Skyrim Holds Boundaries

[AnimeOtaku102]

In the real world, boundaries are made where there is some kind of natural object that clearly separates one place from another - a river, a lake, a mountain range, a canyon, for example. Or at least a straight line going North/South or East/West. So what are the boundaries for the holds of Skyrim based on? They seem arbitrary and impossible to apply or enforce, just drawn onto a map randomly. I'd like to be wrong about that so if you can show me that I misunderstand, please do. Thanks.

I don't think all of it is random. Looking at the map now I can see that:

 

Solitude's eastern/southeastern border is defined by the coast and rivers, while its southern border is defined by where their hills end and the mountains begin.

Markarth's northern border is covered, northeastern border is defined by a river, and southeastern border is also defined by where the mountains end, only its eastern border that seems to stretch across empty plains is questionable, but it happens to be almost parallel with the road that runs through Rorikstead.

Falkreath's northern border doesn't seem to make sense, as it cuts through roads, rivers, and mountain ranges like a drunk Paul Bunyan. At least its northwest and eastern borders have geographical features.

Riften's western and northwestern borders are defined by mountain ranges, and its northern border seems a bit arbitrary until you note that it runs east-west through Mistwatch (presumably at one point in history the Jarls of Riften and Windhelm sat down and went "Everything past this fort is mine, you milkdrinker.")

Morthal's northwest and western borders are already covered, the eastern border appears to be defined by a cliff and mountain range, which leaves the oddly straight southern border that doesn't really seem to have a keep or anything to define it. It does happen to run through Talking Stone Camp and Hamvir's Rest, but that seems a bit arbitrary.

Dawnstar's western border is covered, the snaking eastern border seems to run along where the mountains start, while the southern border is half where the mountains end and half covered by Whitewatch Tower.

Winterhold's borders are mostly covered except for the southeast border that doesn't seem to make any sense.

 

So I would say the only borders that don't make sense are the borders between Windhelm and Winterhold, Windhelm and Dawnstar, Windhelm and Whiterun, Morthal and Whiterun, and Falkreath and Whiterun.

[plunket]

This reads like an answer I can work with. Which map are you looking at? I can't find a good one that shows detailed topography and clear hold borders. The closest I've seen either distort things or are too cluttered to be of use (imho), or both. Edited February 4, 2013 by plunket

[AnimeOtaku102]

Well, I was just using this map over at wikia, which is pretty cluttered, but it's large enough that you can see the roads and borders clearly enough between all the location markers.

[plunket]

Oh. I thought you had one that showed the topography also. Thank you though, I will print what you wrote and look at the in-game map.

[AnimeOtaku102]

Oh. I thought you had one that showed the topography also. Thank you though, I will print what you wrote and look at the in-game map.

Ah, no, sorry. I figured that one was accurate enough, it shows all the markers at the right places and is accurate enough with where the mountains and bodies of water are. Guards will pretty much be using the same kind of map to help identify their territory (also having stuff pointed out the them by senior guards during patrols), so I don't think additional details would be necessary to justify most of the borders.

[Lachdonin]

I'm sorry if you found my comment rude, but your initial question showd a marked lack of understanding how borders work. They are political structures, not geographic, and are based more on spheres of influance than "Oh, this river makes a nice line, lets put the border here". The only impact grography has on borders is it determines how easy it is for opposing parties to exert their influance (usually through force) over your territories. A mountain range makes it harder to invade, for powers on both sides, which is why borders tend to butt against mountains. The same can be said for rivers.

 

In Skyrim, we are shown, at most, two to three towns in each hold, when we know from true-scaled games there should be dozens int he same area. Rorrikstead, for instance, would probably be a bustling town of a few hundred, surrounded by outlieing hamlets. The same can be said for Dragons Bridge. Stuff like this proves the games scale is not meant to be an accurate representation of an in-universe perspective, while at the same time the Hold-Map IS based on in-universe information.

 

The impact and reasoning behind the borders, again, is POLITICAL, something which doesn't translate well into the game (at least not how it was implemented). The villages, hamlets and forts along the border of, say, Whiterun and Morthal, owe alegience to one of the two Jarls. They know whose land their on, the soldiers of the respective Hold know who controls what fort and village, and everyone knows where their taxes go when they pay. Influance on borders can come from conflict between Holds, ancestrial land-holdings, decrees from the High King or the Empire, or negotiations between Jarls. In the case of the first and last, geographic features can make convienient boundries, but it's simplistic and unrealistic to think that they are the only influance behind borders.

[AnimeOtaku102]

I'm sorry if you found my comment rude, but your initial question showd a marked lack of understanding how borders work. They are political structures, not geographic, and are based more on spheres of influance than "Oh, this river makes a nice line, lets put the border here". The only impact grography has on borders is it determines how easy it is for opposing parties to exert their influance (usually through force) over your territories. A mountain range makes it harder to invade, for powers on both sides, which is why borders tend to butt against mountains. The same can be said for rivers. [...]

I think the issue is that while borders are political constructs, people tend to use visual aids to help define them, which are typically geographical features for the reasons you mentioned or man-made features (a wall, a road, a fort, etc.). Some of the borders, particularly some of the ones around Windhelm and Whiterun, appear to lack these distinctive features and do seem somewhat arbitrary.

[plunket]

Lachdonin, you are not being helpful, you are simply being defensive - and still rude actually.

[jase180]

Lachdonin, you are not being helpful, you are simply being defensive - and still rude actually.

 

Its no even close to rude. it exactly right on how borders are drawn. Since before the Roman Empire this has been the case. Europe, Asia, pretty much anywhere Alexander went, this was how it was done.

 

I don't think rude means what you think it does :/

 

rude

/ro͞od/

Adjective

 

Offensively impolite or ill-mannered

Synonyms

rough - coarse - crude - impolite - uncivil

[plunket]

Reread my question; in it I humbly asked for an explanation and hoped to have misunderstood. You don't read condescension in "get used to it" or "marked lack of understanding?" I do, and I call it rude.

 

I think I understand maps as well as anyone else in the discussion so far. The question is not whether the boundaries are political, or evolved from locations over which a Jarl has influence. I agree that there needs must be a disparity re: scale/game universe but the fact is that Skyrim is divided into nine holds with definite lines between, vs. having ambiguous patches of "no man's land" between. This would suggest that the lines have an agreed-upon location that must be at least mostly indisputable. The only way to have a border and agree upon it is if you can describe it (e.g. from the south side of x mountain to the north of y, or from the outskirts of town b to whatever - things anyone can see and understand). Maps do start out with blurry and disputed political regions, but Skyrim's holds are indisputable. They are defined and rigidly enforced. The most interesting suggestions so far have come from Anime_Otaku102 but I have not had time to check them out.