Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[Lachdonin]

Yes, by the time the ban on Talos worship was introduced via the White-Gold Concordat, it was the only thing the Empire could do to survive. That's why I think that the Empire's more or less willing "alliance" with those pointy-eared Thalmor bastards is just temporary,

 

You are told by several sources in the game, including Balgruf, Tullius and (alluded) the Emperor that the Empire fully intends to take the offensive against the Domminion. In fact, Tullius laments having to recruit locals, of uncertian loyalty, instead of having real Legion regulars, simply because the Empore's real forces are elsewhere preparing for a real enemy. The Concordant was less of an 'Alliance' and more of a repreive.

 

As for the end of the Dark Brotherhood quest, the Emperor himself seems to indicate that his death is good for the Empire, and that he's put things in place to ensure the succession is smooth. Furthermore, Motierre implies that there are far more dynamic individual intrests in the Empire. You can, of course, take it all as an even darker cloud over the Empire, or you can read it with optimism. I prefer to see it as Mede being a tired old man, unwilling to re-witness the horrors of war, and his death signals the end of the appeasement policies of the last 2 decades.

 

The issue of Ulfric as a Thalmor 'Asset' is one which is, at best, dubious. We don't know whether he is activly working for the Thalmor, if he is subjected by some spell which makes him a ticking time bomb, or if it's just his predictability which makes the Thalmor view him as something to their advantage.

[Inquart]

You are told by several sources in the game, including Balgruf, Tullius and (alluded) the Emperor that the Empire fully intends to take the offensive against the Domminion. In fact, Tullius laments having to recruit locals, of uncertian loyalty, instead of having real Legion regulars, simply because the Empore's real forces are elsewhere preparing for a real enemy. The Concordant was less of an 'Alliance' and more of a repreive.

 

I know, I know. Just out of curiosity: you think we get to somehow witness that second Empire-Dominion war? Maybe through some DLC? I'd sure love a chance to really put those Thalmor in their place - and I'm probably not the only one.

 

As for the end of the Dark Brotherhood quest, the Emperor himself seems to indicate that his death is good for the Empire, and that he's put things in place to ensure the succession is smooth. Furthermore, Motierre implies that there are far more dynamic individual intrests in the Empire. You can, of course, take it all as an even darker cloud over the Empire, or you can read it with optimism. I prefer to see it as Mede being a tired old man, unwilling to re-witness the horrors of war, and his death signals the end of the appeasement policies of the last 2 decades.

 

Agreed. I couldn't help but to think that the Emperor actually wanted to die and in some way I'm even glad I've been able to free him from his burden. And I hope that another Emperor, whomever this might be, will be truly worth of that title.

 

The issue of Ulfric as a Thalmor 'Asset' is one which is, at best, dubious. We don't know whether he is activly working for the Thalmor, if he is subjected by some spell which makes him a ticking time bomb, or if it's just his predictability which makes the Thalmor view him as something to their advantage.

 

I would say it's the third option. As I said - they knew he's going to make a lot of trouble when they were letting him go.

[Lachdonin]

I know, I know. Just out of curiosity: you think we get to somehow witness that second Empire-Dominion war?

 

I personally hope not. I think the Domminion / Empire thing is far too big, and offers far too many story potentials, to religate to DLC. If we get involved, it should be as a stand alone TES title, with its own war-related DLC. It's really the only way to properly explore the sheer weight of storylines that would be involved in an actual war.

[Inquart]

I personally hope not. I think the Domminion / Empire thing is far too big, and offers far too many story potentials, to religate to DLC. If we get involved, it should be as a stand alone TES title, with its own war-related DLC. It's really the only way to properly explore the sheer weight of storylines that would be involved in an actual war.

 

Yeah, I have a similar opinion on that matter. Problem is, the next TES game will probably be set another 200 or more years forth and I suspect that by that time, the war would be long over. It's easier that way, at least for Bethesda - instead of showing us an actual war, just wrote somewhere that it happened and how it ended...

[UrgeNexus]

I personally hope not. I think the Domminion / Empire thing is far too big, and offers far too many story potentials, to religate to DLC. If we get involved, it should be as a stand alone TES title, with its own war-related DLC. It's really the only way to properly explore the sheer weight of storylines that would be involved in an actual war.

 

Yeah, I have a similar opinion on that matter. Problem is, the next TES game will probably be set another 200 or more years forth and I suspect that by that time, the war would be long over. It's easier that way, at least for Bethesda - instead of showing us an actual war, just wrote somewhere that it happened and how it ended...

Why would it be set another 200 years ahead? Morrowind and Oblivion are only 5 years or so apart. In fact, every game with the exception of Redguard and Skyrim has taken place in the third era, during Uriel Septim VII's lifetime.

 

There is no sensible reason to jump that far ahead in time again after Skyrim, everything they have built up to would be rendered pointless, I seriously doubt Bethesda's writers are that stupid.

[Inquart]

I seriously doubt Bethesda's writers are that stupid.

 

I hope you're right on that one.

[UrgeNexus]

I seriously doubt Bethesda's writers are that stupid.

 

I hope you're right on that one.

I think I am, it wouldn't make any sense for them to ignore the Thalmor entirely after everything they've done to build them up as a major threat to not just Tamriel, but all of reality.

[imperistan]

My thoughts and point exactly. And while I don't believe in Ulfric being a Thalmor agent per se, his actions surely played well into the Elves' greedy hands, further weakening not only the Empire itself, but also his beloved Skyrim.

 

Using that logic, the Dunmer losing faith in Vivec also aided the Thalmor.

 

You really cannot use this kind of logic in this situation. Benefiting the Thalmor (and by extension weakening the Empire) simply does not automatically equal being wrong, even remotely so. For one, the Empire has long since stopped being the the duct-tape that kept Tamriel from tearing itself apart, but at this point it can only just barely keep whats left of it together. (and this isn't getting into how this is a completely different Empire from the one we used to know)

 

Two, despite all the posturing on both sides, neither the Dominion nor the Empire could actually deal with another war with each other any time soon. Both armies are strained (Empire with its stretching borders, the Dominion with its severe shortage of troops) even 20 years after the war ended (And for the Dominion its worse, as they had to continue in a rather bloody war with Hammerfel for 5 years), are extremely weak (Dominion inherently so, the Legion from degradation), and neither side could really sustain the supply chains necessary for an invasion of their opponents holdings. The Empire would have not only secure Skyrim, but would also have to secure Hammerfel, which is severely unlikely to actually happen in order to realistically invade the Dominion and actually conquer it. And the Dominion simply does not have the man-power to drawn from. Elsweyr has shown it will not commit to full-on war (They were not present in the Great War), and Valenwood and Alinor alone could not realistically take Cyrodiil, Hammerfel, High Rock, AND Skyrim, and keep them at the same time unless they literally kill everyone that isn't with them, which would be far too unrealistic to actually happen. And even with Elsweyr's help it still couldn't happen.

 

Yes, by the time the ban on Talos worship was introduced via the White-Gold Concordat, it was the only thing the Empire could do to survive.

 

Which is total bunk. If the Dominion could have just walked right back in and retaken Cyrodiil they would have. They took far more than they initially thought they would when they first invaded and they actually did extremely well for the bulk of the time, and this was because of its cloak and dagger tactics that completely undermined the Legion before the invasion. It was only when the full brunt of several Legions of men was brought to bare against the occupation army in a direct ground battle that they were stopped, and they were stopped hard, given the fact that the entire occupation army was slaughtered.

 

Never again could the Dominion have actually done much against the Empire after this, as they simply would not be able to actually cope with the direct ground war they would be forced into. This is evident in Hammerfel where a single fraction of a Legion plus whatever militia could be rounded up stalemated the entirety of the Dominion. You might say that this was because of what happened in Cyrodiil, and while true, that misses the point.

 

IF, after the War of the Red Ring, the Dominion could not conquer Hammerfel (a single province with far less resources and manpower than the Empire) after 5 years, then they could not do ANYTHING to the Empire + Hammerfel. Period.

 

At best, the Dominion could have outright wasted Cyrodiil again. At best. But they still would have lost. All evidence shows this would have been the case back then, and not only that, back then it would have been fairly obvious as well. Hell, even if we want to presume that for whatever reason Mede couldn't see this, it still doesn't change the fact that after 3-4 years of Hammerfel stalemating the Dominion the Empire could and should have rescinded the WGC and resumed the war, at least until a peace can be had that doesn't completely cater to the Dominion's (The Defeated party) original demands.

 

You are told by several sources in the game, including Balgruf, Tullius and (alluded) the Emperor that the Empire fully intends to take the offensive against the Domminion. In fact, Tullius laments having to recruit locals, of uncertian loyalty, instead of having real Legion regulars, simply because the Empore's real forces are elsewhere preparing for a real enemy.

 

That doesn't matter. They should have done so years ago, and that they still haven't (along with the actual circumstances surrounding the state of the Legion as well as the Dominion's army) shows that they are not worth supporting any longer.

 

And posturing doesn't really make for an effective war-time strategy when all evidence points to the exact opposite of what you're saying.

 

They are falling prey to the posturing of the Dominion, which is what they're good at. Think about it for a second, when the Dominion gets to insert itself into the near highest echelons of its enemies government, why wouldn't it spread terror amongst it, hampering any offensive capabilities by making it seem like an offensive would be wasted effort? That the Empire not only allowed but is also yet again falling for these Cloak and Dagger tactics that the Dominion excels at is just awful. Fact of the matter is, you can't fight the Dominion by sitting around in the dark, hoping you can use their tactics against them. It doesn't work like that. You have to face the Dominion down and you have to do it until they win nothing but lose everything. The Empire already gave up the chance to do this once, and I simply cannot trust them to actually do it the second time around (especially when they're currently missing their opportunity with every moment they try sitting in the dark)

 

And as for seeing the rest of the war, I have a feeling they're going to make it into an actual DLC. For one, we already know they wanted to do far far more with the Civil War storyline than they did, and two we can just look to the end of the Civil War questlines and, for me at least, it felt awfully like it wasn't even an actual end to the questline itself but more a low point in the overall story that wasn't presented in the game.

 

Unless Beth plans on drawing out the Empire/Dominion storyline across the next several games (with Skyrim being a teaser) I can't see them not doing it as a DLC. (While I do hold a lot of contempt for Beth, I doubt they'll actually abandon this storyline completely. They aren't that bad)

Edited November 23, 2012 by imperistan

[Inquart]

Using that logic, the Dunmer losing faith in Vivec also aided the Thalmor.

 

The Thalmor would surely somehow benefit from that if the Dominion was to actually invade Morrowind, which it never did. Morrowind is not part of the Empire anymore and is currently under Argonian occupation if I remember correctly, so the Thalmor probably have no real power there as they do in Skyrim via their Justiciars.

 

You really cannot use this kind of logic in this situation. Benefiting the Thalmor (and by extension weakening the Empire) simply does not automatically equal being wrong, even remotely so.

 

Why not? The Thalmor is the enemy and if Ulfric was doing something that gave that enemy an andvantage - and he was playing right into their hands, destabilizing Skyrim with his silly uprising just as the Thalmor intended when they set him free - how would you call him? Right? He might have had good intentions (although that's questionable at best), but it's the effect that matters and the effect was destabilization, weakening of the Empire and strengthening the Thalmor presence in the province.

 

Two, despite all the posturing on both sides, neither the Dominion nor the Empire could actually deal with another war with each other any time soon. Both armies are strained (Empire with its stretching borders, the Dominion with its severe shortage of troops) even 20 years after the war ended (And for the Dominion its worse, as they had to continue in a rather bloody war with Hammerfel for 5 years), are extremely weak (Dominion inherently so, the Legion from degradation), and neither side could really sustain the supply chains necessary for an invasion of their opponents holdings. The Empire would have not only secure Skyrim, but would also have to secure Hammerfel, which is severely unlikely to actually happen in order to realistically invade the Dominion and actually conquer it. And the Dominion simply does not have the man-power to drawn from. Elsweyr has shown it will not commit to full-on war (They were not present in the Great War), and Valenwood and Alinor alone could not realistically take Cyrodiil, Hammerfel, High Rock, AND Skyrim, and keep them at the same time unless they literally kill everyone that isn't with them, which would be far too unrealistic to actually happen. And even with Elsweyr's help it still couldn't happen.

 

All the Empire needs is time to rebuild while playing nice to the Dominion. Petty rebellions here or there certainly won't help it. And even though I agree about both the Empire and the Dominion being still exhausted since the Great War, sooner or later it will came to blows as Tamriel is simply too small for both of these states to coexist in any way. Sooner or later it will have to come to another war between them.

 

Which is total bunk. If the Dominion could have just walked right back in and retaken Cyrodiil they would have. They took far more than they initially thought they would when they first invaded and they actually did extremely well for the bulk of the time, and this was because of its cloak and dagger tactics that completely undermined the Legion before the invasion. It was only when the full brunt of several Legions of men was brought to bare against the occupation army in a direct ground battle that they were stopped, and they were stopped hard, given the fact that the entire occupation army was slaughtered.

 

Never again could the Dominion have actually done much against the Empire after this, as they simply would not be able to actually cope with the direct ground war they would be forced into. This is evident in Hammerfel where a single fraction of a Legion plus whatever militia could be rounded up stalemated the entirety of the Dominion. You might say that this was because of what happened in Cyrodiil, and while true, that misses the point.

 

IF, after the War of the Red Ring, the Dominion could not conquer Hammerfel (a single province with far less resources and manpower than the Empire) after 5 years, then they could not do ANYTHING to the Empire + Hammerfel. Period.

 

At best, the Dominion could have outright wasted Cyrodiil again. At best. But they still would have lost. All evidence shows this would have been the case back then, and not only that, back then it would have been fairly obvious as well. Hell, even if we want to presume that for whatever reason Mede couldn't see this, it still doesn't change the fact that after 3-4 years of Hammerfel stalemating the Dominion the Empire could and should have rescinded the WGC and resumed the war, at least until a peace can be had that doesn't completely cater to the Dominion's (The Defeated party) original demands.

 

All that, while true, is yet another reason to back up the Empire in hopes for it one day taking its revenge upon the Elves. By the way, do you really think that during that stalemate in Hammerfell the Empire should have attacked the Dominion? With what? The Legion, just like the Empire itself, was still largery in ruins then, wasn't it? As I said, rebuilding of the Empire's former strength takes time - a lot more than just a few years.

 

That doesn't matter. They should have done so years ago, and that they still haven't (along with the actual circumstances surrounding the state of the Legion as well as the Dominion's army) shows that they are not worth supporting any longer.

 

I agree that the Empire is far from perfect and all, but abandoning it wouldn't do any good to anyone. Ulfric's "independent Skyrim" is just wishful thinking and political slogan, nothing more. As one farmer on his way to Solitude once told me, "united Empire is better for everyone". And there's nothing the Thalmor fear more than united Empire.

 

And as for seeing the rest of the war, I have a feeling they're going to make it into an actual DLC. For one, we already know they wanted to do far far more with the Civil War storyline than they did, and two we can just look to the end of the Civil War questlines and, for me at least, it felt awfully like it wasn't even an actual end to the questline itself but more a low point in the overall story that wasn't presented in the game.

 

Unless Beth plans on drawing out the Empire/Dominion storyline across the next several games (with Skyrim being a teaser) I can't see them not doing it as a DLC. (While I do hold a lot of contempt for Beth, I doubt they'll actually abandon this storyline completely. They aren't that bad)

 

Agreed. I think that after the Civil War, they would know what to do in case of a bigger conflict like the Empire-Dominion war, if you know what I mean.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Inquart

[imperistan]

The Thalmor would surely somehow benefit from that if the Dominion was to actually invade Morrowind, which it never did. Morrowind is not part of the Empire anymore and is currently under Argonian occupation if I remember correctly, so the Thalmor probably have no real power there as they do in Skyrim via their Justiciars.

 

YEs, but what happened to Morrowind did weaken the Empire. Thats an entire province lost. And that was my point. This isn't so black and white that you can use the logic that if X weakens the Empire, and Benefits the Dominion, that X = Bad/Wrong/Whatever.

 

This issue isn't a simple matter of Good guys versus the evil elves, its a matter of whether or not the Empire is worth saving. Whether the Empire deserves to continue chugging along despite the fact that it doesn't even deserve to be called the "Empire" as we all like to call it. The Mede Occupation of the former Empire is not quite something I am willing to support, not only because of their track record but also because they simply are not the Empire that we all know and love. A stolen throne is no throne worth supporting. Its a matter of whether the Empire is in the best interests of Tamriel in this given climate, or whether it would be better to allow a new force to arise to cut a new swath through Tamriel and reforge the peace and unity that was known since Talos' time.

 

Denouncing something like the Rebellion simply on the basis that it benefits the Dominion is completely ignoring that there's more at stake then just some hyper-crazy elves trying to wipe out humanity. The entire future of Tamriel is in the balance, well beyond the Dominion issue and well beyond this Civil War.

 

All the Empire needs is time to rebuild while playing nice to the Dominion.

 

Except thats just playing right into their hands. You don't bide your time with an enemy that only grows stronger the longer you leave it alone, and especially so when you allow them free reign to run about your own holdings virtually uncontrolled. Any real force the Empire builds up to fight the Dominion is going to be seen a mile away.

 

Sooner or later it will have to come to another war between them.

 

OF course. The problem is when. The Stormcloaks would have their war now, which is really the right idea given how the Dominion likes to operate.

 

All that, while true, is yet another reason to back up the Empire in hopes for it one day taking its revenge upon the Elves

 

I'd rather not place my trust in hope, and especially not hope in the Empire.

 

By the way, do you really think that during that stalemate in Hammerfell the Empire should have attacked the Dominion? With what? The Legion, just like the Empire itself, was still largery in ruins then, wasn't it?

 

Things you have to realize:

 

1. Hammerfels forces alone are a force to be reckoned with, and can only be made better by what the Empire can provide, no matter how small.

 

2. The Empire has 2 untouched provinces to draw fresh troops from, plus the two that were affected by the war. Skyrim and High Rock. The Dominion has none, as it drew the bulk of its armies from its two provinces already and with what the Dominion was planning I doubt they could have really conscripted/recruited as many troops after the War of the Red Ring as the Empire could.

 

3. The Dominion didn't have to be outright defeated or even invaded at this time. They could have easily been beaten back into their own borders (which is essentially what happened after 5 years anyway, and Hammerfel did that by itself) and Mede would have been in a perfect position to, at the very least, demand unconditional peace. He was already in a position to do that back when he destroyed the army in Cyrodiil, and if he continued the war he would have ended up having that power again after it was time to stop it.

 

I for one would have gladly supported the continued existence of the Dominion, if only for as long as it takes to rebuild, reinforce, and prepare for the next eventual war. What I cannot support however is catering to all of their original demands (The Denial of which started this war btw) when they lost. TWICE.

 

I agree that the Empire is far from perfect and all, but abandoning it wouldn't do any good to anyone. Ulfric's "independent Skyrim" is just wishful thinking and political slogan, nothing more. As one farmer on his way to Solitude once told me, "united Empire is better for everyone". And there's nothing the Thalmor fear more than united Empire.

 

And yet they are wary at giving Ulfric too much support. That alone shows that an independent Skyrim is far and away from fancy. And one farmer's opinion, likely based on not knowing any better or different, doesn't really carry weight with me.