Fahrenheit 9/11...

[ImmortalSnafu]

Thanks for proving my point...

Did the point I was making escape you entirely? Moore just twisted facts, Bush flat out lied to you, me, his other fellow Americans, and the world. If Mike's little misleading statements in his latest movie bother you to such a great extent, why is it that Bush's lies, which cost thousands of lives, bother you?

 

For the records...Al Franken's books are far better than Moore's. Everyone here should go pick up Lies and the Lying Liars today. All of Franken's facts are correct.

[Darnoc]

Everything you just said is one of the weakest things I have every heard. You obviously don't know what kind of world we live in. The world is not dangerous because people have guns, the world dangerous because we have dangerous people.

 

You tell me, what would you do if a large group of people (lets call them terrorist) came in to your house and tried to kill your family... you managed to get away to a closet. You have no way to defend yourself because a law recently passed made you remove your gun from the very closet you are in... how ironic... Want that to happen?

 

America is hated so much that we need defense. Yes, Canada leaves their door opens at night... well tell me this, when was the last time you heard someone say "I hate Canada"... I'll tell you, never.

 

The world is not full of peace so don't try and pretend it is. There will always be someone who hates you because people hate people for reasons (American, christian, racist, ect.). You take away defense, and you might as well go to a middle eastern country holding a sign that says "I hate Muslims"...

 

And that was one of the most stupid answers I ever got to one of my posts. Have you ever bothered to think about why America is hated so much and why you have terrorist attacks and we don't?

 

OK, when you don't know, I tell you: It is because the way you act towards others that determines how they act towards you. When you go around, threatening everyone, exploiting the world, destroying governments which don't suit you, well, then don't wonder yourself when everyone hates you. There is a name for this: Meddling in the affair of others.

 

And that is the reason why Switerland never endured any terrorist attack until this day, with the exception of the Jurassians, which was a problem inside Switzerland itself and had nothing to do with foreign terrorist groups. We do not meddle in the affairs of others, we try to help and we stay neutral.

 

The USA once had a wise President called Monroe. He said something quite like I have told you right now: Stay out of the affairs of others. It saved America a lot of problems. But I think, it is a little different: It is better to not meddle in the affair of others, yes, but when someone calls for help and this call is justifiable (helping Britain against Hitler was), then you can go and meddle in the affairs of others. But not out of your own decision.

 

The USA has power, yes, and it would be a waste not to use this power. But the more power someone has, the greater is the danger of abuse. The reason why the USA has so much enemies and is hated, is because the USA abused its power all the time. The USA used its power in favor of itself, not in favor of others. Everyone does this to a certain extent, because you can't survive without it. But not as entirely as the USA has done it. Since the end of the 2nd World War, the USA has abused the power given to them all the time.

 

You see, I don't fear to be killed by terrorists and I don't think that Switzerland will ever be attacked by terrorists when we stay on our course. We have also made mistakes, yes, but we have learned from them. This is something I do not see in the actions of the USA. I believe that nothing goes unpunished. History revenges itself on everyone, no one can escape this. Every empire will crumble in the end, sooner or later. On the present course of the USA, it will be sooner.

 

But I can tell you this: If nothing unexpected happens, Switzerland will outlive the USA, at least when we stay the way we are: Democratic, neutral and helping. Do you know, why this is so? We have learned from our past and from our mistakes.

 

Once we were much like the USA today. At the end of the 15th century we defeated Karl the Bold from Burgundia, who had the most modern army in whole Europe. From then on Swiss troops were the best of the best and they were feared (and bought as mercenaries). We not only conquered parts of France, but also northern Italy and we thought that we were invincible. Until one day, it was the year 1515, we were beaten by France on the fields of Mariagno in Northern Italy. This is when we began to realize that this is the wrong way. We pulled back and stayed in our borders, we became neutral. After the 30-years-war we officially became parted from the German Kaiserreich and then we stayed in our given borders. Later on we learned, with a little help from the French, that ruling Patricians is not really the way to go and so we founded in 1848 the only direct Democracy on earth. There is no other nation which is more democratic than Switzerland.

 

You see, you can learn from your mistakes. Perphaps also the USA needs its Mariagno to learn from such a defeat. And perhaps then the USA can be known in the world as a nation of peace and freedom, a nation which stretches out a helping hand towards the rest of the world. When this would come true, then Switzerland would only have been the forshadowing of the even greater thing that you will be then. If it happens at all. Then I fear, this is only a dream and the USA will be crushed, has to be crushed in order to save the rest of the world.

[Albareth]

Yes, I've always respected Switzerland and Holland beyond any other country in Europe for their ideals in seperate issues - Holland always being at the fore in the battle to increase the liberty of the citizens, being the first nation to introduce freedom of religion, legalizing cannabis, legalizing controlled prostition - all steps that are logical and sensible. Switzerland for its excellent foreign policies and political system - both of which truly are the future (or lets say should be the future) of all nations.

 

Most other nations would do well to take much that takes place there as an example of the way things must be if we intend to survive as a race for any length of time.

 

As for Moore's movies - love them. He twists truth a little like has been said oh-so-many-times here, but seriously who cares - it has no real impact on the actual importance of what he's saying - which is great. The message is good, delivered in a way that invokes attention... cudos to him.

[surian]

Ok Tyjet, here is the link that was mentioned from Moore's site where he details out many of the points that he has been critisized about.

 

Moore

 

I think that the very first part is about Bill O'Reilly, whom I will not even get started on as it will cause me to take issue with the entire Fox network (fair and balanced my ***). After that there is the list I am refering to, please read some of it as it will refute many of your points quite efficiently.

[pharzon]

To untoachable1: I would actually suggest that you start reading about the things you're ranting about and that you pull your head up that hole it must be situated in and start seeing how the world really is.

Your posts are some of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen and to spicy it up even more, you're actually arrogant and confident about your abilities as well (and believe me, no need for such confidence in your case). Furthermore you don't seem to understand what is said to you and keep repeting the same over and over again.

Well, this isn't supposed to be a flame, but rather a post to give my support to ImmortalSnafu and Surian, who're doing such a good job, I won't - now anyway - have to reply to untoachable1's posts.

 

 

 

pharzon..

[Malchik]

Let's try to keep personalities out of it, in so far as possible, and despite me being partly responsible for the gunlaw debate, maybe that should be a separate thread.

 

tyjet3, the world doesn't hate Americans per se. Much of the world dislikes the US meddling in other countries and this makes them demonstrate against US Policy. Even in Iraq the attacks on US personnel are politically motivated. Of course there will be a few exceptions but I mean few.

 

It has been reported (I don't know how truthfully) that Islam is the fastest growing religion among the white middle class in the US. If that is so it is certainly food for thought.

[UberBender]

About Bill O'Reilly: Hmmm... He twists the facts around?

 

Sounds like someone I know! *cough*mikemoore*cough*

 

Maybe Democrats should stop blaming Republicans when they do the same thing. Nobody's perfect of course.

 

On guns:

 

I hate America being in everyone elses business too. It always ends up with everyone hating us. (sometimes even ourselves)

 

I believe the biggest reason for being pro-gun is this. What if the government decided it would rather be a dictatorship? (with military support) Citizens without guns could not oppose the take over. Guns keep America free from oppression.

[pharzon]

Well now I'm not an American and of course do not know all the details about the second amendment. But if that is best reason for being pro-gun, Uberbender, I think that is a bit vague. In a country like the United States I very much doubt that the government will suddenly decide to concert into a dictatorship, and even if it did it would have to be with the support of the military, thus eliminating every opportunity a civilian would have to change it, firearms or not.

Personally I'm very much against the US gun-policy, but that is - of course - a domestic matter and therefore it has nothing to do with me directly. But I actually find something like "guns don't kill people, people kill people" the most ignorant statement of all. Although I'm not totally anti-guns, I believe that Darnoc actually has some very valid points indeed in this debate.

 

 

pharzon..

[UberBender]

He does have valid points! Guns do kill people! I wish we did not kill eachother.

 

I agree but the only solution where guns sould be taken away is if humans sudddenly became a perfect race.

 

Humans are imperfect, we will kill each other insted of talking about things. We think we should have things that others have. We somtimes go as far as to kill others to get it. We need guns to protect us from ourselves.

 

And making a law against guns is not going to keep criminals from getting them. They are criminals, laws don't apply. (except laws of physics :D )

[Eiade]

I just saw the movie last night. As far as I know, there may be slander. But I believe most of it wasn't. Especially the stuff about Bush and his connections with oil companies, and his desire to go to Iraq for oil. Everything involving these things was backed up by research and many interviews with ex-FBI agents, senators and representatives, and other people holding positions in the white house/gov't/in politics. Those things are true.

 

Involving 9/11: Gov't intelligence knew that Bin Laden was going to attack. But somehow, on 9/13, even though all airports were shutdown, the gov't allowed 30 or so Saudis, including members of the Bin Laden family, safe passage to Saudi Arabia by our own planes.

 

When Bush had a meeting with his high-ranking political advisors, had told them "in an intimidating manner" to bring up some dirt on Iraq, and not Saudi Arabia, which was where the Bin Laden family was from. Bush's family also had friends in Saudi Arabia who bought oil from an oil company in which the Bush Sr. held ownership of.

 

Minimal troops (11,000 or so to be exact) were sent to Afghanistan because it was found that terrorists may be being harbored there. Once the Taliban were routed, the US gov't installed a new president (or prime minister or leader or whatever), who used to work for Bush's oil company, and within a few days, he and the Saudis signed a contract that allow a gas pipeline to come down from the Caspian Sea so that the company can make lots of money.

 

Those are some of the big points and facts of this movie. I may have a few minor facts wrong.