Tibet controversy

[billypnats]

seems like everyone has some sort of demonizing thoughts on China.

 

Well "human rights" issue aside, the Chinese standard of living has increased by folds since Deng's Open Door policy, with recent expedition to Tibet I believe that in time, Tibet's standard of living will increase dramatically as well. (Hopefull not on par with us cus then we would need like another 5 earth to feed all the population lol)

 

China is in a state of heavy industrialization (The resource consumption, steel for example is literally measured by kilotons per hour), if you look at what happened during industrial revolution in European countries its a lot worse.

 

People complain about how chinese workers are underpaid, but seriously if they got the wages Canadian workers have right now, a piece of gum would be like $100. Beside, the currency right now for a chinese sweat shop worker is enough to sustain daily needs, I've seen it myself. (hey if they want to be rich, tell their kids to get good education, probably why FOBs kids are so smart)

 

Tibet is undergoing a similar process that the other provinces have been through decades ago, but they'll catch up. Seriously, I do believe a lot of Tibetans and normal chinese citizens as well are causing too much mess (Burning teenage girls alive and with the protests? WTF?), the Chinese government have nothing to gain by destroying religion and ethnicity before the uprising, just like Falun Gong, what do they have to gain from banning the "beneficial pratcice" if it was really good for the chinese people? From what I heard, the chinese government banned the practice because got way in over their heads and started killing themselves.

 

All in All, I believe that Tibet is facing a dead end if they gain independence now

[Ethre]

China is in a state of heavy industrialization

And as such is also in a state of heavy pollution.

 

People complain about how chinese workers are underpaid

is enough to sustain daily needs

Everything is relative - The issue is defining an acceptable standard of living, and then determining if the workers meet it. Many people have problems deciding what an acceptable standard is, or apply their standards to inappropriate situations. Most would not say that simply "sustaining daily needs" is sufficient though.

 

the Chinese government have nothing to gain by destroying religion and ethnicity before the uprising

Unity.

[billypnats]

Polution is always necessary evil that must be enbraced in order to industrialize, right now the Chinese carbon emission are on par with the US.

 

By daily needs I meant food, shelter, safety, etc. The very basic needs in Maslow's pyramid of human needs. Because of our values and beliefs, we see the need for us and others to have rather high level technologies, this is not true for developing countries or undeveloped countries, they need APPROPRIATE technology instead. For example, a coffee farmer in Ethiopia does not need water conserving, deluxe toilets, instead, they need one of those (donno what its called but its basically a hole in the ground connected by a adequet sewage system). They don't need high level technologies for farming, instead, they need appropriate tools like man or animal powered plows, rakes, etc.

 

Yes the suppression of the Tibetans was necessary to achieve unity, but it was not before their opposition grew stronger. And suppression by force had to be done to ensure unity NOW that Tibetans are rebelling.

[jaysus]

standard of living has improved? ya maybe for the 2% of the populazion who make their money in slavery...

i really wouldnt call forced sterilizations and living in concentration camps a good standard of living and neither are forced lanour camps or where do youthink all that cheap chinese stuff comes from?

as to tibetans burning themselves, it still has to be prooven these were even tibetians and on the other hand thats comparable to the islamic freedom fighters choice of kamikaze attacks... suicidae attacks and plain suicide is always a last restort... effective but it needs alot to do so... and in most cases is justified (even tho id rather die fighting than blowing myself up)... same goes for falun

 

there alot wrong in china and noone can say its not as it obviously is... but pointing with the finger is definately not the way as our governments are in no way better

 

forced sterilization existed in the us till the 60ties and they still have concentration camps (all over the countyr not just quantanamo), they too use theft and extortion to gain power and are ruled by corrupt criminals (just an example i could say germany, france britain or wherever you come from)... in china its no different just cause they call themselves a communistic republic does not mean they do anything different... at least one can say they are honest about their goals and their methods unlike our places where were are presented with a fake freedom and liberty george orwell could not even dream of...

 

take it as it is... the world is screwed over and over and that can and will change only if all of us start living a rightous way of life, true and free, respectful and tolerant, using kants categorical imperative to judge their actions and definately not with force of weapons if it is supposed to prolong...

[billypnats]

Where have you heard about concentration camps..... Cus I've yet to see Western Societies demonizing the Chinese government.

 

As for forced sterilization, that was corruption within the health officials, happens everywhere.

 

Compare the standard of living:

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...ok/geos/ch.html

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...ok/geos/us.html

[Landsknecht]

Thanks for the reply, this thread would get boring with only one side.

 

A. First became a part of China in the 1200s - its 800 some odd years since.

B. Tibet was feudal and in many ways brutal - its the ruling elite who lost out, not the Tibetan people.

C. If you want to argue they're a unique ethnic group . . . then you should do the same for Manchuria and other regions. Tibet's no more different ethnically than many other groups who are also marginalized (for better or worse) in modern China

 

 

(A is in some ways weaker as it is argued both ways, but given the importance of history here, it gets the list).

 

Oh yeah, and there's the economic argument too - Tibet's got resources, but as land locked as they are, only close work with another nation (read, China) can allow these resources to be fully utilized.

 

A. The time argument is pretty interesting. It is true that Tibet was ruled by China, but I was under the impression that it was through puppet regimes and not occupation. Of course, the time argument does not work in all cases, such examples being Germany controlling only a small part of pre-Congress of Vienna Prussia, Russia and the loss of territory due to the end of the USSR, Kuwait not being part of Iraq (Saddam had a legitimate claim, but used illegitimate means, but that's for another thread).

B. I mentioned that point in an earlier thread as well! However, the Chinese government is worse. Also, it is easier for Tibetans to change their government in Lhasa than in Beijing.

C. China is a multiethnic country besides Tibet, as well as multi-religious even before Mao. Before nationalists took power, the change in dynasties represented a different ethnic group gaining power, but I'm rambling. I think most people who argue pro-Tibet are unaware of pre-WWII Chinese history, however, I think those people would agree that multiethnic societies need to practice tolerance of ethnic minorities.

 

D (economic argument). Resources, that is also the explanation of Chinese involvement in Darfur. It is hypocritical of the US to criticize China on this point, Cold War history alone. This is a very complex part of the whole issue considering. The resources are needed for industrialization, however, the ideal way to receive them is through trade. However, that is not what history has shown, with one group subjugating another group to steal their resources.

 

People complain about how chinese workers are underpaid

is enough to sustain daily needs

Everything is relative - The issue is defining an acceptable standard of living, and then determining if the workers meet it. Many people have problems deciding what an acceptable standard is, or apply their standards to inappropriate situations. Most would not say that simply "sustaining daily needs" is sufficient though.

 

I completely agree. The Chinese government is not forcing these peasants to work in factories. It is clear by what is happening that working in a factory under 1870s conditions is better than being a peasant farmer; that is not surprising judging by Western history.

 

the Chinese government have nothing to gain by destroying religion and ethnicity before the uprising

Unity.

 

A classical way of dealing with minorities, best shown in ancient times with one tribe annihilating another. However, this ancient tactic has become morally inexcusable in modern times considering how we remember the Ottoman treatment of Armenians, the Rwandan genocide, the American treatment of Native Americans, the Holocaust, and the Japanese occupation of China. This means that China has to make the choice whether to be an enlightened society or be a society of ignorance and tyranny, but by judging how the Chinese government is acting, it is likely that we might one day in the future talk about the "Tibetan Genocide."

 

(I apologize if answer these posts in this format is inconvenient, but you made some excellent points)

[billypnats]

I wouldn't call it a genocide or cultural genocide for the following reasons

1. Civilians are not targeted for questioning unless they are suspected of rebelling against the government

2. The entire Chinese populations are minority ethnic group. While the Han are about 90% of the population, other ethnic nations do have the right to self determine and sovereignty in some degree, for example, the creation of autonomous regions allows them to practice their religion. Dalai Lama (If that is his true intention) is worried that the rush of Chinese people may eventually assimilate the Tibetan population. but from what the Chinese government did to other ethnic groups, this remains untrue.

 

The Chinese government's interest is to use the resources to develop the entire nation (which includes Tibet province) for the good of the state, which means that Tibet will also be heavily developed. Other ethnicities (such as koreans like myself) seen my heritage alive and well and kicking, when I was living in China (in DaQing a major city like Calgay), my downstairs neighbour (yes I live in apartments =.=) was Catholic, attended the state church regularly, and they were not at all discriminated. Similarly, Buddhism was not discriminated either, in fact, it was promoted on television, monks were shown on TV spreading their faith (and also Kung Fu in Cheesy Chinese Kung Fu shows lol).

[jaysus]

han = 90% of the population? well if thats inside these factsheets which supposedly tell you that the standard of living has risen for the common people then the cia indeed needs a better intelligence...

 

do you wanna know of CCs in the us or china?

 

corrupt officials ordered people to be sterilized? lol whats that an excuse for? sure hitler was just a corrupt official aswell if you argument that way... where these officials put into forced labour camps where they would have to work under inacceptable conditions like constant poisoning due to lead? were they taken from their families in secret never to be heared of again? id like to know but i sincerely doubt it... if they were even guilty...

may i ask if youre originally from SK or NK?

 

apart from that who says that working under conditions like during the ind. revolution is better than being a humble farmer in a healthy environment? id say being forcedly moved into a satellite city and thus being depraved of ones base of life is quite equal to putting a shackle round their ankles... well actually thats what it is... what do them do if you resist your move? shoot em like NK refugees seeking shelter?

[Javalin]

I personally haven't been following this thread for a three reasons.

 

 

The Tibet Controversy is:

 

1. On the news everyday, and has been for the last 4 months

2. Its on the forums

3. Vandalous chavs in this country are spray painting "Free Tibet" everywhere. I haven't walked 500 yards from my house without seeing "Free Tibet" in places.

 

---

 

Yeh, I agree with the guy who said

 

the Chinese government have nothing to gain by destroying religion and ethnicity before the uprising

 

 

Wheres the gain in making Tibet a part of China?

 

China is the home country of about a 6th of the worlds population. Tibets landscapes are beautiful, and SHOULD BE left alone and not cluttered up by industry, like the rest of the world.

[jaysus]

well thats the point tibet has been part of "china" for a very long time... and everybody exorts nature so why should the chinese stand back? maybe cause they are so reasonable and nice in opposition to the rest of mankind?