Alignment choices and why

[UrgeNexus]

The Silver Hand operate like bandits, they kill and torture werewolves and regular people, the Silver Hand are scum, plain and simple. They don't consider the fact that being a werewolf doesn't automatically make you evil, it doesn't have make you a monster, the Companions are examples of this.

 

The Dawnguard are like that with vampires initially, but through working with the Dragonborn and Serana they seem to become slightly more accepting of the fact that some vampires are decent people. I don't see the Dawnguard refusing some people memberhsip as a bad thing, training some peasant with no experience or talent is a waste of time and resources when you have mercenaries and adventurers with actual combat experience you can recruit instead.

 

The Forsworn are crazed savages. They kill anyone they see on sight, quickly if they're lucky, but they often take their time when ending unwary travellers. The Forsworn are nothinf short of monsters, they may have had a just claim to the Reach once, but they gave that up when they started murdering and torturing innocent people.

[MidbossVyers]

The Silver Hand operate like bandits, they kill and torture werewolves and regular people, the Silver Hand are scum, plain and simple. They don't consider the fact that being a werewolf doesn't automatically make you evil, it doesn't have make you a monster, the Companions are examples of this.

 

The Dawnguard are like that with vampires initially, but through working with the Dragonborn and Serana they seem to become slightly more accepting of the fact that some vampires are decent people. I don't see the Dawnguard refusing some people memberhsip as a bad thing, training some peasant with no experience or talent is a waste of time and resources when you have mercenaries and adventurers with actual combat experience you can recruit instead.

 

The Forsworn are crazed savages. They kill anyone they see on sight, quickly if they're lucky, but they often take their time when ending unwary travellers. The Forsworn are nothinf short of monsters, they may have had a just claim to the Reach once, but they gave that up when they started murdering and torturing innocent people.

Well, the Forsworn and the Silver Hand may be like the Morag Tong in Dragonborn. While they may indeed be ruthless, a lot of it is the game mechanics. If they gave each small faction their own individual story and personality like back in Daggerfall, it would increase the game size greatly, which may cause more lag and crashing. For example, if you only played Skyrim, you would lump the Morag Tong with the Silver Hand and the Forsworn, but if you also played Morrowind, then you would know much more about them. I think, when judging the Forsworn, you should only focus on Madanach's tribe, as they are the only one that have a direct story to them rather than just random enemies in a quest. To me, Stormcloaks are rebel colonists (Would I compare Ulfric to one of the US founding fathers? Maybe, maybe not), the Empire are the British, and the Forsworn are Native Americans. While old-timey pioneer-story TV series aren't the most accurate of media, there have been series and movies where the British, portrayed as villains, allied themselves with Native Americans to fight the colonists. Note: While some TV series may portray people this way and that, I, personally, did not call any side good or evil. Had the American Revolutionaries been defeated, they would be remembered in history as filthy rebel scum.

Edited January 22, 2013 by MidbossVyers

[893kira]

The Silver Hand operate like bandits, they kill and torture werewolves and regular people, the Silver Hand are scum, plain and simple. They don't consider the fact that being a werewolf doesn't automatically make you evil, it doesn't have make you a monster, the Companions are examples of this.

 

The Dawnguard are like that with vampires initially, but through working with the Dragonborn and Serana they seem to become slightly more accepting of the fact that some vampires are decent people. I don't see the Dawnguard refusing some people memberhsip as a bad thing, training some peasant with no experience or talent is a waste of time and resources when you have mercenaries and adventurers with actual combat experience you can recruit instead.

 

The Forsworn are crazed savages. They kill anyone they see on sight, quickly if they're lucky, but they often take their time when ending unwary travellers. The Forsworn are nothinf short of monsters, they may have had a just claim to the Reach once, but they gave that up when they started murdering and torturing innocent people.

 

In Dawnguard, Why the Dragonborn cannot join them as a freaking vampire??? Compared to Silver Hands they accepted vampire in their league and have silver swords which is much effective than fighting the undead and werewolves. Also they have been fighting werewolves who are much bloodthirsty than the vampire. Also the werewolves they killed are mindless brute. Werewolves cannot controlled themselves except the Companion Circle and the Dragonborn. Torturing Bah! In Dawnguard their almost tried to tortured Serana before the Dragonborn came. Have you seen their old torturing device in Dawnguard.

 

In medieval times torturing is just a usual thing. Even religion use a freaking torture device.

 

Also Forsworn could have been expanded and can be used as a mercenary army of the Imperials or the Stormcloaks if some hero could persuade them. Totally wish some modders could create a mercenary mod that add forsworn scout and use forsworn scout for fast travel if you have disable the fast travel in the game. Seriously how could the Imperials knows Ulfric's movement if they don't have a guide. Allying with some tribes with the Forsworn could do a perfect job. Instead of relying with just one man the freaking Dragon Born who have not been living in Skyrim at all.

[AnimeOtaku102]

While I agree it was disappointing that you can't be a vampire that helps the Dawnguard (particularly when they finally learn to accept Serana), I'm not so sure about the Silver Hand and definitely not the Forsworn.

 

I think it would have been nice if the Silver Hand got more attention and fleshed out as a proper order rather than a renamed bandit faction with silver swords; it could have opened up alternate paths to complete the Companion quest line - something along the lines of being ambushed while on a job for the Companions, then depending on whether or not you accepted lycanthropy the quest can branch in several ways:

 

If you're "clean":

1) Assist the Silver Hand in assassinating the Companion leadership, assume the mantle of Harbinger (which now has a much more sinister meaning), and induct several named Silver Hand members into the Companions (rest of the Companions shouldn't suspect anything, because they don't know the inner circle are werewolves and won't suspect anything). Dragon hunting quests with Farkas and Vargas will be replaced with werewolf hunting quests, and Aela's totem-finding quests can will be replaced with totem-destroying quests.

2) If your speechcraft is high enough and you've gained Kodlak's trust (shouldn't be possible if you ignored Kodlak up to this point), you can convince the Silver Hand that the Harbinger has another way to solve the problem and try for a diplomatic solution. You'll wind up fighting Aela and Skjor (and whichever Companions they recruit), but you'll keep the twins (and their dragon hunting quest), pick up a few Silver Hand warriors (and their werewolf hunting quests), no totem quests, and replace Kodlak (who either steps down in penance for Aela and Skjor's deaths, or is killed in the fighting) as Harbinger.

3) Butcher the Silver Hand and the quest proceeds pretty much like how it originally goes, except you aren't a werewolf and at the end Aela decides to also take the Purity quest because you proved to her that the beast blood isn't needed. She would also change her totem-finding quests to totem-destroying quests.

 

If you're "tainted":

1) Butcher the Silver Hand and the quest proceeds exactly like original.

2) You can attempt a diplomatic solution like #2 in the "clean" scenario, except the Speechcraft hurdles should be higher and you wind up fighting Skjor, Aela, and the Silver Hand (in the obvious twist of betrayal). Kodlak dies from the fighting, Farkas and Vargas leave, and you're left to pick up the reins of the weakened and broken Companions. Hey, not every solution has to be a win situation, right?

 

The Forsworn, on the other hand, pretty much make it clear at every turn that they've gone completely off the deep end. They murder anyone who doesn't fly their flag (or furs, as it were), sabotage the worship of the Divines (when they kidnap the next Sybil of Dibella, which was clearly the intent given the profaned altar of Dibella nearby), and collude with hagravens for power. Unless the Empire promises independence to the Forsworn, there's no motivation for them to help the Legion, and unless you're bringing Ulfric's head as a present there's no way in hell they'll support the Stormcloaks. To make the Forsworn more amicable toward diplomacy wouldn't take just a bit of expansion on their faction, but an entire rewrite of their goals and motivations.

[MidbossVyers]

Why are we even talking about the Silver Hand? My opening post said the Silver-Bloods.

[893kira]

My Bad! About the Silver Bloods and SIlver Hands.

Seriously Silver Hands have great potential if Bethesda could expand them. Also doing Companion quest doesn't feel quite right. Your wiping a whole guild because they killed an old man, looking for weapon fragments and first debut as a Circle member.

[AnimeOtaku102]

Why are we even talking about the Silver Hand? My opening post said the Silver-Bloods.

True, unfortunately I think there's a tendency for topics on choices to go off a little on the lack of choices as well.

 

For Madanach vs. Thonar, I would've preferred being able to present Thonar and/or Nepos' nose as have the quest lead to a much satisfying conclusion of the pair lovingly share a noose for crimes against Markarth. Failing that, I tend to kill Madanach, then slit Thonar's throat since he's no longer essential after the quest.

 

Still get thanked by his brother though.

[UrgeNexus]

The Silver Hand operate like bandits, they kill and torture werewolves and regular people, the Silver Hand are scum, plain and simple. They don't consider the fact that being a werewolf doesn't automatically make you evil, it doesn't have make you a monster, the Companions are examples of this.

 

The Dawnguard are like that with vampires initially, but through working with the Dragonborn and Serana they seem to become slightly more accepting of the fact that some vampires are decent people. I don't see the Dawnguard refusing some people memberhsip as a bad thing, training some peasant with no experience or talent is a waste of time and resources when you have mercenaries and adventurers with actual combat experience you can recruit instead.

 

The Forsworn are crazed savages. They kill anyone they see on sight, quickly if they're lucky, but they often take their time when ending unwary travellers. The Forsworn are nothinf short of monsters, they may have had a just claim to the Reach once, but they gave that up when they started murdering and torturing innocent people.

 

In Dawnguard, Why the Dragonborn cannot join them as a freaking vampire??? Compared to Silver Hands they accepted vampire in their league and have silver swords which is much effective than fighting the undead and werewolves. Also they have been fighting werewolves who are much bloodthirsty than the vampire. Also the werewolves they killed are mindless brute. Werewolves cannot controlled themselves except the Companion Circle and the Dragonborn. Torturing Bah! In Dawnguard their almost tried to tortured Serana before the Dragonborn came. Have you seen their old torturing device in Dawnguard.

 

In medieval times torturing is just a usual thing. Even religion use a freaking torture device.

 

Also Forsworn could have been expanded and can be used as a mercenary army of the Imperials or the Stormcloaks if some hero could persuade them. Totally wish some modders could create a mercenary mod that add forsworn scout and use forsworn scout for fast travel if you have disable the fast travel in the game. Seriously how could the Imperials knows Ulfric's movement if they don't have a guide. Allying with some tribes with the Forsworn could do a perfect job. Instead of relying with just one man the freaking Dragon Born who have not been living in Skyrim at all.

Why would the Dawnguard do that? They are vampire hunters, Serana is a special case to put it lightly.

 

The Silver hand do not have vampires in their ranks, I assume you're referring to the ones that drop vampire dust. They are not vampires, they have the dust, it's a common alchemical ingredient that may have been taken from a vampire that particular Silver Hand killed. You can tell if someone is a vampire just by looking at them, the Silver Hand have no vampires in their ranks.

 

As for the torture, yeah it's common, that doesn't make it right. Also, there is a massive difference in torturing someone for information and for fun. Torturing a captive vampire may give you information leading to a lair, or information letting you save innocent people. Torturing some travelling merchant just for the hell of it accomplished nothing, it's simply sadism. I also don't remember saying the Dawnguard were ever entirely good, they're morally ambiguous, just like everything else in TES. They are arguably better than the Volkihar because their main duty is to protect people by killing Vampires, who for the most part see people as cattle and kill the indiscriminately. The Volkihar on the other hand do not benefit Skyrim in any way, they only seek to do harm and have no good reason for it.

 

The Forsworn have made it very clear that they are not interested in an alliance, the fact that they kill people wantonly is not simply a gameplay thing, you can see their victims around their camps. Just the other day I walked past what looked like a helpless farmer with his head on a grindstone, I shouldn't have to tell you that murdering some innocent traveller by hoding his face to a grindstone is absolutely monstrous. Nothing will make me change my stance on the Forsworn, they gave up their claim to the Reach when they started killing innocents.

 

Also, on the guide thing. Skyrim has roads, with signs. And maps, lots of maps. It's no harder to navigate than Cyrodiil or High Rock if you know where you are going, which the Imperials and Stormcloaks do. They have their own scouts, they have maps and seeing as they both recruit locals they likely have more than enough people familiar with the area. They don't need the Forsworn's help and the Forsworm would never give it anyway.

Edited January 24, 2013 by UrgeNexus

[893kira]

I will not make another Trollable unrelated to this thread like the Silver Hands but in my opinion Silver Hands have quite interesting background if Bethesda would expand their lore. They have silver swords quite promising than Dawnguard's Crossbow. Silver Hands just reminds me of a Witcher and their weapons are just quite effective fighting the undead.

 

For the Forsworn, Yes their are maps and signs in Skyrim but Stormcloaks have quite advantage and superior in terrain and location where they could hit Imperials hard enough to create a stalemate. I just cannot believe a Foreigner just come out of nowhere leading a victory in war for the Imperials if DragonBorn helps the Imperials. Yes Skyrim is just freaking fantasy, I totally freaking get it. Yes in our History their are some Foreign Commander that won a war for other countries but they use native and locals to help them win a War like the best terrain to attack, best terrain to supply your troops and best terrain to escape. Even in our Modern times they use native and local for their advantages.

 

Also most troops in Imperials are not quite native in Skyrim and some are new recruits. I am just saying here what if Bethesda expand them more like having Forsworn Follower to help you in your travel would be awesome like in Fallout New Vegas using different faction for your advantage. Sadly it much focus on freaking Dragons. Yes you got a Housecarl but not most of them are natives in Skyrim. Also I just get this idea from Interesting Npc mod seeing a Forsworn helping an Orc makes an Orc stronghold. It be cool you got a Forsworn scout to help you fast travel or something.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, Borkul the Orc canonically aligns himself with the Forsworn.