Fahrenheit 9/11...

[UberBender]

Yeah, Mr. Heston is a good man and did not deserve all the crap that Mike fed him.

[tyjet3]

Would anyone watch his films when they were absolutely true but just dull documentary films?

 

Wow... You know documentaries ARE truth... Moore idea of a documentary is lies tied in to truth, therefore his documentaries (which are taken seriously by several people) are feeding lies to nieve people...

 

You watch documentaries to learn, not to be intertained...

[UberBender]

You watch documentaries to learn, not to be intertained...

And documentories are often shown on televison, not in theaters.

 

To make any money in the theater you have to make it interesting.

 

More people willing to learn watch TV than movies.

[tyjet3]

To make any money in the theater you have to make it interesting.

 

People should be watching the documentary because they are interested in the topic. The truth should be interesting not the lies...

[UberBender]

To make any money in the theater you have to make it interesting.

 

People should be watching the documentary because they are interested in the topic. The truth should be interesting not the lies...

You're using the word should a lot.

 

Don't mistake me, I am on your side, I'm just saying that Mike put this out to make money and not to teach people something.

[Malchik]

Agreed. The word 'should' is inappropriate. People can watch documentaries for whatever purpose they wish.

 

But referring to things as 'lies' and 'truth' is never that simple. From personal experience I know how easily a media report can distort facts. I have seen documents where the word 'now' has been mistyped as 'not', completely reversing the meaning.

 

But there is a difference between stating what is factually incorrect and putting an unpalatable or embarrassing interpretation on facts without distorting them.

 

Since I have not seen the film, I cannot comment on it, but everyone should be careful of branding an opinion as a lie simply because it is not the same as their own.

[surian]

Tyjet, you use the words "lies" quite a bit but you havn't given a single example of Moore outright lying in his films. I was saying that I agree Moore uses bad taste when he ambushes people and sets them up to look stupid, but I havn't yet seen him outright lie. Please post examples if you actually want to have a discussion about this, don't just make blind accusations.

[Darnoc]

Yes, I noticed that. Tyjet, if you're stating something as absolute as "someone lies", then please bring some evidence. And concerning Mr. Heston: He deserved what Moore did to him. Everyone being in this stupid rifle club, mostly the president of such a dumb organisation, deserve such a treatment. How can you be so dumb to lead an organisation which has the purpose to praise an instrument of death? It disgusts me!

[tyjet3]

Don't mistake me, I am on your side, I'm just saying that Mike put this out to make money and not to teach people something.

 

That's the problem...

 

I suppose you are right. It's not really a lie, it's just twisted truth... I just consider any truth that is twisted, changed, alltered, or reconstructed a lie...

 

These are some of what I mean (this from 59 deceits of F 9/11)

 

-Within Fahrenheit 9/11, most of alleged Bush administration lies actually involve Moore's fabrications to create the appearance of a lie--such as when Moore chops a Condoleezza Rice quote to make her say something when she actually said the opposite.

 

-Representative Kennedy (R-MN), one of the lawmakers accosted in Fahrenheit 9/11, was censored by Michael Moore. According to the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy’s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered and defensive.What was Michael’s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy’s remarks didn’t help his thesis: “He mentioned that he had a nephew that was going over to Afghanistan,” Moore recounted. “So then I said ‘No, no, that’s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a nephew.’” Kennedy lambasted Moore as a “master of the misleading” after viewing the interview in question.

 

-(This isn't a lie, it's just sad) In Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore claims to support our troops. But in fact, he supports the enemy in Iraq—the coalition of Saddam loyalists, al Qaeda operatives, and terrorists controlled by Iran or Syria—who are united in their desire to murder Iraqis, and to destroy any possibility of democracy in Iraq. Here is what Moore says about the forces who are killing Americans and trying to impose totalitarian rule on Iraq:

 

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win.

 

Michael Moore, “Heads Up... from Michael Moore,” MichaelMoore.com, April 14, 2004. Of course if you believe that the people who are perpetrating suicide bombings against Iraqi civilians and American soldiers for the purpose of forcing a totalitarian boot onto Iraq are the moral equivalent of the American Founders, then Moore's claim about the Iraqi insurgents could be valid. But even if that claim were valid (and I do not believe that any reasonable person can equate people fighting for totalitarianism with people fighting for constitutional democracy), then Moore is still being dishonest in Fahrenheit when he pronounces his concern for American troops. To the contrary, he is cheering for the forces which are killing our troops, as he equates the killers with freedom-fighters. And if you think that the people who are slaughtering American soldiers, American civilians, Iraqi soldiers, and Iraqi civilians are terrorists rather than "minutemen," then it is true that Moore supports terrorists. By the way, the number of Iraqi victims of Moore's "minutemen" outnumbers American victims by about 10:1.

 

These are only a few, there are a lot more... To use lies and frauds to manipulate people is contrary to the very essence of democracy, which requires people to make rational decisions based on truthful information. It's wrong when a President lies. It's wrong when a talk radio host lies. And it's wrong when a film-maker lies.

 

 

@Darnoc-- Every citizen has the right to have a gun... That was one of the first laws layed down by our countries creaters. You and no one else has the right to change that... If you don't want a gun then don't get one, but don't stop someone else.

[Malchik]

This debate has been held before. If one country occupies another, those attempting to overthrow the occupier must be freedom-fighters whatever either side stands for!

 

And tyjet3, that gun law applies to the US but it does not apply in Europe or AFAIK Canada. It is a so-called 'freedom' I certainly would not like the USA to promulgate elsewhere in the world.

 

Let the USA look to preserve the freedoms that count; freedom of speech, worship, political belief etc. that it is itself slowly eroding away.

 

I would hate it to reach the point where the only 'freedom' the US stands for is freedom to own a gun!