[REQ]New Weapon/SMG

[general_failure]

Well, yes I agree that it's the actual shooter that accounts for well over the majority of accuracy, but you have to take into account that the main character is.... 19! How much experience do you think a snot nose kid living in a vault all their life only shooting a BB gun would really have at firing automatic rifles that are capable of putting you on your ass if not careful would truly have? I say none if you take how the story tells it. Also, I'm sure if you took all the tick mark books from tommy/grease/all SMG's and combined their average you would see those .45 rounds have more of a spread to them, hence being less accurate because not everyone is a super mutant with muscles that make Ahnold(yes, pun on his name) scared or has the skills to actually fire said automatic weapons in full auto accurately, let alone in a gun fight which of course you don't take tick marks off of.

 

Either way I say ALL guns should be put into fallout 3 and let the player decide on which one sucks or not >:3

 

Oh and another thing that always ticked me off about games that do recoil and muzzle lift that I can't believe they still do it(not in fallout thankfully), if you just press fire on full auto, you'll end up looking straight up, it's like... COME ON NO ONE IS THAT INCOMPETENT AT SHOOTING, Bioshock for instance did what I'm talking about, give it whirl

 

PS. lol, funny thing just happened with my roommate in fallout, the stranger came out to kill someone and while they were shooting at my roommates target another raider was shooting at the stranger, I totally didn't know npc's would shoot at the stranger.

[Bean0]

I'd like to see a new SMG.

In fact I'd like to see a remodel of the old one, the default 10mm SMG looks like crap.

[Wreckless1]

Well, yes I agree that it's the actual shooter that accounts for well over the majority of accuracy, but you have to take into account that the main character is.... 19! How much experience do you think a snot nose kid living in a vault all their life only shooting a BB gun would really have at firing automatic rifles that are capable of putting you on your ass if not careful would truly have?

...

 

Let me be clear - as an RPG, having a maxed-out small guns skill should mean that your Character is such an astoundingly skilled badass that your PC's work with a firearm makes all of Christian Bale's gun-kata antics in Equilibrium look like the sloppy work of a mentally retarded gorilla with no thumbs, as well as make every shootout scene in The Matrix series look like a riverdance balleria number with the dancers firing a bunch of blanks. A character with a maxed out Small Guns skill is that guy that makes EVERYONE look like an utter buffoon at a shooting range. *THAT* is what maxed skills should be like.

 

This is regardless of your character being an 19 year old 'Vault Dweller' I know shooters that have earned their Distinguished Marksman as teenagers.

Care to tell me how many 19 year old 'Vault Dwellers' would be able to talk The Master out of his diabolical plan to FEV the whole world in FO1 or how many 19 year old tribals could wipe out the whole friggin Enclave in FO2? Let alone a 16 year old, since you could MAKE a 16 year old character do both of those things?

 

Besides, Bethesda had a fit of idiocy in making the skills only go to 100% and a '100%' value in any of the fighting skills isn't NEARLY as potent as it should be. Then again, the fact that damage is bound to your skill with guns and explosives is literally as stupid as suggesting that spoons are responsible for obesity. Bullets and grenades do the exact same damage whether dropped by a toddler or used with 20 years of solid training and experience.

 

Also, how the heck a "100%" in Small Guns could make someone capable of shooting a thrown grenade while mid-air (which *IS* possible for a truly expert shooter, I've seen folks shoot thrown clay pigeons unerringly with a .22LR)

Yet, while you can shoot airborne grenades with utter certainty while being shot at from 6 different bad guys, yet you can't hit a stationary guy in the face with a sniper rifle at 200 yards.... sigh.

 

 

So yeah, They aren't sniper rifles, but they are certainly not ineffective at range in skilled hands!

 

 

Edit:

COME ON NO ONE IS THAT INCOMPETENT AT SHOOTING

 

I will agree that the way full-auto recoil is implemented in games like Bioshock is not a very good representation of how FA's behave - But yes, there are millions of people who are literally *THAT* incompetent at shooting.

Ignorance is not a crime - I can't fault someone for having sloppy technique or poor form or inexperience if they've never had the opportunity to fire a gun, let alone a weapon firing fully automatic.

What I *CAN* fault them for is when they talk all tough tony baloney like they've been shooting machine guns since they were still in diapers, only to make complete asses of themselves as they try to show off when they clearly haven't the faintest idea of how to do it right.

 

I've lost count of the number of people that ended up mishandling a full-auto weapon or breaking a safety rule after the recoil & muzzle climb was more than they expected. That is precisely the reason that I'll only load 5 rounds or so into the first few magazines for a novice MG shooter - then work up to 10 rounds, etc.

While many guys have resented this practice on my part (and several have been baldly offended), I've yet to have a girl complain and in the end it is truly a matter of safety and I *WILL NOT* compromise safety on a shooting range, especially for the sake of some armchair PX ranger wannabe's fragile ego.

The predictable irony of course is that the folks who accept that policy of 5 rounds per mag without a second thought are the folks who have zero problem with weapons handling or controlling a weapon on FA. The guys who get all huffy and offended by that practice are by far and away the most likely to make huge mistakes and shoot like poo, or worse yet, totally break safety rules out of negligence or failing to control a weapon on FA.

 

Long story short, true experience will speak for itself. If you lack true experience, don't worry about impressing anyone - instead, ask as many questions as cross your mind and focus on becoming better than you are. No matter how good you are, you can always get better.

 

 

But the bottom line is the same as what I say in all of these threads - we have dozens of shooters that focus obsessively on the myriad of existing firearms.... Fallout is special because it is NOT real! So lets see some of the M199 "Backtalkers" and other such firearms from the oh so dark and lovely and post-retro-modern world of Fallout.

Sure, there's M3A1's and Tommy guns and that's cool. What about M72 Gauss Rifles? What about the XL70E3's and the AK-112's? Lets get un-stuck from the real world and focus on stuff that would make Fallout more Fallouty.

 

I want to see a 5mm AK-127 squad support variant with a 100 round magazine and fires at twice the rate of its AK-112 sister design. I want to see a Wattz Electronics B-120 Civilian Laser Hunting Rifles (higher damage than laser rifle + scope? yes please!!)

I want to see Winchester K77 defensive Plasma Pistols, I want to see Chinese Wan-Sang Z-141 Pulse Laser Rifles and Chinese Type 971K 10mm SMG's.... and so on and so forth. Why stick to existing weapons when you could instead enhance and deepen the lore and fluff of the Fallout world?

 

Ultimately, every gun that 'sucks' or 'rocks' is entirely dependent on game mechanics and how its set up. Why would you want to bind that to a very real weapon and be saddled with having to balance that weapon's performance in reality to its performance in game for everyone to be happy, when you could just fluff things up with fictional weapons that can be balanced for gameplay without issue, and let everyone take the delightful Fallouty fluff at face value?

 

 

Oh, and as far as rifles that knock people on their asses... most folks -experienced or not- have an extremely hard time keeping a G3 tame on full auto. After putting one 20 round mag of .308 through a G3 on full auto, I for one couldn't understand why they even put a selector lever on it to allow full-auto fire. Anyone under 120kg/250lbs or so would have a huge difficultly keeping that weapon under control and on-target effectively while firing full auto.

AK's in 7.62x39 are very muzzle-climb happy but much much MUCH more controllable than any FN-FAL, G3, or M14 on full auto.

Shame that both the G3 and AK fire 5.56 Nato from 24 round magazines in FO3...

[BulletSix]

pure theoretic here *g*

 

but the HK33 is basically a G3 re-chambered for 5.56 NATO, right? (http://www.hkpro.com/HK33.htm)

 

This leaves the current model with an odd magazine shape for the HK33 (no curved one) but hey it hols only 24 rounds not 30 (in vanilla that is), but at least it shoots the right caliber ;)

[Wreckless1]

*edit* oops... double post :(

[Wreckless1]

pure theoretic here *g*

 

but the HK33 is basically a G3 re-chambered for 5.56 NATO, right? (http://www.hkpro.com/HK33.htm)

 

This leaves the current model with an odd magazine shape for the HK33 (no curved one) but hey it hols only 24 rounds not 30 (in vanilla that is), but at least it shoots the right caliber ;)

 

Not anymore than a BMW M3 is a shrunk version of an M5. Similarities in design and parentage yes but far from the same design.

The principals of operation are the identical yes.

Yours is a good train of thought - but its going to take more than 'bending' the magazine to a curved design to make an HK33 out of what is a faithful and surprisingly accurate model of a G3A3... its actual game/weapons statistics aside.

 

The problem is that the receiver & magazine well of the G3A3 is significantly larger than that of an HK33 or its sister the G41, and the G3 also is considerably heftier, a bit longer, basically just a bigger weapon. That can't be fixed my simply 'shrinking' the G3A3 model either. With the exception of 'shelf-type' trigger groups found in the semiauto HK rifles sold the US during the 80's (a design change to make it that much more difficult to swap in full auto parts)

 

The detachable trigger group pack is interchangeable and basically identical between same-generation MP5's, HK33's, G3A3's, etc. So while the trigger group stays the same size as in the G3A3 model, but the buttstock needs to be slightly shorter and loses one push pin, the barrel is obviously thinner and a bit shorter and the handguard is shorter as well, and the magazine well is smaller particularly in overall length because of the much shorter cartridge. The receiver itself keeps close to the same width and height, but overall length is reduced, partially because of the mag well, partially because of the smaller bolt and bolt carrier it houses.

 

Oh, and about modifying these rifles - the barrels of all the HK roller locked weapons (MP5, G3, HK33, G41, et al) are physically pressed into the receiver and trunnion with some ridiculous 15 or 20 Ton press - changing barrels, and thus changing calibers, is well nigh impossible for all but the most well equipped and skilled gunsmiths.

 

Here's an HK33.

Note the shelf-type trigger group - the weapon pictured is an HK93 that was painstakingly converted to an HK33 configuration legally by a Class III manufacturer and registered before that was made illegal in 1986. This one is for sale for the low low price of $16,999.. a bargain right? :blink:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/nfa/mgc_k806.jpg

 

Here's a pair of HK91's in G3K and G3A3 sizing, respectively. I tried to find better pictures of actual G3's but these illustrate what I needed.

http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/images/g3kand91.jpg

The G3K in the top photo uses an HK33 handguard, its visibly shorter by around 1.5 inches. Also note how much wider (longer in relation to the overall length of the weapon) the actual G3 magazine is in comparison to the HK33's. Also note the shorter/different buttstock design that uses two pins and a much longer 'sleeve' over the receiver in the HK91/G3 configuration

 

 

So, that's a little more elaborate than need be, but suffice to say that your idea is a great one, but it'd be best served by someone remodeling a true HK33 instead of trying to tweak the existing G3A3 model into correctness, but using the trigger group area as a beginning point for the HK33 model wouldn't be a bad idea and it would keep the size constancy absolutely correct.

 

BTW - Most of the magazines floating around for the HK33/53/93 are 25 rounders and 40 rounders. HK made 30 rounders later on to appease Militaries and Police Departments that wanted 30 rounders to match M16/AK thinking, but they aren't nearly as common. So yeah, Beth could have damn near nailed it with a 25 round magazine and an HK33 model instead of a G3A3... but that still wouldn't explain why the same ammo does less damage when fired from an AK lol.

 

Hmm... maybe someone should do a G3K mod!

[Rkotcha]

I actually modeled HK33 a while back, I think I will texture it and see who's willing to mod it for me

 

http://image.hazardstrip.com/ss/models/169.jpg

 

http://image.hazardstrip.com/ss/models/171.jpg

[BulletSix]

hey Wreckless, thanks for the education :)

 

(really, i found it interesting)

 

now i see the differences, too. Especially after your explanation. (Maybe i should have known from the start, since i made some gun-stuff in JA2 ;) ^^ ) So my idea isn´t a real solution *g*

but one i still dislike less than calling it G3 and firing 5.56 ;)

So after today i´ll rename mine as "HK3-Fall" or something like that *g*

[Wreckless1]

I actually modeled HK33 a while back, I think I will texture it and see who's willing to mod it for me

 

http://image.hazardstrip.com/ss/models/169.jpg

 

That is an outstanding model of an HK33. But please, keep the rice rails off of the gun in FO3!!! :)

 

Seriously, that'd be an excellent model replacement for the G3.

 

 

Bullet_Six - you're very welcome! :)

I'm sorry my train-of-thought posts sometimes get a bit random, I'll try to keep things a little more clear in the future.

There's just so much information to convey!