Balancing Magic

[MShoap13]

I've been messing around with potentially updating Balanced Magic by mysty. Currently, it has some structural issues etc. so it's really not even safe to use at this point.

 

While going through my process, I stumbled upon something a lot of you that are familiar with the original mod have already noticed. The Novice Perk for Destruction magic decreases Magicka costs and increases damage while every other perk increases both. At first glance this is both unintuitive and just plain clunky. After studying the numbers I understand why mysty implemented it in this manner (it was to keep the 2:1 magicka cost efficiency increase the Vanilla perk granted without making the damage scale too fast), but I was looking at alternate solutions to make it feel more coherent. Anyways, I thought I'd ask you guys which solution you liked best:

 

A) Cut the base cost of all Destruction skills in half. Then turn around and make the Novice Perk bump it back up to where mysty originally had it. The only drawbacks here are that, I'm limited to whole numbers with the base cost so there would be some rounding, and this makes it cheap and easy to cast weak Destruction spells even for non-mages.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2cxj5oh.jpg

B) Change the Novice Perk to cut the cost in half but keep the Damage the same. Lower the Apprentice perk to +75% Damage and scale it's Magicka usage accordingly. All Perks from Adept onwards are unchanged. I feel like the extra damage really early in the game isn't necessary, and by the time you need it, the perks quickly recover from this change. Still a little unintuitive though.

http://i50.tinypic.com/29et9n4.jpg

C) Cut the base cost to three quarters of Vanilla cost. Rework the cost scaling entirely so you become more efficient with your Magicka as you take higher Perks. Still limited to whole numbers and I play tested the first perk through Bleak Falls Barrow and it feels a touch Magicka hungry, but it's not bad.

http://i50.tinypic.com/1znwtpl.jpg

D) Do Nothing.

E) Insert your solution here!

 

I just thought I'd get some opinions before going full steam ahead. Any feedback is highly appreciated.

Edited December 6, 2012 by MShoap13

[MShoap13]

Nobody has an opinion? o_O

 

I've had time to go through all eight plugins contained in the mod and literally remake them to clean out the structural errors left by TESVSnip. :whistling:

 

The only thing left to do before I'm ready for my first release of a "cleaned" version of the original mod is make a Dawnguard version...

 

Come on! I need some opinions! :thumbsup:

[kryptopyr]

If I'm understanding you correctly, the existing novice increases efficiency by decreasing cost modifier (say 1=>0.75) and increases damage (say 1=>1.5) giving you the change in D:C of 1=>2. We use (and enjoy) this mod, and I don't think that the initial discontinuity is a problem. It may make sense to scale the D:C on an increasing basis with the perks, though I think that if you make that change, the ratio should increase more, not less, with each perk, as the greater cost of greater specialization should pay off (say 1->1.3->1.65->2.05->2.5). I don't have any real problem with it as it exists - mental justification is that the first real studies teach a more efficient process than the untrained user would have.

 

Also, if you are working with this, would you be able to combine it into one .esp with menu or options rather than many? Cutting down on the number of files in the load list is always a major plus.

[MShoap13]

If I'm understanding you correctly, the existing novice increases efficiency by decreasing cost modifier (say 1=>0.75) and increases damage (say 1=>1.5) giving you the change in D:C of 1=>2. We use (and enjoy) this mod, and I don't think that the initial discontinuity is a problem. It may make sense to scale the D:C on an increasing basis with the perks, though I think that if you make that change, the ratio should increase more, not less, with each perk, as the greater cost of greater specialization should pay off (say 1->1.3->1.65->2.05->2.5). I don't have any real problem with it as it exists - mental justification is that the first real studies teach a more efficient process than the untrained user would have.

 

Also, if you are working with this, would you be able to combine it into one .esp with menu or options rather than many? Cutting down on the number of files in the load list is always a major plus.

 

Noted. The big reason I currently have the scaled version jump so much in D:C and then taper off is due to how Magicka hungry you feel early to mid-game (levels 5-20ish). Once your at the Expert/Master perk you usually have at least some enchanted gear, etc. and Magicka becomes much less of a factor. Additionally, the D:C ratio can be a bit deceiving. The Magicka cost scaling I have set up for option C) is actually a linear increase so if going from Adept to Expert lets you cast 2 more Fireballs than before, then going from Expert to Master should also allow for 2 more Fireballs.

 

My first release is simply going to be a cleaned version of the mod with no changes whatsoever so there will always be a clean version of the original mod available.

 

As far as combining the .esp goes, I'm looking into solutions. Creating an Fomod and plugins for 3 different Magicka settings and 5 different plugins isn't really practical. That's a total number of 128 potential combinations! Currently, doing 3 "all-in-one" plugins and then having the option for modular install is what I'm leaning towards. I'll probably post or link to a TES5Edit merging guide as well.

Edited December 7, 2012 by MShoap13

[kryptopyr]

I think that sounds reasonable. I wouldn't worry about providing a bunch of different installation options. I think just having both combined and modular options would be great. I'm looking forward to the cleaned mod as well as seeing where you go from there.

[MShoap13]

My initial release of v1.31 is here.

 

There's still more bugs regarding descriptions and I've yet to implement an NMM installer package so it's manual only for the time being.

[Damius]

I personally say do nothing, yet. Just get it up and working and see how people respond to the current system and what criticism it draws, and work from there. I personally think the current system makes sense from a roleplay perspective; you go from virtually untrained where you clumsily burn off too much magicka for too little reward, to then understanding how to focus and channel that power more efficiently and effectively (novice) and from there its just learning to handle and channel more power at once (apprentice and upwards).

 

From a gameplay perspective i think it discourages people from just dabbling in destruction. if you want any reward out of it you need a degree of dedication to it. If you only take the novice perk it will only last so long before you can no longer do enough damage fast enough to be worth continuing with just that, and you either have to throw some perk points into destruction or accept that you are not really playing a magic user and go back to hitting enemies with pointy stabby things.

[panurgy]

I used the original Balanced Magic mod for a few hundred hours of gameplay (on master). The system looked good on paper, and felt right when playing, so my vote would to leave this part as it is. I think mysty's approach was practical, so be careful about concentrating too much on the elegance of the system on paper. IMO, the problems with Destruction were roughly 10% cost and 90% damage. I also don't like making magic easier for non-mages--just my personal opinion. I like the idea that being a successful mage/thief/fighter takes work (perks in this case) and requires trade-offs.

 

That being said, if you're willing to put the time into updating and improving the mod, you get to do what you think is best. ;) And I'm really excited to see this mod come back from the dead.