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UberSmaug

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  1. In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569, #24836294, #24836444, #24838359, #24838789 are all replies on the same post. "Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash." ~Vesuvius1745 ~ Piggy-backing on the backs of others is the foundation of any society it is a fundamental aspect to the evolution of any community. It is not unique to "open source". Profit or Non
  2. In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569, #24836294, #24836444 are all replies on the same post. @Vesuvius1745 This statement has implications far beyond selling mods. I've heard this before from a self proclaimed pioneer of modding. My response to you is the same. The entirety of Human Civilization and beyond is built on the backs of those who came before. No man and no thing is an island unto themselves. You say you pioneered modding, that may be true, but you stood on the backs of those who pioneered gaming in the first place, who in turn stood on the backs of those who pioneered computers, who stood on the backs of those who pioneered the use of fire, who stood on the backs of nature itself. If your argument were held as true, no one has the right to charge for anything, not mods, not games, not iPhone apps, not food. We should all be sacrificial animals. We all exist simply to serve others. A complete communal utopia where there are no possession, no rights, and no self. Certainly some do believe that. Its called Altruism.
  3. In response to post #24817394. Its is similar to if you bought a charger for your phone. You cant be upset that it doesn't also charge your electric razor as well.
  4. In response to post #24815524. Update: After discussion with Valve, and listening to our community, paid mods are being removed from Steam Workshop. Even though we had the best intentions, the feedback has been clear – this is not a feature you want. Your support means everything to us, and we hear you. Original Post: We believe mod developers are just that: developers. We love that Valve has given new choice to the community in how they reward them, and want to pass that choice along to our players. We are listening and will make changes as necessary. We have a long history with modding, dating back to 2002 with The Elder Scrolls Construction Set. It’s our belief that our games become something much more with the promise of making it your own. Even if you never try a mod, the idea you could do anything is at the core of our game experiences. Over the years we have met much resistance to the time and attention we put into making our games heavily moddable. The time and costs involved, plus the legal hurdles, haven’t made it easy. Modding is one of the reasons Oblivion was re-rated from T to M, costing us millions of dollars. While others in the industry went away from it, we pushed more toward it. We are always looking for new ways to expand modding. Our friends at Valve share many of the same beliefs in mods and created the Steam Workshop with us in 2012 for Skyrim, making it easier than ever to search and download mods. Along with Skyrim Nexus and other sites, our players have many great ways to get mods. Despite all that, it’s still too small in our eyes. Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one. In our early discussions regarding Workshop with Valve, they presented data showing the effect paid user content has had on their games, their players, and their modders. All of it hugely positive. They showed, quite clearly, that allowing content creators to make money increased the quality and choice that players had. They asked if we would consider doing the same. This was in 2012 and we had many questions, but only one demand. It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do. We’re even careful about highlighting a modder on this blog for that very reason. Three years later and Valve has finally solved the technical and legal hurdles to make such a thing possible, and they should be celebrated for it. It wasn’t easy. They are not forcing us, or any other game, to do it. They are opening a powerful new choice for everyone. We believe most mods should be free. But we also believe our community wants to reward the very best creators, and that they deserve to be rewarded. We believe the best should be paid for their work and treated like the game developers they are. But again, we don’t think it’s right for us to decide who those creators are or what they create. We also don’t think we should tell the developer what to charge. That is their decision, and it’s up to the players to decide if that is a good value. We’ve been down similar paths with our own work, and much of this gives us déjà vu from when we made the first DLC: Horse Armor. Horse Armor gave us a start into something new, and it led to us giving better and better value to our players with DLC like Shivering Isles, Point Lookout, Dragonborn and more. We hope modders will do the same. Opening up a market like this is full of problems. They are all the same problems every software developer faces (support, theft, etc.), and the solutions are the same. Valve has done a great job addressing those, but there will be new ones, and we’re confident those will get solved over time also. If the system shows that it needs curation, we’ll consider it, but we believe that should be a last resort. There are certainly other ways of supporting modders, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn’t replace another, and we want the choice to be the community’s. Yet, in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations. Revenue Sharing Many have questioned the split of the revenue, and we agree this is where it gets debatable. We’re not suggesting it’s perfect, but we can tell you how it was arrived at. First Valve gets 30%. This is standard across all digital distributions services and we think Valve deserves this. No debate for us there. The remaining is split 25% to the modder and 45% to us. We ultimately decide this percentage, not Valve. Is this the right split? There are valid arguments for it being more, less, or the same. It is the current industry standard, having been successful in both paid and free games. After much consultation and research with Valve, we decided it’s the best place to start. This is not some money grabbing scheme by us. Even this weekend, when Skyrim was free for all, mod sales represented less than 1% of our Steam revenue. The percentage conversation is about assigning value in a business relationship. How do we value an open IP license? The active player base and built in audience? The extra years making the game open and developing tools? The original game that gets modded? Even now, at 25% and early sales data, we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited. We also look outside at how open IP licenses work, with things like Amazon’s Kindle Worlds, where you can publish fan fiction and get about 15-25%, but that’s only an IP license, no content or tools. The 25% cut has been operating on Steam successfully for years, and it’s currently our best data point. More games are coming to Paid Mods on Steam soon, and many will be at 25%, and many won’t. We’ll figure out over time what feels right for us and our community. If it needs to change, we’ll change it. The Larger Issue of the Gaming Community and Modding This is where we are listening, and concerned, the most. Despite seeming to sit outside the community, we are part of it. It is who we are. We don’t come to work, leave and then ‘turn off’. We completely understand the potential long-term implications allowing paid mods could mean. We think most of them are good. Some of them are not good. Some of them could hurt what we have spent so long building. We have just as much invested in it as our players. Some are concerned that this whole thing is leading to a world where mods are tied to one system, DRM’d and not allowed to be freely accessed. That is the exact opposite of what we stand for. Not only do we want more mods, easier to access, we’re anti-DRM as far as we can be. Most people don’t know, but our very own Skyrim DLC has zero DRM. We shipped Oblivion with no DRM because we didn’t like how it affected the game. There are things we can control, and things we can’t. Our belief still stands that our community knows best, and they will decide how modding should work. We think it’s important to offer choice where there hasn’t been before. We will do whatever we need to do to keep our community and our games as healthy as possible. We hope you will do the same. Bethesda Game Studios
  5. In response to post #24811984. #24812039, #24813429, #24814149, #24814369, #24814459, #24814579, #24814829, #24815214, #24815539, #24815809, #24815829, #24816074, #24816474, #24816529 are all replies on the same post. If you want to stay in business you would have to provided customer service. You would be a fool not too. You could easily put a clause in the agreement that a modder must maintain their mod for a set period of time after release or be held responsible. I think that is standard for many software products. But that doesnot mean must make sure its compatible with every other mod out there.
  6. In response to post #24811984. #24812039, #24813429, #24814149, #24814369, #24814459, #24814579, #24814829, #24815214, #24815539, #24815809, #24815829, #24816074 are all replies on the same post. I think you would see a lot of free Demo versions of mods being released before the paid one. I think it would happen quite naturally. I love when games do that. If you have an armor mod. Put out the a cuirass for free. If people like it and want the rest of the set they can buy it.
  7. In response to post #24811984. #24812039, #24813429, #24814149, #24814369, #24814459, #24814579 are all replies on the same post. Stats are directly from the workshop about 5 days in. These were the top performers. Purity selling for $2.99, 1400 subs = $4191.98 25%=$1047.99 Shadow Scale set $1.99, 1985 subs = $3950.15 25% = $987.54 low $1.49 " = $2957.65 25% = $739.41 Wet and Cold $4.99 670 subs = $3343.30 25% = $835.82 low .99 " = $663.30 25% = $165.82 Gifts of Akatosh $1.49 1456 subs = 2169.44 25% = $542.36
  8. In response to post #24811984. #24812039, #24813429, #24814149, #24814369 are all replies on the same post. Asking for donations is not allowed in the agreement. Its like a tip jar that gathers more dust than money. Technically sounds like it should have been illegal until Bethesda gave us permission to profit from their IP.
  9. In response to post #24808369. #24808829, #24809074 are all replies on the same post. Many have said there should have been a discussion about this before they sprung it on us. Agreed. Well this is that discussion. All be it a little late. Aside from a few bad apples. This has been the most sane forum I have found on the subject. Kudos to you all.
  10. In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579, #24803969, #24804034, #24804529, #24804714, #24806699, #24806919 are all replies on the same post. Never did I think sales would remain consistent. Those sales were achieved with 2000-4000 subs. some mods have subs in the millions. Granted by virtue of the fee your subs will take a big hit. Still a mod selling into the tens to hundred thousand range would not be unrealistic. Is there a guaranty your mod will sell that well? No. Again that's where risk comes into play. Most entrepreneurs fail. A few just get by. But a select few are wildly successful. As I understand it these first items were given little over a months notice to get ready. Two of the armor mods made available were unfinished and should not have been offered for sale in the state they were in. Would you pay for a half built car? Hell no! In the Future this would not fly in a marketplace. Complaints about this were valid, and I'm sure played a part in pulling the plug for now. However, mods could be developed from the ground up with the paid model in mind. How about a weapon mod that also included a new dungeon and quest to go with it for example. Adding actually gameplay value. This is what is implied when I say compensation would force increase quality in paid mods. Perhaps even force increased quality in 1st party dlc.
  11. In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803579, #24803969, #24804034 are all replies on the same post. Again, Purity made over $1000 in 5 days. some of the armor and swords had already made $800-$1000. In 5 days. That cost would have been covered in no time at all. people could continue to make large mods for free if they wish.
  12. In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794, #24802849, #24803969, #24804034, #24804529, #24804714 are all replies on the same post. @freedom613. you have some valid points but I still feel you are underestimating the potential here. Yes there are cost involved, its call overhead. "1,570 to make a simple sword". But why would you stop after making just one sword. License is a one time fee to make many product that will pay out over time. Every new mod you produce has the potential for profit. Could you fall flat on your face in failure. Sure. There is risk in business. Still the decision to make that risk should be left to the individual mod author should it not. Regurdless I was responding to the fact that people are saying Donations work leave it alone. Donations do not work. Even top modders against paid mods have said as much. I disagree that money will end all collaboration. Nothing would stop Authors from making deals to share profits in exchange for using each others assets. You would just have to ask.
  13. In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679 are all replies on the same post. @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint. "...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited." -Bethesda Game Studios I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.
  14. In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799784 are all replies on the same post. by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.
  15. In response to post #24798804. "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations." -Bethesda Game Studios Donations don't work.
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