Wisdom of the Ancestors - Discussion

[darkedge42392]

Chrys! About time you came back. :D good to see you RPing again.

 

@mythic: I was waiting for Zephyr to reply... But since Sienna and Faeryn are both there, maybe you or Auri could fill the gap?

[Macman253]

Been awhile Chrys... good to see you again.

 

So I broke the silence... aaaannnddd now were off to the races :biggrin:

[Zephyr2011]

Sorry about the hold up, I'll post this evening. I got confused with the whole vision thing and where I should fit in with that. But now I've got a good idea on what to post. Good to see you again Chrys! Heck we could even revive souls at this point too, the gangs all here.

[AurianaValoria1]

If you want to go ahead, Zeph, I'll go after you.

[darkedge42392]

Sorry about throwing you off there Zeph. I wanted to follow up on Mythics post. >.<

[SoulofChrysamere]

Okay, with Auriana's permission, I am posting my theory on how the Thalmor-Imperial battlelines are drawn. Keep in mind that much of this data can be gradually leaked throughout the story, but I thought it might help all of us to have a coherent template to work with. Even if we never get directly involved with the main armies, we still need to be aware of where they are going and what they are doing. If we just ignore the conflict, we might forget we're in the middle of a war.

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The Legion and Thalmor armies warring in Skyrim have never been very large, so I don't think big and complex military strategies would be feasible here. The commanders would have to keep the plans as simplistic and economical as possible, I believe - which means no elaborate, multi-pronged attacks or anything of the sort. At most, a two-pronged operation, I would think.

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EITHER-WAY TERRITORY

 

The constantly disputed tug-of-war zone is of course central Whiterun, as evidenced by Auriana and all the grief Whiterun City's been getting.

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THALMOR HOLDINGS AND IMPERIAL STRATEGY AGAINST THEM

 

Auriana said that the Thalmor have probably fled to the mountains in the north and have possibly spread into the southwestern parts of Skyrim as well. I think this general area fits perfectly, actually! I think it is safe to assume that the Thalmor are going to be strongest in western Cyrodiil since that's the first region they will hit coming from Hammerfell, Summerset Isle, High Rock, etcetera. Thusly, it would be much easier for them wriggle their way into southwestern Skyrim and possibly drive northward from there to secure their holdings in western Skyrim.

 

Now, this poses problems for the Thalmor - problems the Legion can use. Of course, a large part of western Skyrim is the Reach, and it's home to the Forsworn, which you said are still being unholy terrors to anyone and everyone not of them. This means that even when the Thalmor in the Reach aren't dealing with the Imperials, they are having to constantly stay on their toes in order to ward off Forsworn attacks, and the Reachmen will still be trying to waylay convoys and caravans. This largely separates Haarfingar and Hjaalmarch from Falkreath and southern Whiterun - the two areas where the Thalmor holdings are more solidly defended upfront, but are logistically troubled due to the fact that many supplies they try to move through the Reach get destroyed by the Forsworn. Now, the Thalmor to the northwest could also be getting supplied by sea since they're on the coast, but the lack of safe passage through the Reach really makes that their own reliable lifeline.

 

In this respect, the Legion has two main plans it can try to implement in order to ultimately break the Thalmor armies from what I can see. Keep in mind that these strategies hinge on first establishing a secure hold on Whiterun, else the Legion armies could be cut off, isolated, and smothered.

 

The first option is to vigorously forge directly into the Reach, powering through both Forsworn and Thalmor alike in order to wholly separate the two Aldmeri flanks. In most cases, this would potentially be a short-lived accomplishment, but Skyrim's topography lends some hope to this. Thalmor reinforcements coming from Falkreath must pass through the northern bottleneck that the two mountain ranges there create, and this is a perfect spot to ambush them while they are unable to fluidly maneuver, and even if the ambush is ultimately repulsed, the Reach proper is only a stone's throw away from the bottleneck, and the Legion can make use of all the hills and cliffs to give the elves nightmares. Thalmor armies coming from Haarfingar have problem of first getting past the large natural moat surrounding Solitude (If they are coming from there, and being magically adept, the Thalmor wizards could easily just cloak the force in a waterbreathing aura and everyone can march straight through across the lakebed.), and even then, they have the marshes and swamps to get through and afterward the same problem as the southward forces - moving through the Reach's inhospitable landscape, which the Imperials should have a chance to occupy and somewhat fortify while the Thalmor are going through the marshes. In essence, this should give the Empire a chance to "divide and conquer" the other two Thalmor holdings. In this way, the two convexes are kept much smaller and forces in different areas can move much more quickly to aid the others.

 

The second option is to flank the Reach and attack the two strong flanks directly, hoping that if they are conquered, then the Empire would be able to totally surround and crush the remaining Thalmor in the Reach. Personally, I believe this to be the worse of the two options, though. The main concern is of course that these regions are heavily fortified and in solid Thalmor control. Assuming that the Legion could take Falkreath and southern Whiterun, this would leave them vulnerable to a counterattack from Thalmor in the Reach (The Thalmor in the Reach probably won't just sit idly by and let themselves get suffocated and squashed, judging by how fiery the Aldmeri generals can be.), which could potentially make their situation untenable because of how extended they are. The same problem goes for the Legion in double if it manages to take Haarfingar and Hjaalmarch. There's the danger of a counterattack from both the Thalmor in the reach and the Thalmor Navy from the sea, which could establish a naval blockade and assist with a siege of Solitude if they manage to repulse the Empire's ships. Basically, this stratgety seems to leave the northern far-stretched Legion armies fighting on two fragile fronts at once. This huge, singular convex is buffered by the Reach and pretty much prevents any significant help arriving with any measure of speed.

 

If the Imperials are going to pursue option two, then they can march into southern Whiterun and then press into Falkreath for taking the south, and they could use any of the several passes in the mountains separating Whiterun from Hjaalmarch to take the north. Marching northbound armies along the coast is ill-advised in my opinion, since they could be seriously harrassed by Thalmor ships even with their own naval escort.

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IMPERIAL HOLDINGS AND THALMOR STRATEGY AGAINST THEM

 

The Imperials should have been able to dig in all throughout eastern Skyrim. Dawnstar and Winterhold seem to be the weakest of the holdings since they are along the coast and stand to receive the most expedient punishment should the Imperial Navy waver against the Thalmor fleet. As for land attacks, the Thalmor have a few options. As with Imperial attack strategies, the Thalmor must control Whiterun in order for these plans to have any degree of efficacy.

 

Bandit gangs are thick in the Rift, and so they serve pretty much the same function as the Forsworn in that they pester and destroy Imperial supply convoys.

 

These two strategies are generally the same as the ones the Imperials can attempt.

 

The first option is to drive straight east along the main road eastward out of Whiterun (the one with the Valtheim Towers). The Imperials could harrass the army by attacking from the hills bordering the road on the right, and the Thalmor would essentially have to try to buffer themselves on two fronts. The Rift is hilly, but not nearly as bad as the Reach, and the Pale and Eastmarch are also a lot flatter than the Reach, so retribution from the Imperial armies would likely come faster. Assuming the Thalmor could dig in, capture Windhelm, and thus establish control of the Pale and Eastmarch, then they would be fighting on two shaky fronts, dealing with Winterhold from the north and the Rift from the south. They don't have the topography of the Reach to help them here, and so I don't think this strategy would quite work here in view of the less arduous terrain. The only main obstacle that I can see would likely be the vast hotspring fields in the middle of eastern Skyrim, but the armies could march across even those if they really had to.

 

The second option is to flank the Imperials from the north and south. The northbound assault would involve both a naval and land assault against first Dawnstar and Winterhold, and then forging inland to the Pale and Eastmarch once those are in Thalmor hands. The southbound assault would most likely go through the southern pass between the Throat of the World and the Jerall Mountains and hammer into the Rift. The Thalmor would have to first subdue the Rift and then press northward into the Pale and Eastmarch to aid their northerly comrades in surrounding and smothering the remaining Imperials. Since the terrain is more conducive to better maneuvering, this seems like the more plausible of the two options.

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Basically, I believe the Imperials will be trying to divide and conquer, and the Thalmor will be trying to surround and smother. Again, the side that controls Whiterun largely dictates the course of the war, so that hold must be secured first.

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So...what do you all think?

Edited June 19, 2013 by SoulofChrysamere

[darkedge42392]

Looks good!

[Zephyr2011]

The breakdown looks good chrys, it all sounds very probably and realistic given actual military tactics and the situations of both forces.

 

On another note, somewhat inspired by Chrys's post: considering the amount of references to Shadows, we should probably iron out some of the details of what happened after we left off, or, better yet, go back and finish the story (at least more of it). There's been a lot of allusion to the group's role in the Oblivion crisis, what exactly did Marczon, Adrynn, Velanya and the gang do to help? It involves taking down the Mythic Dawn we've gathered, but what specifically? Were we with the Champion of Cyrodiil as well? Just food for thought, it's kind of neat having a lot of gaps as well, but there's a few more important details that I think could use filling in.

[SoulofChrysamere]

If it so behooves you all, I *could* analyze the situation for the Thalmor in the Reach more in-depth and possibly hammer out some secondary battlelines between the Thalmor and Forsworn. Scouts and experienced mercenaries who have been in the Reach a lot (For example, my two people Suetin and Serrabinashiah and any similar folk from you all.) would know who has control of what in a lot of cases, and where the big battlegrounds are. It might save some confusion later?

[darkedge42392]

The breakdown looks good chrys, it all sounds very probably and realistic given actual military tactics and the situations of both forces.

 

On another note, somewhat inspired by Chrys's post: considering the amount of references to Shadows, we should probably iron out some of the details of what happened after we left off, or, better yet, go back and finish the story (at least more of it). There's been a lot of allusion to the group's role in the Oblivion crisis, what exactly did Marczon, Adrynn, Velanya and the gang do to help? It involves taking down the Mythic Dawn we've gathered, but what specifically? Were we with the Champion of Cyrodiil as well? Just food for thought, it's kind of neat having a lot of gaps as well, but there's a few more important details that I think could use filling in.

Well, our main goal for that RP had always been to route the Mythic Dawn from Mournhold. It made perfect sense to have them follow the cult back to Cyrodiil. But the reason it's blank... Well, honestly I wouldn't know what would happen exactly. I know what Adrynn would have done, and I could guess as to what the others might do, but beyond that, it's all speculation. But that's a good thing. :) After 200 years, you'd figure there would be many different, conflicting accounts of what really happened. Only they know the truth. ^^

 

(And as for the Champion of Cyrodiil, the group may have met him/her and closed a gate or two, but I don't think they would travel extensively with him/her. Especially with Caius probably keeping the group close to Cloud Ruler temple and Bruma/Cheydinhal. But that's just my ideas, what're some of y'all's?)