The New Kingdoms of Man

[MightyZ0G]

true, if the Empire wins it loses the willing support of the seperatist Nords but they are not the majority.

until Ulfric made a big thing about the ban on Talos worship (probably something the Thalmor set him up to do when they had him in the cells) the ban on Talos worship was in name only. there are shrines to Talos in several pro Empire cities.

The High King was a devout follower of Talos who respected Ulfric right up to the moment when Ulfric challenged him and killed him.

if Ulfric really cared about the Nords and Talos then he could have persuaded Torygg to leave the Empire in the same manner as Hammerfell and welcome the Redguards into Skyrim as allies in the war against the Dominion.

but he didn't. he chose personal power at the cost of a civil war which, as you say, weakens the Empire but also weakens Skyrim.

the majority of Empire troops in Skyrim are Nords so whatever the outcome of the war, Skyrim is weakened.

the real difference in the result of the war is whether Skyrim, with the racial tension built up by Ulfric, can get any worthwhile allies if Ulfric wins.

personally (for me and the character I play) this doesn't seem likely, although maybe the mercenaries with curved swords will stand with the Nords against the Thalmor.

ignoring whether outside allies join with the victors of the civil war (as both sides have equal chances of getting assistance) it all boils down to

Empire victory equals Skyrim backed by Cyrodiil and High Rock

Stormcloak victory equals Skyrim alone and Cyrodiil and High Rock without the support of Skyrim

which result would please the Thalmor most?

 

yes, if the Empire wins and retains control of Skyrim it will bide its time before striking back at the Dominion but that is a sound strategy for winning a war in the Long term.

the Dominion may have been weakened by the Battle of the Red Ring but if Ulfric does win the civil war and take the fight to the Thalmor all that will happen is a lot of dead Nords because Skyrim just isn't strong enough to take on the Thalmor.

if Skyrim was strong enough then the Empire would have crushed the Dominion right after the Battle of the Red Ring rather than signing the WGC.

how can Skyrim possibly be strong enough on its own without the Empire?

 

I do agree that attitudes within the Empire could do with changing but as already pointed out, the old Emperor is dead.

a new Emperor will be found and if his advisors are any good they will point these out to him and changes can be made to strengthen the Empire.

who knows, Elisif could be proclaimed Empress and give Skyrim a much greater say in how the Empire is run. but the Emperor could even be a Breton or even a Redguard, which would certainly change the political map of Tamriel.

Edited March 23, 2013 by mighty zog

[positronics]

true, if the Empire wins it loses the willing support of the seperatist Nords but they are not the majority.

until Ulfric made a big thing about the ban on Talos worship (probably something the Thalmor set him up to do when they had him in the cells) the ban on Talos worship was in name only. there are shrines to Talos in several pro Empire cities.

The High King was a devout follower of Talos who respected Ulfric right up to the moment when Ulfric challenged him and killed him.

if Ulfric really cared about the Nords and Talos then he could have persuaded Torygg to leave the Empire in the same manner as Hammerfell and welcome the Redguards into Skyrim as allies in the war against the Dominion.

but he didn't. he chose personal power at the cost of a civil war which, as you say, weakens the Empire but also weakens Skyrim.

the majority of Empire troops in Skyrim are Nords so whatever the outcome of the war, Skyrim is weakened.

the real difference in the result of the war is whether Skyrim, with the racial tension built up by Ulfric, can get any worthwhile allies if Ulfric wins.

personally (for me and the character I play) this doesn't seem likely, although maybe the mercenaries with curved swords will stand with the Nords against the Thalmor.

ignoring whether outside allies join with the victors of the civil war (as both sides have equal chances of getting assistance) it all boils down to

Empire victory equals Skyrim backed by Cyrodiil and High Rock

Stormcloak victory equals Skyrim alone and Cyrodiil and High Rock without the support of Skyrim

which result would please the Thalmor most?

 

yes, if the Empire wins and retains control of Skyrim it will bide its time before striking back at the Dominion but that is a sound strategy for winning a war in the Long term.

the Dominion may have been weakened by the Battle of the Red Ring but if Ulfric does win the civil war and take the fight to the Thalmor all that will happen is a lot of dead Nords because Skyrim just isn't strong enough to take on the Thalmor.

if Skyrim was strong enough then the Empire would have crushed the Dominion right after the Battle of the Red Ring rather than signing the WGC.

how can Skyrim possibly be strong enough on its own without the Empire?

 

I do agree that attitudes within the Empire could do with changing but as already pointed out, the old Emperor is dead.

a new Emperor will be found and if his advisors are any good they will point these out to him and changes can be made to strengthen the Empire.

who knows, Elisif could be proclaimed Empress and give Skyrim a much greater say in how the Empire is run. but the Emperor could even be a Breton or even a Redguard, which would certainly change the political map of Tamriel.

 

"the ban on Talos worship was in name only. there are shrines to Talos in several pro Empire cities."

 

False. The Talos ban was very real. There are only three open Talos shrines in all towns and cities. One is in Riften, which is an Old Hold and still allows Talos worship, having sided with Ulfric. However, once the Empire takes over, Nura Snow-Shod (the Priestess of Talos) is found dead. You can see the Thalmor kill Talos worshippers in several parts of the game, and these Thalmor are not considered hostile by Imperial troops. Doesn't sound like the Empire tolerates Talos worship, does it? The other city shrine is in Whiterun, which is on the fence precisely because it doesn't want to ban Talos worship, and the Empire is demanding it. There is a small shrine in Markarth that becomes barren if the Empire wins.

 

When the Stormcloaks win, people are happy, Talos shrines are put into place, and the Thalmor are killed on sight. When the Empire wins, the Talos shrines go away, but the Thalmor stay. What evidence are you using to presume that the Talos ban wasn't a big deal, when the game shows over and over that it is the cause of the Civil War?

 

Skyrim is individually stronger than Cyrodiil after the war if Skyrim wins (plus I don't see any bandits burning down Whiterun like they did to Bravil) , but that's not the point of my argument. My vision is for the future, and who can build the Alliance best, and isn't centered around Ulfric's personality or any others, but of the geopolitical reality that emerges after the Civil War.

 

Empires don't build alliances, they build colonies, and those days are over.

 

You believe that High Rock is going to stay in the Empire if they lose Skyrim? They won't, take a look at a map my friend. When the Empire loses Skyrim, it is no longer the Empire.

 

Whoever is Emperor next, it doesn't matter. And as an aside, it's impossible for the Emperor to be a Redguard from Hammerfell at this point. The Emperor's advisers are going to be the same clowns that have been letting the Thalmor walk all over them for the past three decades, so what's going to change, exactly? You agree that the Empire has to change it's attitude about bullying its neighbors, but for the Empire to change, it has to not be the Empire anymore. It's as simple as that.

Edited March 23, 2013 by positronics