Lachdonin Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 As many have said, neither side is good, nor evil. Neither side is right, nor wrong. Both have valid points to their arguements, to the point where both sides are equally weighted. This isn't an NCR vs Caesar's Legion thing, where one side is clearly worse... This is like deciding if you want to go to the Resteraunt which bakes its potatoes, or the one which boils them. Even the Thalmor aren't nessessarily evil, though it's easy to see it that way. Their beleif that the Mer are superior because of their divine heritage, and the (potential, and as yet unconfirmed) desire to return to their Et'Ada origins is just as legitimate as the ideals of the Stormcloaks or the Empire. It comes with a lot of colateral damage, of course, but the history of Nirn does in fact support their possition, that being that they are decended from Gods, and humans are... well... Mortal. But anyway, there are plenty of threads already here about arguements between Stormcloak and Imperial, i'm sure its easy enough to find them. If picking the right side, ethically, means a lot to you, you'll have to read the arguements and judge for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riprock Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 it's a wonderfully complex situation, if the player makes a choice on Empire or Stormcloaks based on good vs bad My personal feeling is that the Empire didn't get 'peace'. They got Occupation and Foreign rule, because the agents of another country have a free hand to do as they see fit. The rebels want an end to that, which on the surface is fine, but they follow a man they think is many things. He's few of them in reality, just like any folk hero, and that's what he is- a Folk Hero that you find out is human and flawed. The military leader of the Empire in Skyrim is OK with people being handed over for death by torture, and his troops make callous decisions between life and death- like when you were brought to Helgen. Ulfric has a questionable relationship with the Thalmor, according to them, but his actions show he doesn't work for them...but still a question mark remains, as the issue is never resolved All interesting and never really addressed, and still a year later we discuss it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Also, just listen to the difference between Stormcloak and Imperial soldiers' voices.. Imperials sound like the stereotypical evil soldiers that go around violating women and looting and pillaging while covered in their own feces (ala this guy: http://media.theiapolis.com/b000000/d4/hLC/i1SGY/k2/l1GB/s6/t3/wSG/y04/braveheart.jpg) while Stormcloaks sound like your typical rough and tumble good guys. (ala these guys: http://www.itusozluk.com/image/braveheart_197485.jpg) Point being, right from the start, the game makes it hard to really like the Imperials, with only Hadvar being the sole likable one. But even then, was I the only one that got the impression that Hadvar was the sort that would actually turn sides? Thats what he appeared to be to me when I started my first game, and indeed I was genuinely surprised when I found that we had to choose between him and Ralof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchMeGoing Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Also, just listen to the difference between Stormcloak and Imperial soldiers' voices.. Imperials sound like the stereotypical evil soldiers that go around violating women and looting and pillaging while covered in their own feces...What? Are you even talking about Skyrim? I think you mixed braveheart and skyrim too much and it's clouding your judgement. If anything it's the stormcloaks that sound evil with their racist remarks and their "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude. It's true that the game pushes you towards the stormcloaks in the beginning. What fool would follow an imperial soldier after the legion just tried to execute you without any kind of trial or even the slightest clue that you are actually a criminal? It doesn't help that Hadvar keeps calling you "prisoner" during the escape, which makes it seem like he isn't planning on cutting you loose. However, once you get out of Helgen and the game really begins, the imperials generally seem the more sensible type. Edited November 20, 2012 by WatchMeGoing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 All in all, if you actually immerse yourself into the game what the Stormcloaks say reallly isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Also doesn't help that most of the racism and xenophobia that get put on the shoulders of the Stormcloaks are sourced from very bad sources that don't represent the whole of the Stormcloak cause and more the invididuals that go on about those things. And its not very wise to judge an entire movement (particularly one like the Rebellion) on a few racists and xenophobes that can't really help how they are. Same with judging the rebellion based on Ulfric. Sure the rebellion is named after him and he started it but thats as far as it goes. Everything else people like to use as arguments against him and by extension the rebellion, in reality, have little to nothing to do with the rebellion at all. Say what you want about Ulfric, but whatever immediate or near immediate negative results come out of the Rebellion will have little impact on the long term benefits of a Rebel victory. Even if all the doom and gloom thats constantly expressed against Ulfric would come to be true, the entire existence of humanity in Tamriel for centuries to come (If not era's) is more than enough compensation for a few decades of having to deal with a less than ideal leader for Skyrim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchMeGoing Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Say what you want about Ulfric, but whatever immediate or near immediate negative results come out of the Rebellion will have little impact on the long term benefits of a Rebel victory. So you completely dismiss the fact that a rebel victory will leave Skyrim pretty much defenseless against the Thalmor oppression? You think the Dominion will just cut their losses in Skyrim and forget about the place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoulz Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Say what you want about Ulfric, but whatever immediate or near immediate negative results come out of the Rebellion will have little impact on the long term benefits of a Rebel victory. So you completely dismiss the fact that a rebel victory will leave Skyrim pretty much defenseless against the Thalmor oppression? You think the Dominion will just cut their losses in Skyrim and forget about the place? Maybe they can beg Hammerfell for aid like stubborn little babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Maybe they can beg Hammerfell for aid like stubborn little babies. The Redguard wouldn't back them up because of religious differances. They hate Lorkhan (Shor) almost as much as the elves, and have always had it out for the Nords because of his place in their pantheon. But i digress, this isn't a "who would be better for Skyrim" discussion. Its about good and evil. Fact is, you can't even consider the Daedra evil if you go deep enough down the rabbit hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifur68 Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Even if Skyrim wins and pushed out the Imperial army unless the Empire is so weakened that it can't respond or is unwilling to take it back then the Imperial Legions would be marching in force for Skyrim to crush the Nord rebellion once and for all with overwhelming force. If nothing else allowing Skyrim to break away from the Empire may encourage other proveinces to attempt do so as well. No doubt the Thalmor would want to go along for the ride with the Imperial Legions to ensure the destruction of all Talos shrines. The Emperor can't afford to appear weak in the face of the Aldmeri Dominion so Skyrim must be retaken from the rebels...but of course internal conflict in the Empire weakens it without the Aldmeri Dominion having to do anything. I get the impression its just a matter of time before the Aldmeri Dominion is ready for another invasion attempt to topple the Empire and if the Empire destroys itself from within the easier conquering it will be. I look at the Roman Empire as the basis for The Elder Scrolls Empire and one thing the romans did was conquer and Romanize the population...but they were also swift to put down revolts by the locals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 'Romanization" didn't actually occur in the unilateral sense that most history books depict it. Yes, remnants of Roman culture can still be found across the territories they once occupied, but the cultural flow was just as previlent from the perepherie towards the Roman core. For instance, the female statuary found throughout Roman (and now Turkish) baths is actually the depiction of a Celtic goddess assocaited with family (her name escapes me at the moment). Styles of pottery found throughout the Roman Empire can actually be traced to spain, and the particular means of Ironworking which became characteristic of Rome, and most of the Midieval period, was actually take grom Gaul. What we, today, view as 'Cosmopolitan Roman" is in fact a conglomeration of cultural practices and art which has roots all over the old world, but only became uniformly expressed in Rome because of the cetralised wealth base of the empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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