was the whole point to hear yourself calling someone "ignorant"?

 

 

Bethesda's solution, obviously, was to just make one or two of each 'genre' of gun and just call it that... which was weak in the extreme if one was hoping for a variety.

 

So, because Bethesda's selection in that aspect is weak, you're complaining that all the weapons I've proposed are from era the game is themed around? I'm not sure I follow the logic there. Surely adding more weapons to that selection would be a good thing, no?

 

 

As for the MP7, HK's 4.6x30mm ammo doesn't offer any sort of fancy penetration advantage unless we're comparing it to typical handgun ammuntion. The entire goal of FN's 5.7x28 ammo and HK's 4.6x30 ammo is to offer a handgun-sized cartridge with a very low recoil impulse that isn't rendered totally useless against light to moderate ballistic infantry armor.

 

It _is_ handgun sized, so the comparison to handgun or SMG ammo is actually very relevant. (Otherwise I'd compare it to a 14.5mm Soviet vehicle-mounted MG or something ;) ) And according to H&K it does go through 1.6mm titanium _and_ 20 layers of kevlar at 200m. By comparison 9mm Parabellum is stopped by 16 kevlar layers.

 

Not that it would matter in the game, though, since without a dmg threshold for armours there's not much point in simulating ammo that can defeat it.

[Wreckless1]

I guess I've wandered a bit from my main points and that's caused some understandable confusion - my bad.

 

If I'd been the guy in charge of figuring out the weapon selection in FO3, I wouldn't have bothered to include very many weapons that ALREADY exist. I would have delightfully included a few things such as the M1911, M14/M1A, and probably the Desert Eagle just because it already had a basis in FO1 and FO2 canon and was well-loved even though it doesn't fit the future-retro 50's theme as well.

 

Considering the timeline splits at 1950 or so I'd delight in the ability to enhance the fluff of the game by using a large majority of fictional weapons that could come into the picture between then and 2077 - and yes, I'm very glad that you also see the fun in that :)

I'm glad Beth did much of the same (though outside of the weapon selection), showing nukes as obvious Fat Man clones, car styling is very 50's finned, etc.

But with how many FPS's focus on existing weapons over and over again it'd be more fun (in my opinion, at least) to see the Fallout 5mm AK-112's and everything else like that. Its not that the weapons you listed were *wrong* per se, its just that I feel an alternate timeline's weapon selection could be best enjoyed by getting a little more imaginative and steering away from existing designs.

 

And no, I didn't make that comment to hear (or read) myself calling someone ignorant. To be brutally honest, its more of a peeve in that the way you phrased it exhibited the classic assumption that NRA members are narrowminded, paranoid, hard core religious fanatics - which is no different than making any other obviously incorrect sweeping statement like saying all blue-eyed people have IQ's less than 100 or saying that people who drive minivans are terrible drivers. I won't deny that there's some real idiots out there. But I can also find idiots in congress, idiots in my city council, idiots (and very smart people, for that matter) in both the Dems and the GOP, and yes there's even idiots in my unit.

 

The second half is that, frankly, calling any Kalashnikov that you're likely to see outside of a Museum an AK-47 is basically 100% incorrect and (again) you can thank the legions of journalists that can't be bothered to understand the fact that the far and away vast majority of AK's ever made are AKM's - basically the AK-47 V2.0 that altered the receiver geometry to allow it to be made from stamped sheet metal instead of an elaborately milled block of steel (note, there's plenty of examples of Kalashnikov's of an AKM heritage that are also milled - the design changes allowed it to be produced either way) and also made changes to the gas tube, pistol grip design, and magazines. It might seem like nitpicking, but these are significant changes and it *IS* a different design and was adopted in the USSR as the AKM.

For any student of firearms it is an important distinction to make. Its also as easy as just calling it an 'AK' or 'Kalashnikov'

Furthermore, I'm aware of a grand total of two actual authentic amnesty registered pre-1960 AK-47's in the ATFE's NFA registry - and the last one that was offered for sale sold for close to $40,000 USD - plus of course the transfer tax, two sets of fingerprints to the FBI and ATF, Chief Law Enforcement Officer signature, etc and everything else that comes with a civilian buying a transferable machine gun in the states that still allow it.

I know the Smithsonian and the ATF's Firearms Technology Branch each have a very extensive collection of early Kalashnikovs - I imagine the MOD's Pattern Room does as well... but damn few are in civilian hands in the west.

The ~$400 semiautomatic-only AK clones that are widely available at most gun stores around the US bear even less design resemblance to the original AK-47's than the AKM does - and it would be very realistic to make a large portion of weapons found in Fallout semiauto-only to reflect that immense rarity of select-fire weapons in civilian hands. Honestly, few people even realize that there is such a thing as a legal machine gun.

Though I imagine that would quite logically be changed in the event of a Chinese land invasion into the US, as happened in Fallout. :)

 

But, to review-

If it has a Luger-like grip angle going into a milled receiver, a slab-sided mag with no ribbing. and was produced at Izhmash or Tula Arsenal between 1947 and the mid-50's or so then yes, its a simon-pure AK-47.

The legions of AK's and AK variants that have been produced by no less than 20 countries to the tune of 90+ million firearms total are almost totally comprised of the later model AKM or its variants, and outright derivations such as the Saiga.

 

/endrant. lol.

If I come off as pretentious or condescending, I apologize as that's truly not my intention.

[Seviche]

If I come off as pretentious or condescending, I apologize as that's truly not my intention.

It's quite a good read. Accuracy is a must, especially today, and unless the intent is only one of fantasy, one should align themselves along the lines of fact and reason. How's that for pretentious? :thumbsup:

 

Also, something to consider, it that much of the current firearm technology hasn't changed in any great manner in perhaps the last hundred years. So for us to see comparable and similar weapons in the FO3 universe isn't that big of a stretch of, or leap of, logic. Personally, I think naming the Chinese battle rifle (that seems to be in odd abundance) the "Chinese Assault Rifle" is perfect considering the +100 years of altered time line that FO3 contains. It's an ambiguous title for an ambiguous "future" weapon based on our modern ones.

 

Still... MOAR BULLPUPS. o_O

[Moraelin]

To be brutally honest, its more of a peeve in that the way you phrased it exhibited the classic assumption that NRA members are narrowminded, paranoid, hard core religious fanatics

 

Ahh. Well, sorry if it could be mis-read as that, but you'll notice that I didn't actually write anything even remotely like that. My point was merely that they're not going to throw away their weapons designed in the 50's-60's just because a newer weapon existed. Any kind of collector (NRA or not) just doesn't work that way. Heck, the Kollibri is now worth thousands of dollars, although the weapon isn't just obsolete, it was actually useless crap when launched.

 

- which is no different than making any other obviously incorrect sweeping statement like saying all blue-eyed people have IQ's less than 100 or saying that people who drive minivans are terrible drivers. I won't deny that there's some real idiots out there. But I can also find idiots in congress, idiots in my city council, idiots (and very smart people, for that matter) in both the Dems and the GOP, and yes there's even idiots in my unit.

 

Again, I'd understand your annoyance had I actually made that kind of a generalization. My point was merely that they do have some guns, and (some of them) aren't going to throw them away just because a newer weapon got launched.

 

The second half is that, frankly, calling any Kalashnikov that you're likely to see outside of a Museum an AK-47 is basically 100% incorrect and (again) you can thank the legions of journalists that can't be bothered to understand the fact that the far and away vast majority of AK's ever made are AKM's - basically the AK-47 V2.0 that altered the receiver geometry to allow it to be made from stamped sheet metal instead of an elaborately milled block of steel (note, there's plenty of examples of Kalashnikov's of an AKM heritage that are also milled - the design changes allowed it to be produced either way) and also made changes to the gas tube, pistol grip design, and magazines. It might seem like nitpicking, but these are significant changes and it *IS* a different design and was adopted in the USSR as the AKM.

For any student of firearms it is an important distinction to make. Its also as easy as just calling it an 'AK' or 'Kalashnikov'

 

Duly noted. Still,

 

1. I actually know about the AKM, but it never occured to me that it would actually go on anyone's nerves that massively. I just meant really any of the variants chambered in 7.62x39mm. Just calling it "AK" or "Kalashnikov" could mean, say, the newer AK-74, or, if taken to extremes, the RPK.

 

2. For that matter, and in keeping with the chinese-invasion theme, I wouldn't mind a Chinese Type 56 either, which AFAIK was a copy of the AK-47. (It was actually licensed before the AKM went into production.) Some 10-15 millions of them have been produced in China, and turned up all over the globe, so maybe the chances are better with that one.

 

3. Semi-automatic versions can sometimes be modded back to fully automatic. You'd break the law if you did that today in the USA, but in the Fallout wastelands nobody would care :P

[Kaerius]

3. Semi-automatic versions can sometimes be modded back to fully automatic. You'd break the law if you did that today in the USA, but in the Fallout wastelands nobody would care :P

 

While it's "possible", it's extremely difficult, to the point where I've seen sworn affidavits from police chiefs never having seen one in 10+ years on the force and tens of thousands of weapons confiscated.

 

That it's easy or commonplace is a myth.

 

In most cases, we're talking about replacing about half the moving parts.

 

It's actually easier modding a semi-automatic pistol to be fully automatic, than a semi-automatic rifle to be fully automatic(I've heard of this being done accidentally with pistols, very very rare though).

 

 

Watch the last minute or so.

[Deleted187290User]

http://store.warfare.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/c36e675c3e7ad466b84fcd9707c3ba14.jpg

 

nuff said

[Kaerius]

Helicopter-mounted machinegun?

[Deleted187290User]

Helicopter-mounted machinegun?

KVPT 14.5mm repeating cannon. Normaly(for all sane use) it is fired from a stationary turret position. BUT it can be fired from the hip in VERY small bursts with lots of kick.

 

 

Not hoping for realism when it comes to this, this is just badass.