Fahrenheit 9/11...

[Darnoc]

And again you are wrong. If you would acctually concern yourself with the material, you would know this. And something I noticed: You seem to switch reasons and arguments all the time, so what exactly do you want to tell?

 

Muslim extremists do exist since the 20th century. It is a phenomena from this century and didn't exist before.

 

During the height of muslim power, ca. 900 - 1200 AC, Christians and Jews lived in the Khalifat, the muslim empire. The muslims were far more tolerant against different religions than the Christians during the middle ages. Christians persecuted and killed Jews and Muslims living in Europe, they even went to the Near east and conquered parts of the muslimic empire during the crusades. In the conquered lands they killed Jews and Muslims.

 

In the muslimic regions, Christian and Jews (mostly Jews) were treated as second class people, but were allowed to live safely. In Europe, they were just murdered, massacred.

 

Why do the muslim hate our western civilization? Because we destroyed their civilization and culture, we tried to conquer and colonize them during the time of Imperialism, we tried to put our way of life on them by using force. We just tried to force them to live like we thought someone should live. When their governments didn't suit us, we exchanged them, when their economic decisions didn't suit us, we just took over their economy and when their way of live didn't suit us, we forced our believes and lifestyles on them. Without success in most parts. Muslimic extrism is only a reaction towards this. We were the ones who started it.

 

Concerning Switzerland, I never talked about having power. I only talked about that we have more rights, liberty and freedom than you ever had. And that is a fact you cannot deny. I said that you do not have the right to call your country the land of the free when you act the way you do. And this is also a fact.

 

EDIT:

 

Did you notice that I am bringing facts to support my arguments, while you don't? So please stop stating nonsense without actual proof!

[Malchik]

I have to agree with Darnoc that some of your posting, tyjet3, seems based more on what you have heard than factual information. For instance, please post the specific part of the Q'ran that insists non-muslims should be killed. It is rare for people with entrenched views to be persuaded by the arguments of others. But it certainly helps to be logical and factual and to refer to your sources if you want to woo the undecided.

 

All Empires eventually collapse because they become unworkable. The US empire will ultimately fail in the same way. Often before such a collapse the government becomes more extreme and fundamental (and you can have fundamental capitalists as easily as anything else). Perhaps the US has just reached this point?

 

Unfortunately, as most societies have discovered, guerilla warfare tends to be far more effective than straightforward military intervention. The more the US intervenes, the more guerilla activity they will be facing. In time (with increasing loss of life and the return to conscription) it will cause the US populace to become very unhappy and the government attitude will be forced to change. I don't know how long it will take but it could be a lot faster than anyone imagines (or a lot slower for that matter).

 

 

China has the potential to become far more powerful than the US can ever hope to be. And, barring it's collapse, that will happen in time, too!

[Darnoc]

Yes, I agree with you there, Malchik, China is the rising star of the 21st century and at the end of this century, China will be the most powerful nation ever to have existed on this planet. It is logical, with this huge population they not only have a greater working mass, but also a greater brain-mass, meaning that they have more highly intelligent and genious humans than everyone else. When they use this potential correctly, they could advance faster and further in technology than the West has in the 20th century.

 

And tyjet: I needed three hours for the giant post on the last side. This is only part of the evidence I can bring forth to support my arguments, there are tons of books concerning this matter which all prove my point of view and not yours. Those books were written by experts of history or the situation of these regions, I can recommend especially two of them, both from German origins:

 

Gerhard Konzelmann, former journalist in Near East, expert on Near East and Islam

 

Peter Scholl-Latour, freelance journalist working everywhere in the world, always writing from his own experiences which makes it a lot more interesting to read his books than dry history-analysis

[surian]

You are looking at the history and thinking everyone who is muslims agrees... well, you are wrong. The whole reason the muslims hate the US is because we are christian!!

 

Tyjet, I'm about to just give up on you. You talk without thinking and you never back up your points with any real facts. The Muslims don't hate America because we're christian, the governments of these countries may use that as an ascuse (much like Bush claims liberating Iraq as an accuse for invading) but even then, they don't use that as the only reason, neither to they believe it.

 

You've been given so many reasons in this thread for why the Muslim world has every reason to despise our country and yet you still think that it's because we're Christian even after you yourself admitted that our country is NOT 100% christian. If the Muslims were only after us because we were Christian don't you think that they would only be attacking churches and killing our clergy? How many Muslim attacks on churches or priests have you seen? You do, however, see many attacks on US commercial interests and political points such as the World Trade Center and the Pentegon, as well as military targets such as the US Cole. So you tell me, given their targets, what is the motivation for their attacks?

 

Please Tyjet, think before you post.

[Eiade]

The whole reason the muslims hate the US is because we are christian!!

 

That is not the main reason for Islamic attacks and their 'holy war.' Most all of Europe is christian, just as much as the US. Why didn't they attack them? They're much closer. Why travel half-way around the world to get to the US? Because we've always shown support of their enemies, and we're getting involved in their affairs when we really don't need to.

[tyjet3]

Most all of Europe is christian, just as much as the US. Why didn't they attack them?

 

I already answered this... We are powerful in money, politics, freedoms, ect...

[Darnoc]

I already answered this... We are powerful in money, politics, freedoms, ect...

 

Interestingly, on 11/9 the EU was already economically more powerful than the USA. This has increased even more, then already the EU was the economically most powerful force on earth, now with the addition of the nations of eastern europe, it is even bigger. So, why did the terrorists not attack several targets in the EU?

[Eiade]

QUOTE 

Most all of Europe is christian, just as much as the US. Why didn't they attack them?

 

 

 

I already answered this... We are powerful in money, politics, freedoms, ect...

 

So... You think they're jealous?? Give some facts to back that up.

[UberBender]

Going and asking them why they hate us would probly be easier than debating about this for a year or two.

[tyjet3]

Going and asking them why they hate us would probly be easier than debating about this for a year or two.

 

Very true. No one here is Islamic or Muslim, so no one here can truthfully answer the question. All we have given out (including myself) are ideas of why they might hate the US.