No VATS - Bullet Cam

[MRG]

Greetings all,

 

I am tired of squinting at the screen reading through pages of posts. I hope my question has not already been answered or asked, though i'm sure i'm not the first to think of it or ask about it.

 

My question/request is this: Is there a mod that removes VATS, but enables the random bullet cam for criticals? I have the mod that removes VATS & I have several different mods that improves or adds weapon damage or tweaks, such as removing tracers & slowing bullets. I have used the sgtm command in the console, but none of them do quite what i'm asking.

 

While playing FO3 & using VATS & a sniper rifle, I loved the random bullet cams, as you followed the bullet fly across the game world until it hit the target. I'd like that same option, but without VATS. Is that possible within FO3 & without VATS? Anyone remember the old game "Sniper Elite", when you managed to hit an enemy from a long distance away, as you followed the bullet towards it's destination. I simply love that. Perhaps make it randomly happen only when you get a critical headshot, so as to make the bullet cam a unique feature.

 

If this has been done, PLEASE, I beg of you, point me in the right direction so i can download it.

 

Thanks in advance & thanks to all modders that have thus far released ANY type of mod for FO3. Your hard work is greatly appreciated.

 

-MRG

[fosley]

Ok, sorry if this isn't helpful or even on-topic, but why would you make a mod to remove VATS? Just don't use it, and if you accidentally hit the button or something, re/un-bind it. It's not like this is a multiplayer game and you're modding the entire server to be VATS-free so you can enforce it.

 

As for the bullet cam. . . my understanding is that if I fire at a bad guy, the behind-the-scenes die roll to determine whether I got a crit and how much damage I did isn't done until the physical bullet actually intersects the target. If that's the case, there are three ways I can think of to do it:

1. Run the physics engine forward to determine whether it's a hit, then if the cam criteria are met, play the bullet cam, otherwise do the normal animation. This is probably impossible without hacking into the game code, so I think unlikely.

2. Play the normal animation until you get a hit with the right criteria, then roll time backwards and do an instant replay of what just happened. This would be doable if you could use a script to capture actor data with high enough precision (this is similar to how they're doing the multiplayer hacks, but they haven't gotten very far with it, so it might be harder than it sounds).

3. Re-write the attacking code so it runs as the weapon is fired. It would check to see if there's a line-of-sight between the player's gun and the targeted body part, then roll the behind-the-scenes attack/damage dice, then force a hit even if something gets in the way or the NPC moves between the frame the gun was fired and the frame the bullet actually gets there. This would really alter the physics of the weapons (essentially, you're now firing laser weapons with infinite projectile speeds), plus it would probably require hacking the game code, so again, it's unlikely.

[MRG]

For starters, let me just state that VATS is an awesome gameplay feature & I hope that games in the future will have a similar feature. However, on a second play through, I would like to play the game more as a FPS with RPG elements rather than an RPG with FPS elements. It would make the game more or less "Real-time" & not a use VATS & thus "Watch-a-movie-of-you-shooting-at-several-different-enemies". The other mods I have installed deal with removing the games "auto-aim", thus helping you hit what you actually aim at outside of VATS. While other mods increase spawns, add weapons & general gameplay tweaks.

 

You go into great detail talking about physics & how the game deals with behind the scenes calculations, how does the game calculate the bullet cam BEFORE you hit your target? That is the game play aspect I would like to see in a mod. Hell, i'd be happy if a mod simply made every 25th long range shot a "Bullet Cam" shot.

 

Good info you post tho. Thanks for the reply.

 

-MRG

[fosley]

Well, my point was the game doesn't do those calculations. In order to make a good bullet cam that only comes into play under certain conditions, you would have to alter the game to make it do these calculations. Because you'd have to alter the game, I don't think it's likely it would happen.

 

What would be plausible, though perhaps not likely, would be making a script that waits until after you get the critical hit, then does a replay. This means you're seeing the hit twice, but it would let you control when the bullet cam plays. The hard part would be animating the replay. You'd have to pause all the real action, then put the actors into the position they were in when you fired the bullet, then make them animate exactly the same way they did the first time. This isn't so hard when the game is designed for it, but Fallout 3 is not, so it could be very hard, but I think it's possible.

 

As for making a mod that randomly picks a shot to show one of the various VATS animations without having to enter VATS, I don't see why not. The animations are hanging out in the BSA files, so I'm sure you could just switch to a VATS camera and run the animations, maybe with some scripting to figure out the speed of the bullet and the distance to the target so you can determine how fast to play the animation and how long to stay in that camera. You could enable god-mode while in the bullet camera so your character isn't over there dying or whatever. I won't be making the mod, but it looks plausible.

 

Personally, I hate VATS. It's a poor implementation of an ok idea, and I'm glad I don't have to use it because it would pretty much ruin the game in its current state. If they had actually implemented a Baldur's Gate system where combat is real-time, but all actions are determined by die rolls and skill levels, it would have worked well (I think that's how Fallout Tactics works too, but I only played the demo a long time ago). However, because the game waits until the bullet actually hits or misses before taking character skill into effect, the poor AI of the VATS targeting system screws that idea over. Additionally, the game forces you to stand in one spot while waiting for your VATS shot to hit or miss, so if you turn off the god-mode effect, you're a sitting duck whenever you're using VATS, and if you don't turn it off, the god-mode makes it unfair to the opponents.

 

What I was wondering though, is why you would bother to make or download a mod that disables VATS. It's just like fast-travelling; if you don't like it, don't use it. Further, if you accidentally hit the button occasionally, just un-bind the key, or bind it to something like "]" that you never get near with your fingers. So don't worry about a mod that disables VATS -- worry about a mod that adds VATS cameras to the non-VATS combat. That would do two things for you -- first, it's easier to make a mod when you aren't adding un-needed requirements, and second, more people would enjoy the mod if you didn't unnecessarily kill their VATS.

[MRG]

Well, my point was the game doesn't do those calculations. In order to make a good bullet cam that only comes into play under certain conditions, you would have to alter the game to make it do these calculations. Because you'd have to alter the game, I don't think it's likely it would happen.

 

MRG's Response: I'm sorry, but I don't follow you. How does the game not do those calculations? On countless occasions, I have used different weapons, both vanilla & modded in game & while in VATS, after choosing my targets & beginning the "cinematic sequence" the camera would zoom into the bullet as it left the barrel of whichever weapon I was using at the time & continued to follow the bullet as it flew across the game world & either hit the target or didn't. I thought this was due to getting a critical. All i'm asking for is what VATS already does, just without the targeting mode. Does not matter how it's implemented, as it's already there. Either random chance, or after x amount of shots fired or during a critical hit.

 

What would be plausible, though perhaps not likely, would be making a script that waits until after you get the critical hit, then does a replay. This means you're seeing the hit twice, but it would let you control when the bullet cam plays. The hard part would be animating the replay. You'd have to pause all the real action, then put the actors into the position they were in when you fired the bullet, then make them animate exactly the same way they did the first time. This isn't so hard when the game is designed for it, but Fallout 3 is not, so it could be very hard, but I think it's possible.

 

MRG's Response: I like that idea. Now I just hope some modder with more skills than I possess, which is basically everyone, decides to make a mod just as you described.

 

As for making a mod that randomly picks a shot to show one of the various VATS animations without having to enter VATS, I don't see why not. The animations are hanging out in the BSA files, so I'm sure you could just switch to a VATS camera and run the animations, maybe with some scripting to figure out the speed of the bullet and the distance to the target so you can determine how fast to play the animation and how long to stay in that camera. You could enable god-mode while in the bullet camera so your character isn't over there dying or whatever. I won't be making the mod, but it looks plausible.

 

MRG's Response: You make it sound so damn easy & then you say you'll not make a mod to do it. Must be nice. lol...

 

Personally, I hate VATS. It's a poor implementation of an ok idea, and I'm glad I don't have to use it because it would pretty much ruin the game in its current state. If they had actually implemented a Baldur's Gate system where combat is real-time, but all actions are determined by die rolls and skill levels, it would have worked well (I think that's how Fallout Tactics works too, but I only played the demo a long time ago). However, because the game waits until the bullet actually hits or misses before taking character skill into effect, the poor AI of the VATS targeting system screws that idea over. Additionally, the game forces you to stand in one spot while waiting for your VATS shot to hit or miss, so if you turn off the god-mode effect, you're a sitting duck whenever you're using VATS, and if you don't turn it off, the god-mode makes it unfair to the opponents.

 

MRG's Response: Each person/gamer has their own likes & dislikes. Such as you "hating" VATS. (Hate is a mighty Strong word) While you have valid points, I disagree with you in regards to VATS itself & how it is implemented in FO3. Fundamentally I think they did a good job. However, that is not saying it's perfect, as i'll admit it's far from. I agree with you about the "God" mode the player enters while VATS is being used. I disagree with the devs for having made that a feature of VATS. Would have made the game much more.. strategic, for lack of a better word, which would have forced the player to choose his "VATS Battles" wisely & as i'm sure you are aware, so do many others feel the same way, to the point where a mod has already been released that removes "God Mode" when the player enters VATS. Now you can die while VATS is activated. I only played very small amounts of the previous Fallout games & so I really have no idea as to how the earlier games in the series played & how FO3 ties in with them. I have to admit I love how people compare the differences between games. Wishing one games feature was the same as found in a different game. BG was a great game in it's own right, but i'm happy FO3 isn't "FalloutBauldersGate 3". Thats like me saying how I loved the aliens from the original AVP & wish that the pulse rifle was in FO3 because there may be aliens running around firing their small blue-ray-balls-guns at me.

 

What I was wondering though, is why you would bother to make or download a mod that disables VATS. It's just like fast-travelling; if you don't like it, don't use it. Further, if you accidentally hit the button occasionally, just un-bind the key, or bind it to something like "]" that you never get near with your fingers. So don't worry about a mod that disables VATS -- worry about a mod that adds VATS cameras to the non-VATS combat. That would do two things for you -- first, it's easier to make a mod when you aren't adding un-needed requirements, and second, more people would enjoy the mod if you didn't unnecessarily kill their VATS.

 

MRG's Response: - Downloading a mod to remove VATS from working or re-binding the key. Really does not matter which option you/me/anyone takes, as the end result is the same.

 

Thanks once again for taking the time to type out all you have Fosley. It was a Well thought out post.

 

-MRG

[fosley]

I'm not going to do it because I know it won't be nearly as easy as I've made it sound. I'm sure there are some good modders who know about the animations and would be able to implement this fairly easily, but I don't have the time to go learn about all that. If it was something I could whip up in 3 hours I probably would have just done it and asked "you mean something like this?" rather than bother trying to describe it in a post. So I wasn't trying to be rude or anything, I just don't have the expertise to do it. It would be like me saying I know it's a fairly simple task to put a Ferrari engine in a Honda Civic, and giving the general run-down of the steps involved, but expressing that it requires more skill than I possess to make it actually work.

 

As for doing the calculations, let me start by explaining what I think you're wanting. There are basically two versions of adding bullet cams that I see:

1. Game only plays bullet cam under certain conditions, such as getting a head shot with a sniper rifle or getting a critial hit.

2. Game plays bullet cam under random conditions, such as every 10 shots

 

Now, you said you were Ok with option two. For this, I was suggesting the plausible "just use the bullet cam animations that are hanging out in the stock archives" option. It may be more work that it looks, but it still seems plausible.

 

Number one, however, takes much more work. The problem is that the game doesn't know whether it was a headshot, or critical hit, or whatever until *after* the shot lands. Because there's no more bullet, turning on bullet cam won't help. So the only options I see are doing one of two things (note that there may be another way someone smarter than me can figure out):

 

First, pause the game the instant the shot is fired, run all the normal game physics forward in time (but do this where the player doesn't see it happening--ideally it would happen seemlessly in the fraction of a second between frames), and determine if the shot met your criteria, then rewind back to where we paused the game and turn on the bullet cam if needed, then unpause the game so the bullet does its thing, whether there be a bullet cam or not. However, without hacking into the game code, we wouldn't be able to run the simulation without the player seeing it in real-time, so we still wouldn't know whether it was a hit until after the player watched the bullet the first time.

 

Second, we could go ahead and let the player watch the bullet, then check to see if the shot matched our criteria. If it did match our criteria, we could then go back in time (to that same pause point as in the first option), then replay the same physics calculations over again, but this time with bullet cam activated. In order to do this, we would need to write a script that captures the position and animation state of every moveable object loaded in the player's cell, every time you fire a bullet plus every frame between then and when the bullet hits someone or something, then if the bullet turns into a hit, pause the "real" game, put all the objects back where they were, then manually move and animate every object, once per frame, until the bullet cam was done. I think this is a vague possibility, and might be more possible with something like FOSE, but it would be very hard. Anyhow, the overall effect would be an instant replay of cool shots, which would be neat in its own right.

 

Now, the key in all of this -- the reason why it's so hard to implement -- is that the game doesn't roll any dice until the bullet has hit a target. You don't seem to understand, so let me show how it works. For starters, I'll show you how a typical RPG is handled, in this case, the original Fallout:

 

- Player selects a target

- Player fires at the target

- Game rolls dice behind the scenes to see if the player hit the target, if it was a crit, etc.

- Game properly animates the attack animations based on whether it was a hit, crit, etc.

- Game animates any hit and/or death animations as needed

 

In this case, if you could jump in between the 3rd and 4th steps, you could alter the camera before the shot was fired, based on the various die rolls, and watch the cool slow-motion doom of your various enemies. However, here is how Fallout 3 handles things:

 

- Player points at a target

- Player fires at the target

- Game animates the scene until the bullet physically collides with the target (this is based on how well you aimed, if the target moves or changes directions before you get there, and how much spread your weapon has, but has little to do with your character's skills)

- If (and only if) the bullet collides with the target, the game rolls dice behind the scenes to see if the player got a crit, how much damage was done, etc.

- Game animates the hit and/or death animations, as needed

 

In this case, the third and fourth steps are switched; the firing animation occurs first, and the die rolls occur afterwards. We simply don't know if it was even a hit, much less a crit or head shot, until after the bullet is gone.

 

Hope that helps clarify. The random cam would be hard, but much easier than the replay cam, which would likely be much easier than the look-into-the-future cam. It's not that the concept is difficult, but that the game wasn't designed for it. Making the game do things it was designed to do, but differently, is pretty easy. Making the game do things it wasn't designed to do is much harder. :)

 

Edit: I suppose I would only "hate" VATS if I were forced to use it. Since the designers had the courtesy to not force me into it, I guess I "don't care" more than "hate". If it had functioned like a real-time Fallout 1/2 system (which seems to be what it's attempting to emulate), it might have worked well, but instead it just seems to be a clunky "feature" (though I do use it occasionally for medium-ranged sneak attacks). Either way, I wasn't saying there's anything wrong if you like it, just stating my opinion. Again, I don't like it, so I don't use it -- problem solved. :)

[deliverance6]

honestly, what you need is a C++ coder to write this into a trainer that changes the games code variables as the code is being used.

so essentialy it wouldnt be a mod, more of a hack

[MRG]

I am currently working with a modder that shares a similar interest. The combat aspect of the mod is in it's early stages, but imo is showing excellent promise. Once finished, i'll post about it here, which will bump my original post.

 

-MRG