What you miss from oblivion that skyrim doesn't have .

[xXGalenXx]

What are you talking about? Nothing was every spreadsheety or number crunching. Theres nothing wrong with stats. Stats make an RPG actually. Casual players can go play a casual RPG - something the Elder Scrolls never was and never should be. You sort of sound like a PR bot that hasn't played any game other than Skyrim, repeating soundbites from Todd and Pete - since no Elder Scrolls game was like what you just described.

 

 

Stats don't make an RPG. Playing a Role makes an RPG

 

Stat management is a hallmark of pen and paper RPGs from the 1970s that translated well to PCs in the '80s due to their turn-based format and use. The stats themselves gave players a tangible feel for their character, because they could not see Thongrim the Strong leap over an Orc and bury his Flatchet +2 into the breast of a wild boar

 

What was being described when you quoted was what I call the "SPG" (not Special Patrol Group): the "Stat Playing Game". Some players do that

 

You don't play the SPG. You use the stats to play an RPG. That's great. But the stats are not required to play the role.

 

How about this: let's say that in the two-handed perk tree, there's extra branches where you can multiply your damage. OK fine: So to go to the next modifier 'rank', how about needing to spend a perk on "Strength of a Hero" to go to rank two, "Strength of a Beast" to get to rank three, "Strength of an Ogre" to reach rank four, and "Strength of a Titan" for rank five?

 

This is how a perk tree system can show the player 'stats'. All that we don't have is the 'description' for the rank level. Personally it is not hard for my to imagine that as my character swings heavy swords and axes, he slowly gains strength. But the game doesn't come out and tell me that; that's how I Play my Role

No, stats make an RPG, hence why every cRPG ever made revolves around stats. Attributes, skills and perks is better than just perks and skills. There was nothing hard to understand about any of it, no number crunching etc. Don't know anybody that would want less options when it came to role playing.

Edited November 25, 2012 by xXGalenXx

[Riprock]

What are you talking about? Nothing was every spreadsheety or number crunching. Theres nothing wrong with stats. Stats make an RPG actually. Casual players can go play a casual RPG - something the Elder Scrolls never was and never should be. You sort of sound like a PR bot that hasn't played any game other than Skyrim, repeating soundbites from Todd and Pete - since no Elder Scrolls game was like what you just described.

 

 

Stats don't make an RPG. Playing a Role makes an RPG

 

Stat management is a hallmark of pen and paper RPGs from the 1970s that translated well to PCs in the '80s due to their turn-based format and use. The stats themselves gave players a tangible feel for their character, because they could not see Thongrim the Strong leap over an Orc and bury his Flatchet +2 into the breast of a wild boar

 

What was being described when you quoted was what I call the "SPG" (not Special Patrol Group): the "Stat Playing Game". Some players do that

 

You don't play the SPG. You use the stats to play an RPG. That's great. But the stats are not required to play the role.

 

How about this: let's say that in the two-handed perk tree, there's extra branches where you can multiply your damage. OK fine: So to go to the next modifier 'rank', how about needing to spend a perk on "Strength of a Hero" to go to rank two, "Strength of a Beast" to get to rank three, "Strength of an Ogre" to reach rank four, and "Strength of a Titan" for rank five?

 

This is how a perk tree system can show the player 'stats'. All that we don't have is the 'description' for the rank level. Personally it is not hard for my to imagine that as my character swings heavy swords and axes, he slowly gains strength. But the game doesn't come out and tell me that; that's how I Play my Role

No, stats make an RPG, hence why every cRPG ever made revolves around stats. Attributes, skills and perks is better than just perks and skills. There was nothing hard to understand about any of it, no number crunching etc. Don't know anybody that would want less options when it came to role playing.

 

That's very odd logic- you say that an RPG revolves around stats because that's how computer and console RPGs have always done it. All that supports is the fact that you define RPGs as stat based games. It's diifuclt to see your point of view, when you tell me Role Playing Games are about something besides playing a role, because you're seeing a means to the point of role playing as the end point.

 

RPG means "Role Playing Game". I realize you know this. Stat numbers are not required. What is required is some way to define your character so you can play that role. The fact that you prefer stats is great, that's your preference. But demonstrably stats are not the only way to do this. I already gave you an example using the perk tree system

Edited November 25, 2012 by Riprock

[xXGalenXx]

You do seem to have odd logic indeed - or perhaps none at all -, since without stats everything is the same and it is an action game and not an RPG. Name one RPG that didnt have stats. Exactly. Role playing is pretending to be something else, and acting. That is not technically a game, that is acting. To make a game you need rules and variation to the role playing. Stats. And it isn't just cRPGs really, it is any RPG. All need stats, or you're not really playing a game.

 

Attributes, skills and perks gives more variation and options and role play potential than just skills and perks.

Edited November 25, 2012 by xXGalenXx

[Riprock]

You do seem to have odd logic indeed, since without stats everything is the same and it is an action game and not an RPG. Name one RPG that didnt have stats. Exactly. Role playing is pretending to be something else, and acting. That sis not a game, that is acting. To make a game you need rules and variation. Stats.

 

 

Skyrim

 

It uses a perk tree system instead of strength, intelligence, etc. I have spent some effort into describing and suggesting similarities and differences in the two approach to RPG styles

 

You don't listen well, I think. I have already mentioned that you, personally define RPGs as stat-based games

 

You've also never really RPG'd then. A real RPG like D&D doesn't need stats. the one and only Real Rule is the Game Master makes the rules. If you've ever actually looked at the original rules, you'd know this, and if you'd ever actually played that game the right way, you would know that you didn't need dice or a stat sheet to play. You've left opinion and preference and started to tell me what's what. Sorry, no sale

Edited November 25, 2012 by Riprock

[xXGalenXx]

You do seem to have odd logic indeed, since without stats everything is the same and it is an action game and not an RPG. Name one RPG that didnt have stats. Exactly. Role playing is pretending to be something else, and acting. That sis not a game, that is acting. To make a game you need rules and variation. Stats.

 

 

Skyrim

 

It uses a perk tree system instead of strength, intelligence, etc

 

You don't listen well, I think. I have already mentioned that you, personally define RPGs as stat-based games

Which are stats. You do know what stats are, right? A perk that gives you X more of this or that is a stat. A skill level regulating perk requirement is a stat, etc. If there were no stats everybody would do the same damage to everything with every weapon and all enemies and NPCs and player characters would be the same. Like a linear action adventure game or FPS. You could argue any data is a stat, but no genre other than strategy focuses on the stat and the character skill over player skill more than RPGs. Hence why I said stats make an RPG.

 

The more stats - and sets of stats - the more diversity.

Edited November 25, 2012 by xXGalenXx

[Riprock]

Trying to talk down to me both won;t work, and won't make me say you're right while I'm wrong.

 

Some perks do have stats, in the form of ranks. Others just have an effect. I can build internal combustion engines well. That's not a 'stat' I have, it's a skill. Skyrim calls particulars in skills 'perks'.

 

You are trying to tell me that your "stats" are skill levels. It is commonly parlance that a character's "stats" are Strength, Intelligence, etc. Skills are different than stats.

[xXGalenXx]

Trying to talk down to me both won;t work, and won't make me say you're right while I'm wrong.

 

Some perks do have stats, in the form of ranks. Others just have an effect. I can build internal combustion engines well. That's not a 'stat' I have, it's a skill. Skyrim calls particulars in skills 'perks'.

 

You are trying to tell me that your "stats" are skill levels. It is commonly parlance that a character's "stats" are Strength, Intelligence, etc. Skills are different than stats.

Er, you already tried to talk down to me, saying I didnt listen. Well, obviously you dont understand. Understand what stats are. Name an RPG that doesnt have stats. I'll wait. You seem to think that only attributes are stats. It is all stats, based on numbers. Numerical variables into data=stats. Skills are numerical variables, perks add numerical variables, those are stats. What RPGs are made of. And your analogy doesn't work at all, since if you were trying to represent skill of building things in an RPG, it would be with stats. It is commonly known that having a 56 in a skill is a stat, it is commonly known that if you have perks that up your damage by a percent it is a stat. Attributes, skills, perks, all stats. It's rather obvious you dont know anything about role playing and dont RP, or DnD for that matter. Until you get that, there's no need for you to reply.

 

funny too, since that wasn't even my main point, just something anybody that knows anything about RPGs already knows. My point was that more variables and options makes a better RPG.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

Edited November 25, 2012 by xXGalenXx

[t55]

I don't feel that much has to be changed with the whole perk system, I really like complex systems but I don't need them because quests usually substitute for the time I would spend into customizing my character. Unfortunetely quests suck in skyrim.

In oblivion I felt like I was continously saving nirn from destruction, every guild quest ending was overly epic. FIghting the worm lord guy and doing the heist quest made you really fell like a superhero in disguise. But what really made the quests great is that while you did them you could look at your immersive UI and see the rank you had at the time and read all about what you were actually doing. Everything about them no matter how repetitive always had an element to it that made you feel "Well this is slightly different".

Now in skyrim everything is just go A, kill B, collect C = Thane of whiterun and crappy shield that you immediately sell. Nothing is special, everything has been brought to a level where quests don't blow your mind, merely show you what bethesda have done. The mages guild was scrapped so they could just add the insufficient winterhold guild, the dark brotherhood no longer follows those really scrict laws that made them what they were and thieves guild doesn't equate to much either.

It's like they purposefully dumbed everything down just work on it faster (I'm sure that's not the case but it is the impression I get).

I don't think the argument that people want a simple game is a great one either, if I come home from a long day of work I want a form of escapism I can only imagine the more immersive something is the more relaxed I will get from playing it.

None the less it's still a great game but I just wish it was a bit more complex to stimulate my mind a bit when playing it.

[Jitansgate]

Diablo 2 is a Good Example of RPG. Stats and Skill Tree.

 

http://diablo.jjscud.com/MirandaStats.jpg

[Grimoa]

And here I thought RPGs were about playing a character.