Lachdonin Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I should clarify that I have no problem with the simplification of gameplay elements as I am well aware it is Little Timmy that puts food on Todd Howard's table. I only request the option to play in a more hardcore style should I so choose. Want to use a preset class, quest markers, fast travel, and casually breeze through some dungeons after work or school? I am all for that and endorse the growth of the fan base. I am not asking for excel spreadsheets and having my nuts twisted in a vice levels of difficulty, that went the way of the dodo bird for a reason. What I am asking for is being able to play without the hand holding, if I want to get nitty gritty with my characters stats let me do so, if I want to explore and find things out as I go rather than being given an in game instruction manual and schedule then let me do so, if I want to ask around and do some detective work to find a resolution then at least give me the option. I know the point you are trying to make and I would be inclined to agree with you, just know that there are a lot more than 2000 of us and we are willing to accommodate the new comers. We only ask to be thrown a bone once and a while. You have though. The Perk system has the potential to solve all the issues, without having to bring back the cumbersome, outdated and irrelivent attributes of yester-year. With the perks, you can easily set up classes, with pre-set levels for the beginners, and the ability to disable 'auto leveling' as people become more comfortable with the system, without the need for arbitrary attributes which, come level 30ish, are all maxed out anyway. The bone has very much been thrown, though i find a lot of people are ignoring it entirely. It remains to be seen, of course, if Bethesda is aware of the potential the Perk system has, and is willing to put the thought into developing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAPALM13092 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I should clarify that I have no problem with the simplification of gameplay elements as I am well aware it is Little Timmy that puts food on Todd Howard's table. I only request the option to play in a more hardcore style should I so choose. Want to use a preset class, quest markers, fast travel, and casually breeze through some dungeons after work or school? I am all for that and endorse the growth of the fan base. I am not asking for excel spreadsheets and having my nuts twisted in a vice levels of difficulty, that went the way of the dodo bird for a reason. What I am asking for is being able to play without the hand holding, if I want to get nitty gritty with my characters stats let me do so, if I want to explore and find things out as I go rather than being given an in game instruction manual and schedule then let me do so, if I want to ask around and do some detective work to find a resolution then at least give me the option. I know the point you are trying to make and I would be inclined to agree with you, just know that there are a lot more than 2000 of us and we are willing to accommodate the new comers. We only ask to be thrown a bone once and a while. You have though. The Perk system has the potential to solve all the issues, without having to bring back the cumbersome, outdated and irrelivent attributes of yester-year. With the perks, you can easily set up classes, with pre-set levels for the beginners, and the ability to disable 'auto leveling' as people become more comfortable with the system, without the need for arbitrary attributes which, come level 30ish, are all maxed out anyway. The bone has very much been thrown, though i find a lot of people are ignoring it entirely. It remains to be seen, of course, if Bethesda is aware of the potential the Perk system has, and is willing to put the thought into developing it. I agree with you about the perk system. It was a fantastic addition that accommodated both styles of player. It is simple to understand yet allows complexity in character development. Even though it was more reminiscent of feats from D&D style games it was labeled as "perks". What other game has perks? Call of Duty does. Brilliant bit of marketing I must say. They add something old guard would like and label it as something that catches the new comers, "Bro, you see that new dragon slaying game? Pfft, that s*** is for nerds. No bro it has perks and s*** just like COD. No way, I wonder if it has commando pro or sitrep!". Boom, new with the old. That being said if you would claim the perk system alone was some harmonious marriage of new and old that appeased both players completely I would disagree. Nice touch and I commend them for it but I still feel as if more steps could have been taken. If I may go back for a moment and defend the idea of attributes. In implementation they have certainly left much to be desired but attempting to reiterate and improve a system would have been preferable to simply scraping it. The main element I feel it added to the game play experience was diversity that perks don't exhibit until much later in the game. At early levels everyone is a clean slate which is the core element of most role playing experiences. However in Skyrim that is taken to a level that diminishes the flavor different races can bring and the handful of situational racial abilities and the +5 "x" skill is no substitute in my opinion. Having a Nord or Orc feel brawnier than an Altmer or Bosmer, or a Khajiit feel more agile than an Imperial was a nice touch of that flavor attributes provided. In Skyrim every character feels like a carbon copy until you are a good portion into the game. There was a certain mystique to going against the grain and making a walking juggernaut out of a tiny Bosmer or a Arch Mage out of a 400lb Orc. I feel having a streamlined version of attributes that is less number crunchy for the common man in addition to perks would make for a richer experience. You would have easy to understand layers of game play mechanics that over time would add up to make for more diversity than any one system could on its own. I don't intend to make myself or players like me seem like victims because we certainly are not. We were still given a great game and I don't really hold any animosity towards Bethesda. I am simply stating that any idea or product has it's ups and downs and if you do not let a little bit of your cynic run free there is no hope for improvement through constructive criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) Again, i feel that the racial differances could be covered through the perk system (and sorry if i came off too hard in the beginning, as you can imagine a lot of people are not so conversational about this issue). The problem with the perk system right now is that each tree is linked to a skill set. If that association were removed, an Perks were arranged in self-contained categories such as "Combat", "Magicka", "Survival", "Craftsmanship" etc. then you could easily fit in a racial category, with either pre-set perks which diferentiate the races from the onset, or trees which allow you to explore the character of the race as you level. In the latter vein, imagine, using a leveling tree, varriations between the Khajit and and Bosmer (two stealth characterised races) and an Orc (a very NOT stealthy race) Bosmer - +10% sneak - +10% bow damage - 50% stamina drain while firing a bow - +50% bonus from eating meat - Green-Man's Blessing power (summon a leveled Spriggan once a day) Khajit - +10% sneak - -20% fall damage - +10% backstab damage - No negative effects from Moon Sugar, -50% negatives from Skooma - *some moon related ability* Orc - +10% 2 handed damage - +50 carry capacity (to allow for heavier armour) - +20% damage if below 50% health - *insert excelent idea here* - Malacath's Proven power (once per day, regenerate health X points, increase damage X%) Of course, to unlock the higher level perks, you would have to have the lower. By and large, i think the average citizen, regardless of races, would be roughly the same. Argonians may be more disease resistant, Imperials more personable, High Elves slightly more magic inclined, but it's by developing ones skills the true differances between the races come out. Thats why i would personally favor a grading perk-based differentation between them, rather than the old attribute differances. Edited November 25, 2012 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CredibleJoe Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 You know what I want, that I'm pretty sure none of the games have? A rival. I want a humanoid, in depth character to clash with on my adventure. To encounter him or her multiple times on my journey. I want our hate and respect for each other to escalate to poetic levels. He or she needs to be a challenge, the most challenging humanoid fight that we'll ever experience in game. I want the conclusion of the rivalry to be bittersweet. ...Yes, I am a fan of the pokemon games. But damnit, I feel so alone on this whole adventure. There are no NPCs in game that can match or challenge the power of the Dragonborn, or the Hero of Kvatch, or the Neravarine. The only things that come close to being a consistent challenge are Dragon Priests, mainly due to my main's vampirism and their favoritism of fireballs. I had to download a mod to make dragons a threat past level ten. I guess this could be summed up in a desire for more character development, and more challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luzburg Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I don't mind harder games. I play the Souls series if I feel like a game with no hand holding. Skyrim is just a laid back experience, even though I have SkyRe installed which does make the game quite difficult. Its not really the combat difficulty that bothers me its just pointless hassle like Morrowind. The levelling system and he dice rolling was just tedious. I do agree that quest directions are a lot more fun and immersive. I'm just sad that I had played the game to death before I found out about the expanded quest dialogue mod, its no use now when I know most locations by heart. I did clear Faldars Tooth for the first time ever yesterday, wow that is one cool hideout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relativelybest Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I also miss making a "happy" face during character creation. Yeah, it was kind of cheesy, but Skyrim could have added improved smiles to it's character creation, but instead removed the choice entirely. Everyone walks around skyrim looking like their living through a plague. I miss the general freedom of being able to shape your character's appearance, with multiple sliders for all sort of things like lenght of hair and the size of the eyes. We could still do that as late as Fallout 3, and I was genuinely hoping it would just get better. Instead we got much more limited character creation which ultimately feels more primitive to me than what we had in 2006. It doesn't even let you pick the color of your character's eyebrows, for goodness sake. (Now compare the chainsaw-juggling crazy level of options in the Aion character creator, which even lets you mess around with stuff like hight and proportions. And that is from a game that's only a couple of years younger than Oblivion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riprock Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 You have though. The Perk system has the potential to solve all the issues, without having to bring back the cumbersome, outdated and irrelivent attributes of yester-year. With the perks, you can easily set up classes, with pre-set levels for the beginners, and the ability to disable 'auto leveling' as people become more comfortable with the system, without the need for arbitrary attributes which, come level 30ish, are all maxed out anyway. The bone has very much been thrown, though i find a lot of people are ignoring it entirely. It remains to be seen, of course, if Bethesda is aware of the potential the Perk system has, and is willing to put the thought into developing it. The thing that throws the players is very simple: no guidelines. A template system that made the perks of any "class" show up in say, blue when you turn on the 'template layer' would have made that missing framework It is unfortunate that many players need to be- here it comes, sorry- led by the hand on things like this. After years of saying 'stop the hand-holding', when it arrived, a lot of players didn't like it The stat system is fine, but it's simply a mild twist on the same tired setup from the original Dungeons&Dragons. Ironically, that stat system was made up because the game didn't have a visual or audio component, and was turn based. I feel that the new system in Skyrim is a good first step into shedding that old way, but a hybrid needs to exist- some way to hear or see that my guy is stronger than others, or is more hardy. A way to have different dialogue options if I have high speechcraft for example- a dummy doesn't sway many people with intelligent discourse right? So as a mage with a lot of perks in my 'area' or 'class' maybe I have extra questions I can ask people, or maybe they tell me more info. If my warrior spends perks like that-fine, he gets those options too, but he has missed some combat perks by doing it Maybe there's just too many perk points available to the average level character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXGalenXx Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) I miss spell making and attributes the most. Followed by jumping and all the missing spell effects. Despite the misconception, there was nothing wrong with attributes, and they are certainly not antiquated. Skyrim is so stripped down without them. I think this is a serious issue that a lot of the so called 'Old Hands' fail to respect. The 2000 odd, crotchety old bastards who think RPG's are all about numbers and stats and min-maxing hold little more than contempt for the so called 'casual' RPG player. And when you get rid of their beloved spreadsheets (anyone remember the leveling algorithm from Daggerfall? I sure as hell do) despite said not having a purpose anymore, they get grumpy. Stats, in the vien of Elder Scrolls games, were outdated. They got left behind, and rightly so. Some people, however, can't deal with change particularly well... Look at conservative america. But i digress, some changes suck. The constant handholding on quests, for instance. It's a hell of a lot better than running around asking random villagers where Arnold Buckham lives, just so i can kill the bat in the attic, but they had something that worked with Oblivion, there was no need to change it. All in all, though, it's not the 2000 number crunching complainers who make sure we get a new Elder Scrolls every 6 years. It's the 2,000,000 casual gamers who want to come home after work or school and adventure a bit, slay some monsters or rob people blind. AD&D is still around for those other people, but by and large i agree with Bethesda's choice to make the game more user friendly.What are you talking about? Nothing was ever spreadsheety or number crunching. Theres nothing wrong with stats. Stats make an RPG actually. Casual players can go play a casual RPG - something the Elder Scrolls never was and never should be. You sort of sound like a PR bot that hasn't played any game other than Skyrim, repeating soundbites from Todd and Pete - since no Elder Scrolls game was like what you just described. Edited November 25, 2012 by xXGalenXx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riprock Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) What are you talking about? Nothing was every spreadsheety or number crunching. Theres nothing wrong with stats. Stats make an RPG actually. Casual players can go play a casual RPG - something the Elder Scrolls never was and never should be. You sort of sound like a PR bot that hasn't played any game other than Skyrim, repeating soundbites from Todd and Pete - since no Elder Scrolls game was like what you just described. Stats don't make an RPG. Playing a Role makes an RPG Stat management is a hallmark of pen and paper RPGs from the 1970s that translated well to PCs in the '80s due to their turn-based format and use. The stats themselves gave players a tangible feel for their character, because they could not see Thongrim the Strong leap over an Orc and bury his Flatchet +2 into the breast of a wild boar What was being described when you quoted was what I call the "SPG" (not Special Patrol Group): the "Stat Playing Game". Some players do that You don't play the SPG. You use the stats to play an RPG. That's great. But the stats are not required to play the role. How about this: let's say that in the two-handed perk tree, there's extra branches where you can multiply your damage. OK fine: So to go to the next modifier 'rank', how about needing to spend a perk on "Strength of a Hero" to go to rank two, "Strength of a Beast" to get to rank three, "Strength of an Ogre" to reach rank four, and "Strength of a Titan" for rank five? This is how a perk tree system can show the player 'stats'. All that we don't have is the 'description' for the rank level. Personally it is not hard for me to imagine that as my character swings heavy swords and axes, he slowly gains strength. But the game doesn't come out and tell me that; that's how I Play my Role Edited November 25, 2012 by Riprock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki180 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 The Waterfront I spent so many hours in the Waterfront! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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