Baelkin Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Bah... I've encountered a small setback. I've been trying to get the high poly version of the left shoulder to bake proper on the intended low poly but with little success. It just seems like I'm missing something, because the details like the holes around the spiky doodads register pretty well on the baked texture, but all the ridges and rims are either completely missing from the bake, or they don't really go where they are supposed to. I figure it's a either "fitting" problem as the low poly model doesn't conform 100% to the high poly shape, or it's due to the projection cage not being setup correctly, or a combination of both. Meh, guess getting this to work takes longer than I had anticipated. :wallbash: :whistling: I've done alot of normal mapping on source, the thing about it is that stuff doesn't "Poke out" it mearly uses the lighting to look as though it has more bumps and vallys on it. Its a nice effects but its only really good for stuff like scratches, rusting and engraving sort of stuff. but if you want to add any larger crevises or lumps then you should sculpt them into the model. Maybe you are right. It just seemed like a nice option to lower the polycount on areas like the back, where you have a lot of small details poking into the mesh, which aren't that noticable whether they are modelled or added by normal mapping. I think I need to revise my strategy a bit in terms of what stays on the low poly, because it seems like more of a hazzle getting it to work than what it eventually might be worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltorn Von Dentai Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Well, you said something about ridges and rims? um... correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the origonal armour actually had any ridges or rims on the shoulder pads... I'm probably wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SangRahl Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Maybe you are right. It just seemed like a nice option to lower the polycount on areas like the back, where you have a lot of small details poking into the mesh, which aren't that noticable whether they are modelled or added by normal mapping. I think I need to revise my strategy a bit in terms of what stays on the low poly, because it seems like more of a hazzle getting it to work than what it eventually might be worth.From these picture, you can do a lot with Normal/bump mapping... http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Baelkin/Item%20Renders/midsectionbackclose.jpgThe ridges on the shoulderpads and buckle on the "fanny pack" could be trimmed down and mapped... http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Baelkin/Item%20Renders/backsuperclose.jpgThis could be simulated pretty well, some of the REALLY finite detail might be lost, but in movement and gameplay it'd be lost, anyhow. http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Baelkin/Item%20Renders/gauntletclose.jpgCircular details on back of hands and on bracer (not the "bolts", but the shallow details), as well as the shallow ridges... http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Baelkin/Item%20Renders/gauntletcloseinternal.jpgBuckles on underside The problem I think you're hitting is a lack of UV map for texturing*... I think I ran into that (only very basic texturing experience, here) when attempting to retex your headgear like the helms from 'Gone With The Blastwave' comic on a whim. Because it uses only a single texture mapped top, bottom, left, and right, there is massive distortions on any sections that bend over the top of the helm, making anything changed from near flat black to look warped. I worked for several hours, just trial and error, to get the look I wanted, but then finally came to the realization that I'd never have a recognizable icon on the helm, because it'd get squished to near nothing due to placement.*Please note, I could be so massively wrong in this assessment... lack of sleep, and all... heheheh. I'm loving the progress reports, and due primarily on your mod, and requests thereof, I've actually watched Wolf Brigade. Always nice to expand the horizons a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baelkin Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 *snip for brevity* I agree on your assessment on what could and should be added with Normal maps on the low poly compared to the current high poly, but my problem is still getting it done correctly with the render to texture method in 3ds Max. I also agree that my UVW mapping skills are far from perfect (as evident on the UV of my mask and helmet) and I probably should work a bit on making more accurate UVs, as that at least would take that out of the equation when determing what's wrong with the bake. When I unwrap my models I think of what details are going to go on the texture according to source material, and where the details will be placed rather than making "universal" unwraps. The tradeoff is that some areas will get distorted, but the areas I know will hold details according to source are laid out for easier texturing. For instance, on the helmet, I could just as well have mapped it with the front unwarped, but that might mean the sides, where the original texture holds three perfect circles on the normal map, would have been warped instead making them "unperfect", or at least difficult to get perfect. As for the model I've been using for the experiments, the unwrapping layout method I used is simply selecting the polys of a continous surface within a certain visual angular threshold on the model, and then applying either a planar or quick planar map, as to reduce distortion due to errors made manually laying out the UV by tweaking the vertices. In any case, I'm going to continue making attempts at getting it right, but using one of the simpler parts of the model, as the shoulder I've been using isn't really optimal for this type of experiment, at least not as a "learning" attempt. Once I've learned exactly what to do, I can do the more complex parts correctly rather than just hitting my head against a wall. :whistling: :wallbash: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baelkin Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 I've taken a broader look at my model, apprach and my source material on normal baking, and I think I've come closer to figuring out what's wrong and finding a solution. First off I think the low poly model I used for my experiment was a bit too low poly, as the shape didn't comform as well to the high poly as you could have wished. So now I'm redoing just a small part of the shoulder plate, with a slightly higher polycount on the target low poly as to preserve better overall shape conformity with the high poly model. This should rule out any errors caused by non-conforming meshes. Secondly, I'm not sure I've Sub-D'ed the high poly enough for the bake, as the high poly models on this normal bake tips and tricks are Sub-D'ed to relatively "bloblike" shape, which I haven't done on my previous attempts. So if the conforming low poly doesn't catch the details this time around, this will be the next thing to try out on my list. Third, and this is probably a completely stupid question/point, I'm not sure how much the UVW map of the high poly model means when it come to using the rendering to texture cuntion. None of the tutorials I've found has mentioned this, so if anyone could confirm/debunk the idea of the high poly needing a proper UVW map I'd much appreciate it before I begin spending hours on unnecessary unwrapping. I'm under the impression that the surface information of the high poly model is projected onto the UVW map of the low poly model and thus the high poly doesn't need a proper UVW, but this could be the "ultimate" failing point and the reason my bakes don't turn out well. Oh well, back to the fighting the good fight! :starwars: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGD Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 You know what would be pure awesome? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNyfNwWlOEs About 1:55 in, the monster's eyes leave glowing neon trails.... How cool would that be in Fallout in general, and this mod in particular? It looks a little something like this: http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/FullMetalPatriot/eyes.jpg EDIT: This armour takes me back.... To when I watched Jin-Roh reeaaaally late one night. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baelkin Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 Just a small update. I've managed to get a relatively decent normal bake off of the top of the left shoulderpad, though I still need to refine the result and method for a more crisp normal. As can be seen on the below renders, the normal map has picked up the detail ridge around the edge of the high poly model and, when applied on the low poly, it shows up as intended. The fuzzyness and black areas are due to the model behaving a little odd after I subdivided it with a simple meshsmooth, so on the next attempt I'll port it to Zbrush instead and use the subdivision tool there as that should yield a better Sub-D'ed model: High Poly http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Baelkin/Item%20Renders/NormalTests/higpolyshoulder.jpg Low Poly http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Baelkin/Item%20Renders/NormalTests/LowPolyShoulder.jpg Low Poly with baked Normal map: http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Baelkin/Item%20Renders/NormalTests/shoulder.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltorn Von Dentai Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Its looking good! Do you have an approximate date you expect to finish or do you have no idea? lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baelkin Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Its looking good! Do you have an approximate date you expect to finish or do you have no idea? lol. I honestly have no idea when it'll be done, but judging from my current pace it'll be a while. :) I figure if I really apply myself to the task, and don't do much else in my sparetime, I could have the low poly model ready for texturing in about a week or two (need to both model and make UV maps). Then I'd still need to spend some time to bake decent base normal maps as well as figure out how to rig the mesh so it'll work proper in-game. I'm not looking forward to the riggin part as that's one of the least documented processes around, so it'll take a lot of trial and error just getting the basics to work, and more trial and error making the mesh behave like I want to (ie. no deformation of kneepads and vambraces when the limbs bend). In fact, if I were to set a timeframe I'd adopt a good old government principle of "it'll be done when you least expect it". I'm aware it's difficult keeping interest in a project that doesn't have a well defined timeframe, but that's just how it is when you have a lot of unknown variables to account for. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyd80 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Can't Wait!!!:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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