Where should a desent Nord's allegiance lie?

[Relativelybest]

The imperials almost resemble that of a facist goverment.

 

Well, they're Empire, not the "Parliamentery Democracy." Of course they are going to be authoritarian, what do you expect?

 

Just, you know, same goes for High King Ulfric.

 

They did agree to banish the worship of Talos and that doesn't sit to well with many Nords. It is mentioned in some books regarding the Great war that the terms of the White Gold concordat are similar to ultimatum by the Thalmor in the beginning of the Great war. So, that means that the soldiers who lost their lives protecting the Empire against the Thalmor was all for nothing.

 

Yeah, but in every war you gamble with the possibility that you won't win. And you can't keep figting a war that's getting people killed simply because it has already gotten a ton of people killed. That's called the Sunk Cost Fallacy. It's a logical fallacy by which you convince yourself that you can "make up" for resources you have already wasted by expending even more resources - in this case your valuable tax-paying citizens.

 

Sometimes you just have to stop being stubborn and know when to cut your losses.

 

 

 

SO, which side would be the lesser of the two evils? hmmm?

 

Look, if your character feels both sides have undesirable traits, isn't the sensible thing to not get involved in the civil war at all? Plenty of Nords in the game don't seem to actively participate in the conflict and several are actually outspoken against it.

 

Now, my primary character started out joining the Stormcloaks since the Imperials tried to cut her head off, but then she switched sides for several reasons, mainly that she didn't like Ulfric as a person. But she's also a Nord who grew up in Cyrodil, so she has a more international view of things and believes a stable Empire is probably for the best. Besides, she worships Akatosh, so it doesn't matter much to her that Talos was banned.

 

On the other hand, I have this other Nord character who is native to Skyrim, and who happens to be a fairly devout Talos worshipper. For her, it makes way more sense to join the Stormcloaks. And I have several characters who aren't interested in picking a side at all.

 

See, I think most people overthink this issue - most characters wouldn't factor in stuff like "Ulfric is a racist" or "the Mede dynasty is weak", etc. They are going to make their decision based on what most immediately concern them. If they pick a side, they are going to have a good personal reason to pick that particular side. But if they are undecided and just keep weighing one against the other, chances are they don't care enough to risk their lives over it.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Relativelybest

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

On the metaconversation I'll offer that Zog's claim of sole dominion over Reason is what set me in the opposite direction. That, too, was a mistake; there are reasonable arguments on both sides. I continue to maintain that an argument may both be reasonable and appeal to emotion; the two are not mutually exclusive. A reasonable argument remains so regardless of the style of its delivery.

 

The crazy preacher in Whiterun is an excellent case-in-point: he actually makes the same argument I would come to much later after a great deal of deliberation. His polemic style obscures the salience of what he's saying, but on the fundamental threat of the Thalmor his reasoning is solid: their virtually unrestricted campaign of terror and assassination against the citizens of the Empire ultimately dooms the Empire itself. He doesn't take his argument global, but surely what they're doing in Skyrim the Thalmor are doing across the entire Empire.

 

In amongst a lot of chaff here's the wheat:

"Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very lives? And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people!"

 

Delphine is much more articulate in her explication of the Thalmor threat, but she has virtually no power to do anything about it -- the Thalmor have made her a fugutive from her own government. Her best choice would in fact be to ally the Blades with both Paarthurnax and the Stormcloaks. Fat chance.

 

The Stormcloaks also have a positive geopolitical argument in their favor: they will choose war now over Tullius' hypothetical secret plan to win the war later. As Hammerfell is already at war the divide-and-conquer option of the Aldmeri is foreclosed by the unexpected opening of a new front against Skyrim, whether or not Hammerfell and Skyrim enter into formal alliance.

 

Finally on the question of which leader is the more egregious servant of the Thalmor: today's "useful idiot" is tomorrow's vastly underestimated rebel leader. History is replete with examples, from Emilio Aguinaldo (who ultimately failed) to Ho Chi Minh (who ultimately succeeded -- against China). Lighting a fire doesn't guarantee control over what burns.

[sisterof]

Eh, my opinion has been stated very eloquently by other users - it depends solely on your character.

A "True Nord" isn't a definite term either. A True Nord would want the best for Skyrim, to get rid of the Thalmor and to strengthen his own homeland with proud and honorable Jarls. That said, this True Nord could either believe the Empire is the way to do that, or the Stormcloaks. We fall again in the same question. This hypothetical True Nord could put more value in getting rid of the Thalmor immediately and not fighting anymore for an Empire that already failed Skyrim and has no plans of getting back to its feet, or he could still hope the Empire (founded by Talos himself) will come around to acting.

tl;dr: You can have either a Stormcloak or Imperial "True Nord". Once again, it's all about what your character values the most, and what he's willing to sacrifice.

[Anska]

@Ratcatcher

Thank you for explaining. The preacher in Whiterun really is a very good example. I hadn't even thought of him, because his voice alone annoys the hell out of me. (I quite like the voice-actor otherwise but that preacher is wonderfully unbearable.) I am also of like mind with you on what you said about the Thalmor.

 

@SlayerKnight

I am glad you didn't. While you might already be able to guess, that I don't completely agree with you, I enjoyed reading what you wrote and it made my morning yesterday.

 

What I like about web-forums is, that a lot of different people from vastly different backgrounds can give their piece of mind concerning a topic. Others can read it, comment on it, even challenge it and in this way give you the opportunity to see things from a different angle and understand different ways of thinking - which is a lovely thing in my eyes because it helps you to better understand other people and to relate their problems. In the end it might even help you to get along with someone you never saw eye to eye with before. I am pretty sure sisterof wasn't trying to say, that she's right because other people agree with her either, but just wanted to throw in her opinion of a true Nord into the pool-of-thought. :)

[stockwiz]

judging an entire government by the actions of a few of it's members is not really a good way to go about it. It's the reason so many neocon types talk about 'nuking' Iran when most of it's population are just hardworking people trying to get by, a relatively small percentage that get all the media attention are extremists. Same goes for that execution. There are bad apples in every organization. Gotta think outside the box and look at the organzation as a whole. Using that beginning scene as reason to hate the empire is somewhat shortsighted in and of itself, not taking other reasoning into account.

Edited April 11, 2013 by stockwiz

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

I judge the Empire by the Thalmor it is crawling with. It's like living in Vichy France ... except the French had to actually be conquered before they let in the Gestapo.

 

Solitude is a beautiful city, where nobody is discriminated against and the very idea of a "Grey Quarter" offends all right-thinking people ... until someone thinks to ask the inconvenient question, "Where is the Talos Quarter?" If the Stormcloaks followed the Empire's lead Windhelm wouldn't need a Grey Quarter, either. Except for the weather it would look a lot more like Solitude.

 

A "True Nord" would travel to Solitude, stand on the chapel platform, and start preaching about Talos. It's not what I would do, I mean I'd just as soon show up with an army of 'Cloaks, but anyone who would shout "PRAISE TALOS!" in the middle of Solitude under a suspiciously unstable-looking statue would uncontestably be a True Nord.

 

On the other hand maybe I would do it, if it were possible ... it'd be as easy as drawing a doodle of Molly Norris' teacup and every bit as dangerous. Every time you ran past that crumbly old gargoyle it would call to you as surely as if it had come to life ...