Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[BrettM]

Beth can do pretty much anything they want with the story, given that our choice was ultimately inconclusive. If the Empire won, well, there are still Stormcloak camps out there and the rebellion could still make a comeback. Likewise, if the Stormcloaks won, there are still Imperial camps out there who might someday turn the tide. No matter which side "wins", the jarls supporting the other side are all still alive and sequestered, available to be put back on their thrones, while Elisif is still on hers either way and the Moot has not yet met to confirm or deny her claim. So Skyrim could end up independent or could remain in the Empire in the long run no matter which side you supported in the quest line. All the elements are in place to justify either.

 

The only thing Beth can't do is have either leader live. But, that's easy enough to handle by just introducing a history book that says both leaders were killed at some point during the course of the rebellion before the matter was finally settled.

[luzburg]

The famous Roman style of fighting was adopted from the Celts also.

[Inquart]

Beth can do pretty much anything they want with the story, given that our choice was ultimately inconclusive. If the Empire won, well, there are still Stormcloak camps out there and the rebellion could still make a comeback. Likewise, if the Stormcloaks won, there are still Imperial camps out there who might someday turn the tide. No matter which side "wins", the jarls supporting the other side are all still alive and sequestered, available to be put back on their thrones, while Elisif is still on hers either way and the Moot has not yet met to confirm or deny her claim.

 

Agreed, though I think that without Ulfric to lead his Stormcloaks (if you sided with the Empire and executed him) or without General Tullius to command the Imperials (if you sided with the rebels and killed him), the rebellion is pretty much finished either way, though I think the Empire is in better position anyway, even if defeated by the Stormcloaks, because the rebellion started with Ulfric and practically ended with his death, whereas the Empire can simply replace Tullius with some other Legion officer (even if it'd be hard to find another as cunning, passionate and competent as Tullius is) and continue the fight from those hidden camps.

[Freya1997]

For some reason whenever I see General Tullius, I start thinking of Julius Caesar.

 

And yeah I agree that the rebellion seems to be tied to Ulfric and would most likely just die with him, but as Tullius mentions after Ulfric is executed, he's hoping he didn't just create a martyr.

[Inquart]

For some reason whenever I see General Tullius, I start thinking of Julius Caesar.

 

Good to know I'm not the only one. Tullius' physical likeness to Caesar is remarkable, isn't it? I'm sure his character was rather heavily inspired by Caesar. It would get along nicely with all that Roman-Cyrodiil Empire thing.

 

And yeah I agree that the rebellion seems to be tied to Ulfric and would most likely just die with him, but as Tullius mentions after Ulfric is executed, he's hoping he didn't just create a martyr.

 

You're right, though I think Ulfric's martyrdom would paradoxically only further weaken his remaining troops in case of their long-term resistance; while it would be enough to keep his men together, without Ulfric's actual command they would just turn into raging lunatics, charging Imperial lines with his "glorious" name on their lips, but probably without any strategic forethought, without any planing (which never was the Stormcloaks' specialty anyway). You know, something like "Ulfric is watching us from Sovngarde, he will surely grant us victory over those faithless Imperial dogs!". Ulfric as a martyr would be a powerful force, to be sure, but without both him and his primitive sidekick Galmar Stone-Fist, the rebellion as a military undertaking is done, in my opinion anyway. This, however, opens up a possibility of a silent resistance of some kind, just like it was before Ulfric's uprising (if memory serves me well, Hadvar's uncle from Riverwood, Alvor, mentioned a time before Ulfric when people were worshipping Talos anyway in their homes, thus opposing both the Empire and its ban on Talos and the Aldmeri Dominion as well, while not fighting with the Empire directly).

[Freya1997]

 

Good to know I'm not the only one. Tullius' physical likeness to Caesar is remarkable, isn't it? I'm sure his character was rather heavily inspired by Caesar. It would get along nicely with all that Roman-Cyrodiil Empire thing.

Aye it is. Even his hair! So whenever I see him I can't help but wonder if Tullius will parallel Julius Caesars take over of Rome. It certainly wouldn't surprise me at this point. So he'd probably die in his 50ies too. xD

 

You're right, though I think Ulfric's martyrdom would paradoxically only further weaken his remaining troops in case of their long-term resistance; while it would be enough to keep his men together, without Ulfric's actual command they would just turn into raging lunatics, charging Imperial lines with his "glorious" name on their lips, but probably without any strategic forethought, without any planing (which never was the Stormcloaks' specialty anyway). You know, something like "Ulfric is watching us from Sovngarde, he will surely grant us victory over those faithless Imperial dogs!". Ulfric as a martyr would be a powerful force, to be sure, but without both him and his primitive sidekick Galmar Stone-Fist, the rebellion as a military undertaking is done, in my opinion anyway. This, however, opens up a possibility of a silent resistance of some kind, just like it was before Ulfric's uprising (if memory serves me well, Hadvar's uncle from Riverwood, Alvor, mentioned a time before Ulfric when people were worshipping Talos anyway in their homes, thus opposing both the Empire and its ban on Talos and the Aldmeri Dominion as well, while not fighting with the Empire directly).

That's also a possibility yes. I find it amusing that if Ulfric hadn't stirred up trouble, the Thalmor would never have managed to establish the foothold it currently has nor would the ban on Talos worship even be an issue since the empire was flat out ignoring it and could get away with it(at least for the most part).

[imperistan]

Ulfric isn't the core of the rebellion, nor is he the core strategist. For one, few but those closest to Ulfric himself actually fight for the real man himself. The vast majority are fighting for their own reasons, for Skyrim their home and their faith. The few others that don't fall into those categories are instead fighting for Ulfric the idea, not the man. Most of the Stormcloak soldiers won't have even seen Ulfric in person, so they'll be basing their opinion of him on what they hear of him. And if what they hear gets them riled up, then of course they'll scream his name in battle. Its literally no different that invoking the name of a god in battle, except its a normal living man of near legendary status.

 

But even so, for those that do fight for Ulfric, be it the man or the idea, if he dies that isn't going to kill their fighting spirit, for whether they know it or not at the bottom of it all they're still fighting for Skyrim and their faith. Everything else is really just political facewash.

 

 

(if memory serves me well, Hadvar's uncle from Riverwood, Alvor, mentioned a time before Ulfric when people were worshipping Talos anyway in their homes, thus opposing both the Empire and its ban on Talos and the Aldmeri Dominion as well, while not fighting with the Empire directly).

 

Ignoring an unjust law is a far cry from openly rebelling against not only the law, but also the greater powers that allowed it to come to fruition.

[Inquart]

Ulfric isn't the core of the rebellion, nor is he the core strategist. For one, few but those closest to Ulfric himself actually fight for the real man himself. The vast majority are fighting for their own reasons, for Skyrim their home and their faith. The few others that don't fall into those categories are instead fighting for Ulfric the idea, not the man. Most of the Stormcloak soldiers won't have even seen Ulfric in person, so they'll be basing their opinion of him on what they hear of him. And if what they hear gets them riled up, then of course they'll scream his name in battle. Its literally no different that invoking the name of a god in battle, except its a normal living man of near legendary status.

 

Yes, there are people among the Stormcloaks that seem to fight for themselves and for their own reasons rather than Ulfric (though I can't seem to forget about that blacksmith girl from Windhelm, who saw Ulfric just once and for a brief moment, but for the rest of the game is all wet about him) - or at least that's what they were led to think - but the military uprising as we know it started only with Ulfric; he'd thrown a burning torch on that powder-filled barrel Skyrim was. With his own and Galmar's possible death, who would lead the rebels to fight on? Of course some other leader might appear after Ulfric's demise, but I've never heard about any other high-ranking Stormcloak officer, whereas in case of the Empire and Tullius' and Rikke's death, they might simply be replaced by other Legion officers from Cyrodiil and still turn the tide. Basically, what I'm trying to say is: the Empire is a state, weakened as it is, but still a state, while the Stormcloaks are rebels even in their own province. With Ulfric dead, I think I'd be rather hard for them to gain any more support, especially while being reduced to some small pockets of largely uncoordinated resistance, but I may be wrong.

 

Ignoring an unjust law is a far cry from openly rebelling against not only the law, but also the greater powers that allowed it to come to fruition.

 

I know that having to conceal your own religion - based on worshipping one of Skyrim's greatest heroes and its native son - in your own land isn't fair at all, but let's not forget that the Empire was forced to introduce that ban on Talos worship, it wasn't something they themselves wanted; they didn't even arrested anyone for still worshipping Talos in his home right up until Ulfric started his rebellion, which in turn forced the Empire to react accordingly, i. e. to crush the rebellion as quick as possible before the Thalmor swoop down to do it themselves. I think and really hope, based on Tullius' words after Ulfric's execution, that the Empire is simply buying its time to rebuild its former strength, to rise up again one day and take its sweet revenge upon the Dominion, which undoubtedly is the true enemy of both the Empire itself and the Stormcloaks. So even if Ulfric's uprising was somehow justified, it ultimately served only the Thalmor by strengthening their quasi-inquisitorial presence in Skyrim (as Freya said) while further weakening the Empire, its grip on the province and delaying its rebirth from ruins (it is obvious that after capturing and breaking him, the Elves set Ulfric free in hope that he can stir the situation up and further destabilize the Empire). Again though, I may be wrong, it's just my opinion.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Inquart

[Lachdonin]

. So even if Ulfric's uprising was somehow justified,

 

Just to point out, the Stormcloaks are justified in their possition. So are the Imperials. Part of the beauty (and the infuriating quality) of the Rebellion angle is that both sides have just as much ethical ground to support them.

 

Still, it is exceptionally clear (though unfortunately not to a select few Stormcloak supporters, here and elsewhere) that the Empire doesn't even view the Stormcloak rebellion as a real concern, and is already gearing up for another war with the Domminion. Thus, i maintain the stance that a Stormcloak victory only serves to weaken the overall chances of defeating the Domminion, by stripping the Empire of needed manpower and resources at a crucial, pre-engagement period.

 

And again, as a technicality, the Talos ban was not unjust. It was the preservation of primary liberties (survival / peace) at the expense of secondary liberties (religion). Any Ethics of Freedom specialist would side with the Empire on this one, particularly since we're given so little information as to the actual terms of the White Gold Concordant.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Lachdonin

[Inquart]

Still, it is exceptionally clear (though unfortunately not to a select few Stormcloak supporters, here and elsewhere) that the Empire doesn't even view the Stormcloak rebellion as a real concern, and is already gearing up for another war with the Domminion. Thus, i maintain the stance that a Stormcloak victory only serves to weaken the overall chances of defeating the Domminion, by stripping the Empire of needed manpower and resources at a crucial, pre-engagement period.

 

My thoughts and point exactly. And while I don't believe in Ulfric being a Thalmor agent per se, his actions surely played well into the Elves' greedy hands, further weakening not only the Empire itself, but also his beloved Skyrim.

 

And again, as a technicality, the Talos ban was not unjust. It was the preservation of primary liberties (survival / peace) at the expense of secondary liberties (religion). Any Ethics of Freedom specialist would side with the Empire on this one, particularly since we're given so little information as to the actual terms of the White Gold Concordant.

 

Yes, by the time the ban on Talos worship was introduced via the White-Gold Concordat, it was the only thing the Empire could do to survive. That's why I think that the Empire's more or less willing "alliance" with those pointy-eared Thalmor bastards is just temporary, but to be honest, I'm a little bit concerned about the Empire's condition after one of the last Dark Brotherhood quests, you know what I mean. If there's more people like Motierre out there and in the Council, I fear that even if the Empire regains its overall strength one day, it will be still weak inside and thus unable to defeat the Dominion.