The Evolving Society Mod

[juderodney]

Well thought out, but isn't the whole long-lost-distant-relatvie plot a bit cliche?

[bigleow]

you betcha! that was the quickest reason I could come up with that would compel our hero to go to this overgrown island. By all means, spice it up/change it/slaughter it, resurrect it and kick it again! whatever needs to be done. I sat down after reading the original post and knocked that out in about 15 mins or so. honestly didn't put a whole lot of hard thought into it. Just gleaned my brain for quick ideas that could help in the storyline/playability of the mod.

[wasder]

Can't you just put the story as a generic save-from-tyranny plot like loads of other stuff? (Star Wars, Inheritance Trilogy etc..) My brain isn't working well right now.

[reaper9111]

wow, i did not read all the post but enougth to say that this will be a massive work to accomplish ! i love all the idea that as been said already... i wish my best to those who works on that project !

[QQuix]

Hi.

First, as always, thank you all for the contributions.

 

Second, a quick, weekly progress report: I have been working hard on the TES engine. Progress at this stage is very slow. I have restarted from scratch a couple of times in order to get a better 'engine architecture', if I can call it that. But it is going well.

 

Third, I need some help with the subtleties of some English words.

Most of the TES economy will be based on processes.

Processes take something as input and generate some kind of product.

Processes take place in a specific building, place or area and are handled by a specific worker.

I need your help to decide which would be the best word to describe some of the inputs, processes, buildings, professions and products. Ideally, a single word for each.

 

Example: a quarry produces rock(?). A stone shop (?) transforms rocks (?) into stones (?) (cut/polished/minced/whatever rocks).

Questions: what are the words to describe raw stones out of a quarry and somehow finished stones to be used in buildings? What is the name of the place and the process that transforms one into the other? Could I have a third process to further refine the stones and produce, maybe, marble to be used in upper class buildings? What would be the words to name the place, process and product?

 

The processes I am working with are (still the very basic ones):

(I have been thru Dictionary.com and Wikipedia, but I could not get anything better than this)

 

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT

Seeds >> Farm - Farmer - Farming >> Food

Trees >> Forest - Lumberjack - Lumberjacking >> Logs

Logs >> Sawmill - Sawmiller - Woodcutting >> Boards

[none] >> Quarry - Stone miner - Stone mining >> Rock

Rock >> ?? - Stonecutter - Stonecutting >> Stone

Stone >> ?? - ?? - ?? >> Marble

[none] >> Mine - Miner - Mining >> Ore

Ore >> Foundry - ?? - ?? >> Ingots

Ingots >> Smith - Blacksmith - Blacksmithing >> Metal parts

 

 

For the conceptual phase, I am using the name of the product to name the worker. E.g. a rocker is the quarry worker that produces rocks. A Stoner is the guy that transforms rocks into stones. lol . But it would be better if I started using the final, more proper names. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

Suggestions on further use of wood, stones and metal are welcome. Ships, weapons, armors and tools have already been suggested.

[bshaeffer]

An alternative to Lumberjacking could be Lumbering.

An alternative to Sawmiller could be Sawyer.

Ore >> Foundry - ?? could go Smelter - Smelting >> Ingots.

 

I could see Rock / Stone going a different way, possibly.

Quarries often produced finished stone on-site by Masons.

Maybe rough cut 'Stone' is good for walls, bridges and forts.

Maybe finer cut 'Bricks' are needed for homes and shops?

 

Just ideas. Take em or leave em. =)

[QQuix]

Thanks. Those are some of the missing words.

 

I suppose you are right. Stones out of the quarry would be used to build Level 2 buildings and when the player can afford a masonry, it will produce bricks, which, in turn, will allow for level 3 buildings.

 

Triggered by a suggestion from another thread, we could have some optional city enhancements to boost global community indicators(like happiness or health), so the player may decide which one to build, depending on which indicator is falling behind.

 

In case this turns out feasible, let's start a new line of suggestions for city enhancements and their effects

I can think of a few to start with:

 

Public baths to enhance Health

Parks / trees-on-sidewalks to enhance Happiness

Public lights to enhance Security (or reduce Crime, although I am not sure I want to go SimCity here)

 

Suggestions for global community indicators are welcome. As well as city enhancement(s) that may affect them.

[ihateregisteringeverywhere]

Well, let me reason a little bit first. IMO a farmer doesn't realy bear in mind anything else than his survival when creating food. Therefore I'd suggest two new buildings:

 

Farmers market.

Comming from this logic a farmer would most probably only create enough food to cover his needs a little extra to do some small trading with the nearest neighbours for basic supplies. A farmer's market is basicaly a place where such a farmer could sell any and all surplus he might have created, so I suggest this builsing to be what would allow a centralised counter for all of the food on the island. Otherwise it should IMO be bound to a small area like the farm itself or just the closest neighbours = the village the farmer lives in.

 

Granary.

Same logic applies if you don't produce surplus food because you can't be sure if you're able to sell it then you don't need to build a stockpile for this food on your farm. I suggest a granary would be what would allow your comunity to stockpile large amounts of food and also to increase food production because now the farmers can create a surplus of food because they know that there's a place to stockpile it.

 

Moving on. The Inn could/should have several levels - higher levels would allow/atract more/higher level business, which could/would in turn atract richer citizens. Rich citizens are of course happier to exchange money for protection and also atract crime, so I guess that that's also what city guard/legion should be based on. Combinations of prerequisities could allow for buildings like barracks, an armory, a fort, archery range etc etc.

 

I also think that there should be other buildings that don't increase stats, but limit the max stats if those buildings aren't build. Severs are a very good example. (No matter how many bathouses you build the city is still dirty without severs and therefore the overall health level can't realy go up)

 

A basic city guard should have a similar effect - you just won't be happy no matter how many fountains you see per day if you're raided by pirates every single day.

 

Stop me if I'm going too deep.

[Deleted269910User]

Here are my changes/additions to the list(Few have stayed pretty much the same.);

 

EDITS;

 

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT

Seeds >> Farm - Farmer - Farming >> Food(Wheat/Meat)

Trees >> Forest - Lumberjack - Woodcutting >> Logs

Logs >> Sawmill - Sawmill Operator - ?? >> Planks

[none] >> Quarry - Miner - Mining >> Stone

Stone/Marble >> Masonry - Mason - ?? >> Building materials

[none] >> Quarry/Mine - Miner - Mining >> Marble

[none] >> Mine - Miner - Mining >> Ore/Gem

Ore >> Foundry - Smelter - Smelting >> Ingots/Bars

Ingots >> Smith - Blacksmith - Blacksmithing >> Metal parts

 

NEW;

 

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT

Logs/Metal parts >> [No specific location, workshop possibly.] - Fletcher - Fletching >> Archery supplies (Suggested already?)

Logs/Ores/Stones/Gems/Marble/Metal Parts >> Workshop - Crafter/Crafts(wo)man(Possibly specialized in some area?) - Crafting >> Jewelry/Furniture/Basic items etc.

Barrels/Ingredients(Mostly from farming, vary for different drinks.) >> Brewery - Brewmaster/Brewer - Brewing >> Alcohol

Food/Alcohol >> Tavern - Barkeeper/Barmaid - Service >> Money

Money >> Tavern/House - Architect - Building/Construction Designing >> Money

 

ihr's(I hope you don't mind me using ihr for short of your nick. :whistling: ) ideas as I percieve them;

 

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT

Food/Ingredients >> Farmers Market - Stall Seller - Selling >> Money

 

COST/MATERIAL USAGE >> WORKER(S) - PROCESS >> RESULT -> ENABLES

Building materials >> Miner/Mason/Architect - Construction >> Sewer System (<-Badly built sewer system could cause parts of the city to collapse, this could not be implemented I think, but making the sewer system impossible to build without good plans would be wise imo.)

Building materials/Money >> Mason/Crafter/Architect - Construction >> Public Baths ->Hiring cleaners & other employees to the bath house.

Seeds/Plants/Money >> Gardener(Possibly Architect, especially if the city layout isn't supposed to be completely random.) - Gardening >> Parks/Strolling areas/Trees, bushes & flowers in the city.

Building material >> Mason/Crafter - Construction >> Granary -> Stocking on food in case crop is lost to prevent people from starving to death.

 

 

 

PARTIALLY NEW;

 

COST/MATERIAL USAGE >> WORKER(S) - PROCESS >> RESULT -> ENABLES

Money/Weaponry/Armour/Building material >> Mason/Crafter/ - Construction >> Barracks/Armory -> City Guard/Military training

Money >> Weapon Master - City Guard training >> Trained City Guard/Legionaires

Wood/Metal parts/Hay >> Fletcher - Construction >> Archery Range ->Archer training

 

 

Just thought I'd drop my ideas in, some of them are a bit rough around the edges like the Brewery and I wouldn't find it weird if some/most get left out. Do what you want these ideas of mine, now to just type my opinion on some other things regarding how a city/this mod can/would work:

 

-I do believe there could be and there likely is a basic Militia working inside a settlement/town/city before an actual City Guard is formed.

 

-Hiring outsiders as guards is risky as their loyalty is questionable, it's better to train locals/local militia members further and assign them as guards. This could be simply implemented by pre-assigning a few NPC's that are suited and interested in Militia/City Guard work, although giving the player an option to choose several NPC's to work in the officer positions of the guard/militia(Whichever is currently in use.) from all the NPC's and then just generating random guards like in all other cities. That way at least the officers such as the captain of the guard would likely have always a different background depending on what choices have been made by the player earlier(If you manage to add cause & effect to some extent that is, I know adding it to full extent could be a far too time consuming task depending on how many options are given and how many NPC's are linked to the choices.)

 

-Basic militia training could be initiated/done by the player when the settlement is starting to grow in to a small size town, city guard training would be a far bigger task and the player wouldn't likely have the time to organize it all.

 

-Hiring people for work on different things could just happen automatically after the construction is complete, same could be with the guard training, but I think it would be fun to leave at least some expenses to the player as many are complaining about having too much money. I do't see a need to make anything overly complicated though, an employment office could be good to have later when the town grows into a city.

 

-Randomized thief encounters inside the city and small bandit attacks on the city borders every week/every few weeks would liven things up a bit, should the player be there at the time of the event.

 

-Making the town DLOD could be problematic unless you start up with at least a palisade wall large enough to fit the full sized city in it to make everything in a separate cell in order to lower the lag on mid range/lower end PC:s, however this would likely have issues of it's own generating the correct DLOD. I'm not sure if you can create a changing DLOD object though. You could try circumventing this by adding the town in the mountain region and having just a giant gate on the pass leading to the city, while the city itself would lay lower, thus removing the need for any DLOD objects apart from the gate. This on the other hand would add some limitations to the customization options that would be given to the player regarding the city, but this is just an idea I'm throwing here and correct DLOD generation might not actually be an issue at all.

 

~Elraine

 

P.S. Yes, I added bshaeffer's 'foundry' suggestion. I also only skimmed through the majority of the posts, so forgive me if these have been suggested/added earlier. I also know that most of my ideas are more than likely to be over the top, but I hope you'll find something useful among them. I'll fill the list if I come up with something new. Some of these ideas are halfway finished and thus lack either pre-requisites or the final product/effect, I'll add them later aswell if I can come up with something interesting unless someone wants to just continue from this.

 

P.P.S. I apologize for the big wall'o'text and any typos it may contain.

 

P.P.P.S. I'm also rather tired while typing this, so that sentence above is rather important. Once I get some sleep I'll come here to fix my mistakes.

[QQuix]

Wow. Lots of ideas. As always, I like them all.

 

At this point of development (starting the 3rd version of the engine architecture) I read your posts considering whether the present architecture will support the implementation of the suggestions.

 

I am glad to say that most of the ideas are supported, in a sense that they are processes that consume a certain amount of materials and may require the presence of something (a previous building, a specialist, etc).

 

The one that was not supported was the concept of limiting the growth of an indicator until something happens, like IHRE's suggestion for the sewer. I think the Granary would also fall in this category: it is kind of intuitive that you cannot accumulate more than X units of food until you build a Granary to keep it for longer periods.

 

Although this capping capability was not in the plans, I think the architecture allows for easy adding of new types of 'rules', so you may continue to suggest things along this line.

 

About Money:

I think the player should not be allowed to take vanilla gold out of the island.

Main reasons are: (1) eventually, the island would give the player a steady flow of money. If the player plays this mod at the beginning of a new game, this easy-money would spoil the game experience (like the struggle to accumulate money to buy one of the houses). And (2) if the player goes to the island later in the game, money is not a problem and would not be a motivation to play the mod right.

So I am considering removing money altogether or create a local currency that would not be good anywhere else. The local money could be used by the player to, say, build a new room in its island home.

 

DLOD:

I think you touched a serious point here, Elraine.

There will be different buildings at the same spot at different moments in time. I seriously doubt the game engine was built to support this scenario. Not only the buildings. I guess most of the island will be covered with trees at the beginning. At the end, many areas will have the trees removed and replaced by farmland. So, depending on how you generate the VWD objects, you either see (from a distance) farms that are not there yet or don’t see farms that are alreay there.

We will have to live with some wrong LODs, I suppose.

 

 

And don't worry about going too deep.

I hope imagining those things is kind of fun for you guys (and it does help me conceive the architecture).

I kind of go overboard myself with some ideas like:

 

Multi-Skilled NPCs:

This is still a vague, recurring idea of mine: all NPCs in the mod would have a list of skills the same way the PC has one, but instead of vanilla Strength or Speed, the NPCs would have a list of professions, like farmer or smith.

Some possibilities:

- Choosing the right NPC to each job would be an important part of balancing the evolution of the community

- The skill is improved as the NPC use it or by books/spells the player provides (quests?)

- The player could have an NPC working at the same job all his life, which would turn him into a very efficient professional, like a master smith or something.

- Or the player could make him switch jobs and accumulate experience in several crafts . . . (I am not sure why the player would do that, but it would be nice to have a multi-skilled NPC and get some advantage out of it)

- It just occurred to me a good reason for the above: sooner or later the player will get tired of micro-managing the island. At this point he should be able to pass the responsibility over to a few ministers or secretaries and leave the island in an Auto-Management mode. The broader the experience of the secretaries, the better the island would be managed.

- Recruitable NPCs showing up at the inn or at the Recruitment Office would have random skills, so every once in a while a real good professional would show up for recruitment. The better the city (the inn? the docks?), the better the candidates.

- Anyway, it is just a dream . . .