Door references in FormLists equals no Main Menu?

[Ez0n3]

Either I've completely snapped and I'm now insane or I think I've found some kind of bug.

 

While working on a house mod for NV, I hit a bug where the new master file HAD to be loaded directly after FalloutNV.esm or the Main Menu would not appear and the game would go unresponsive. I have been debugging that problem for a very long time. Recently, while tinkering on my house for F3. I hit the exact same problem right after I added a Door reference to a FormList that I created. I think Skyrim might also have the same problem.

 

To replicate the Door in FormList bug, simply add any Door reference to any FormList and save that file as a Master (ESM). Then load that file directly after the main ESM file (in this case FalloutNV.esm) and the Main Menu will work. Now try loading the new Master after another master such as any DLC masters and the Main Menu will be missing. IE: If the Master has a FormList with a Door reference in it, then that master MUST be loaded directly after the main ESM or Main Menu will not appear and the game will become unresponsive.

 

Also, for NV at least, this appears to also be the case for Light references (although it may have something to do with light refs with external emittance set). Doors alone will cause the problem, but it still existed after I removed all of those. It wasn't until after I removed all Door and Light refs from all FormLists that I created, that the bug vanished.

 

I have read that this bug is normally caused by refs that no longer exist. This is not the case, these refs definitely exist.

 

Maybe someone else would like to confirm this?

 

Posting to hopefully save someone else from venturing to the brink of insanity :/

[Deleted2547005User]

Are those references that you add to the FromLists overwritten in the mod, or new references within your file?

[rickerhk]

How did you manage to get a reference in a formlist without a script?

I've only ever been able to add base objects to a formlist in the GECK.

 

Aside from that, I've found that the game is more strict with esm files (or even esp files that are masters - like in a merged patch) and something improper that will work fine in an esp, will cause a hang on startup if the plugin is an esp or master of another plugin. And like you mentioned, I've seen it in skyrim too. An esp with invalid conditions on perks worked fine as an esp but as soon as the plugin was a master of the merged patch - hang on startup. In New Vegas, scripts will fire in an esp even if a reference doesn't have the 'persistent' flag set. Soon as you esmify it, the script fails (like it should). I assume your formlist was used in a condition or script?

[Ez0n3]

Are those references that you add to the FromLists overwritten in the mod, or new references within your file?

They are new FormLists and new Forms/Refs. Nothing is being overridden.

 

How did you manage to get a reference in a formlist without a script?

I've only ever been able to add base objects to a formlist in the GECK.

 

Aside from that, I've found that the game is more strict with esm files (or even esp files that are masters - like in a merged patch) and something improper that will work fine in an esp, will cause a hang on startup if the plugin is an esp or master of another plugin. And like you mentioned, I've seen it in skyrim too. An esp with invalid conditions on perks worked fine as an esp but as soon as the plugin was a master of the merged patch - hang on startup. In New Vegas, scripts will fire in an esp even if a reference doesn't have the 'persistent' flag set. Soon as you esmify it, the script fails (like it should). I assume your formlist was used in a condition or script?

Open the FormList and then drag refs from the Cell View window and drop them in the list. I have done this with many types of forms/refs, but Doors and Lights seems to be a special case. There may be others. Off the top of my head, things I know work fine are: NPC's, Statics, Movable Statics, Activators, Idle Markers.

 

Ya, there seems to be a few things that have to be just right - or else. This one was driving me bonkers because while working on it, all I had was the main master and the mod. So the problem didn't appear until much later on when I was testing it with DLC/other mods.

 

The FormLists giving me grief arn't actually used by anything nor do they have any conditions. They were just used to group things together. For instance, the shack places 3 objects in the Mojave: Map Marker (STAT), Cave Door Frame XMarkerHeading (STAT) and a Cave Door (DOOR). So I made a new FormList called "ShackMojaveRefs" and dragged those 3 refs into the list. That way, I could edit the refs by opening the list rather than opening the Mojave. It's pretty handy when it isn't stopping the game from working. :/

 

I'm almost positive I hit this in Skyrim as well. A betting man would put money on it being in Oblivion also :wink:

Edited May 3, 2013 by Ez0n3

[Deleted2547005User]

It's most likely a limitation in the Gamebyro engine, and would be in Oblivion as well as Skyrim as it is just a even more bastardized version of Gamebyro, "Creation." You can try to rule out Emittence on lights by adding Statics with emittence, but most likely Doors and Lights cannot be added to FormLists at all, but because of the janky programming in Gamebyro, there are cases where you can get away with it. Think of your discovery more of a loophole in the code rather than a bug. As for stuff breaking down when converting an ESP into an ESM? In my experience, I've never had that happen. If you've been in FNVEdit as much as I have, you'll see patterns to the records in a file, and it becomes rather easy to figure out what records need to be a certain way before making the file an ESM. I have more if you want to know.