More Notes on Custom Soldier Skill/Perk Trees

[graaa]

Nice trees! (I suppose I'm starting to sound like a tree-hugger now). I think I might incorporate your squaddie and major ability placements in my testing. Otherwise I've been testing with some similar choices. The only difference probably being the ranks I put the abilities at. Lately I've been thinking to myself that I hate it when Colonels get awesome abilities that let them hog all the kills and EXP (most notoriously the vanilla Sniper, which gets double-tap or in the zone) so I put those powerful perks at captain and major to give me the satisfaction of knowing SOMEONE is getting exp out of those kills. I've been liking that a lot and I've been saving the colonel perks for non-kill related stuff maybe defence or very minor offence perks to make them just a bit more powerful. Just a personal preference really.

 

On a side note does anyone here think opportunist applies to suppression reaction shots? I honestly have no idea how to test/figure this out. My gut says no it doesn't but then again...

Edited March 3, 2013 by graaa

[SeraphicLaw]

Nice trees! (I suppose I'm starting to sound like a tree-hugger now). I think I might incorporate your squaddie and major ability placements in my testing. Otherwise I've been testing with some similar choices. The only difference probably being the ranks I put the abilities at. Lately I've been thinking to myself that I hate it when Colonels get awesome abilities that let them hog all the kills and EXP (most notoriously the vanilla Sniper, which gets double-tap or in the zone) so I put those powerful perks at captain and major to give me the satisfaction of knowing SOMEONE is getting exp out of those kills. I've been liking that a lot and I've been saving the colonel perks for non-kill related stuff maybe defence or very minor offence perks to make them just a bit more powerful. Just a personal preference really.

 

On a side note does anyone here think opportunist applies to suppression reaction shots? I honestly have no idea how to test/figure this out. My gut says no it doesn't but then again...

I'd like to think it does; suppression reaction shots follow the same mechanic if I am not mistaken, they are simply 'locked' to reacting to the target they are suppressing - and units with 'covering fire' would have to contend with the targets' cover bonuses (though I'm not sure if they receive the usual reaction negation on top of this - if they do, Id be amazed if any covering fire shot ever hit).

[anUser]

Since there are so many interesting ideas here I thought I could share my skills and weapons set up too.

 

I'm currently playing with a setup where rifles and pistols have long range aim penalty as well as shotguns, whereas snipers and machineguns don't have neither close range bonus or long range penalty. Moreover, I also gave the eWP_Assault property to alien weapons, so now they also have both close range bonus and long range penalty. Only this simple detail changes the game dramatically into a more tactical fashion.

 

As for the abilities I didn't like it the Heavy class, I wanted a pure Machine Gunner and a Demolition expert to be two completely different things, as they serve completely different purpouses, so I moved the machineguns to Support class, and gave Heavy only rifle, but also gave the eWP_Heavy property to rifles and pistols (a weapon with the heavy property have only 3 rounds, whereas other have 4, before ammo conservation), so now rifles and pistols reload more often than machineguns. And, as there's no support, the heavy class became a demolition man and a tools-man, and the sniper became paramedic as well.

 

Here's the skills list I'm currently playing with. I've tried to make it so the first choice is the aggressive, pro-active one, while the second is the defensive, reactive one:

 

Sniper / Medic (Sniper Class)
1 Snap Shot 10
2 Head Shot 02 Covering fire 2F
3 Gunslinger 5f Field Medic 30
4 Aggression 20 Savior 37
5 Bring 'Em On 27 Opportunist 0A
6 Damn Good Ground 0F
7 Double Tap 0D Sentinel 36

 

Demolition (Heavy Class)
1 Fire Rocket 12
2 Grenadier 18 Smoke Grenade 2C
3 Shredder Rocket 16 Field Medic 30
4 Executioner 0B Smoke & Mirrors 5C
5 Danger Zone 19 Rifle Suppression 31
6 Extra Conditioning 1B
7 Bullet Swarm 1A Rocketeer 5d

 

Scout / Front-Line Soldier / Hunter (Assault Class)
1 Run & Gun 06
2 Close and Personal 22 Tactical Sense 21
3 Sprinter 1F Lightning Reflexes 23
4 Rapid Fire 24 Holo-Targeting 13
5 Killer Instinct 29 Low Profile 05
6 Close Combat spec 28
7 Aggression 20 Will to Survive 11

Machine Gunner (Support Class)
1 Suppression 15
2 Rapid Fire 24 Rapid Reaction 17
3 Mayhem 5E Covering Fire 2F
4 Snap Shot* 10 Opportunist 0A
5 HEAT Ammo 5B Holo-Targeting 13
6 Danger Zone 19
7 In the Zone 0E Resilience 2B

* Heavy Laser and Heavy Plasma (but not LMG) require Snap-shot to move and fire.

LMG gets -10 aim, sniper +5 aim, shotgun -5 aim

laser weapons, +5 aim, exception heavy laser +0 aim, but maybe snapshot penalty

all laser weapons -10 aim, except pistol and light rifle (-5).

 

 

Anyway, in the end choosing which skill should better fit which slot is a matter of taste, but for those who enjoy a hard game I think the key is trying to make each choice as hard as possible. Now that I've been playing for a while with this setup I realize I make my choices too fast, so maybe I should pair those I choose without hesitation and those I discard, respectively.

 

I hope I'd brought some fresh ideas for your modded game.

 

ANusER

[SeraphicLaw]

I like your thoughts on the Heavy and Support class trading weapons and have pondered their overlaps a bit myself while modding - I'm now testing the possibility of unlocking the assault rifle to all classes to give them some tactical options as well as locking the light plasma rifles to the support class only (giving them a 'unique' weapon, even if it is only a single late-game option)... but I'm not really sold on it; I do believe the key point of the Support class is to provide close-range support in the form of suppression, medical care and smoke (I took this farther with my build by giving them battle scanners and holo-targetting as well) so giving a class with a 'large' gun medical duties just seems wrong to me. It just seems like you've shucked the medical stuff to a class that already had a lot going on without needing to get up and go to the front to put bandages on the Assault troops...

 

I have been playing with the LMG itself a little bit, however. I've also given the entire line of LMG's an accuracy penalty (but balanced it by adding the points back to the class as they level - idea here was to put the penalty where it belonged since the weapon is innacurate, not the trooper and give them a decent chance when using assault rifles) and I am toying with giving them a suppression bonus and a small AOE (50; not enough to hit anything but the nearby cover, have to test it) for the plasma variant as I am also a Warhammer 40,000 player and it just seems wrong to have a plasma cannon that isn't doing AOE damage - if I find that I am happy with this I may give the entire line of LMGs an AOE damage effect [radius based on the weapon type] and require that the user 'stand still' for the turn to fire the thing to change the mechanics of the weapon a bit (and hopefully get a bit more pistol use out of the game). I also raised the damage on all LMG variants by a single point. [Tangent: I recall seeing someone mention that the aliens don't actually use the 'separate' versions of any given weapon - can anyone confirm this?]

[Yzaxtol]

allowing Heavyies to use the rifle will decrease the ammo count for all rifles, for snipers to use the rifle you actually have to remove the rifle property which then stops rifle supression from working, the class and weapon system is a mess in this game.

[anUser]

allowing Heavyies to use the rifle will decrease the ammo count for all rifles

 

That's the point, giving each weapon the eWP_Heavy property except machineguns, which now belong to Support, so now rifles, pistols and shotguns allow for 3 shots while non-heavy weapons (not tagged with eWP_Heavy, ie machineguns and snipers) allow for 4 shots.

 

 

 

for snipers to use the rifle you actually have to remove the rifle property which then stops rifle supression from working, the class and weapon system is a mess in this game.

 

Nope, you just need to give the weapon the eWP_Sniper property. The eWP_Rifle property seems only to make the weapon available to Assault and Support class, and make it unavailable to heavy in case it also has the eWP_Heavy property, but in my experience that's unrelated to suppression.

 

but yeah I agree the weapon system it's a mess, each property seems to have more than one effect and balancing them isn't easy.

[SeraphicLaw]

I hadn't realized giving a weapon the heavy property would effect the ammo count. That is a bit annoying, but I suppose I can live with the reduced capacity; in all honesty, when you get the ammo upgrade it pretty much removes the mechanic from the game for all intents and purposes, unless youre spending far too long taking pot shots instead of trying to flank.

[EDIT]: This board has some serious bug in it's quoting and editting systems.

 

[EDIT]: There is a small sort of workaround for giving the sniper class access to Assault Rifles, in a way - rifle suppression isn't really any different from the heavy's standard suppression ability as far as I know... so couldnt you just replace the ability in their skill tree? I think in my case I would differentiate the Heavy class being better at suppression by adding a small bonus to suppression to the weapon itself. I'm considering dropping the Sniper class' massive aim progression and giving the sniper rifles an accuracy boost so that they don't just get used as 'super-accurate' assault troops.

Edited March 4, 2013 by SeraphicLaw

[anUser]

I've found the ammo capacity to be aquite major factor right at the beginning, only 3 shots before reloading when you're playing with 4 soldiers and the AI has spawned 6 sectoids may be harsh. But for me the biggest difference is in the LMG, without the Heavy property and the suppression ability being the first one, they can now suppress twice in a row, or more likely they can shoot for 3 turns and on the 4th keep watch while squadmates reload.

 

I've to admit I never liked squadsight nor the fact of having a Sniper over a Sharpshooter. The difference is slim, but conceptually significative. Snipers camp on the hills, sharpshooters stand a few meters behind theassaulting forces. So I've toyed as well with the idea of giving the sniper class a rifle, but I cannot make myself clear on this, cause whenever it's a choice (rifle or sniper) I always pick the sniper, and having both available (by placing the sniper on the pistol slot) seems abusive, so in the end it feels that gunslinger is the answer.

 

Btw, no workaround needed, if you want your sniper to use an assault rifle just give the weapon the eWP_Sniper property, but mind now that this weapon will use the SNIPER_AIM_CLIMB setting (too, I think they all stack). Nothing to worry about if you set it to 0 though.

[Yzaxtol]

have you tried using a sniper ability with the rifle? crazy animations are crazy

[SeraphicLaw]

The ammo capacity thing bothered me after testing; it wasn't that I disliked the reloading (I often reload before needing to frequently anyway, as part of my general strategy includes pairing off my units so that two will be flanking or firing while two pin my target down with overwatch) but that I realized there isn't really a huge difference between the LMG line over the Assault Rifle line beyond the soldier using them having vastly different values for accuracy, so being able to change them out was fairly irrelevant. After pondering this matter some, I set about 'balancing' all of my classes, bringing their accuracy skill more in line (Assault and Support will gain 20 by Col, with Heavy going up 15 and Sniper 25) and pushing the accuracy modifiers where they should have been initially: the weapons. LMG's have accuracy penalties (but suppression bonuses and slightly higher damage) and Sniper Rifles provide increased accuracy. Laser weapons have 10 more accuracy than the standard variants, while plasma variants have 10 more critical chance. I also bumped all pistols up a single point for damage.

I kept the assault rifle on the Sniper, however (adding the Sniper property didn't seem to work, so I used my workaround - not sure if Suppression was designed to work with Rifles, though - I'll have to test) with the minor buff to pistols, along with Gunslinger and Foundry upgrades I think my Snipers may find their pistols a strong option should they eschew Snap Shot and still need to move. Still, the Assault Rifles give them a decent option for their early career.