Gabryal

No biggy there, I just didn't want anyone to think that I was logging in on another account to make my points again ;) I've been pretty passionately pushing the Stormcloak agenda on this thread for awhile now. Fight the good fight, I've retired for the time being :)

Haven't logged on this for a very long time ( took a hiatus from Skyrim ) I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that Stormcloak117 is -not- me, even though he's making the exact same arguments for the Stormcloaks and assessments of the world situation that I made, including even using some of the same analogies. I maintain there is only one choice for the sake of morality in this game, and it's the Stormcloaks. Anything else is akin to finding yourself in a hard spot and then collaborating with the SS in WW2. ( See Vichy France ). Once you've crossed that line, it is up to everyone, no matter how moral individually, to take a moral stand against the greater evil. The administrators and bureaucrats of the Vichy French thought they were doing what's best for their people perhaps by being puppets of the Nazi's, but the fact of the matter is that they were assassinated, snubbed, and after the war was over treated as collaborators, put on trial, and for the most part executed. If the Dominion is as bad as the Nazi's ( look it up, they are ) then there is simply no reason, none, no acceptable situation, under which you sign any treaty with them. Even when England and the USA didn't know exactly -how- bad it was to say the Jews in the Third Reich they knew it was bad, and they resolved themselves to fight to the death to stop it. The Empire -knows- how bad the Dominion is and they still went to the treaty table with them. That makes the Empire about 1000 times worse than Vichy France in my mind. I've made all of these arguments before, and honestly whoever stormcloak117 is they're saying exactly what I've said before and just as well so I don't need to jump in on it again. Mostly I just am writing this to say that whoever they are, they aren't me, even if they do make an amazing amount of sense. Bigmagy my brother, I still can't follow your reasoning, and don't agree with you at all, and if anyone could convince me of your point of view it would be you. I just can't accept it.

Wow lot to reply to here, and I've kinda got out of the long responses mostly because they've started exhausting me. I think first I did have a revelation about something you kept referring to that confused me but I thought I knew what you were saying bigmagy, and do correct me if I'm wrong. After rereading some of your posts it seems that you were saying that Ulfric was either a pawn or a tool or an agent of some sort for the Dominion at one point. I had no idea that you were thinking that or else I would have brought it up before now. This simply isn't the case, nor have I found any evidence that I would call credible on any wiki anywhere at all that would suggest he was. Zaknafein hit it right on the head with his first point in his post. You and I are both Military men, we've been around the block so you might know what the 519th Bn 51st Infantry ( part of the 525th BSB ) does. I know quite a bit about Intelligence Lingo, and an " asset " is anything that you can get information from. Even the famous 52 pictures on the playing cards were considered " assets " in Intelligence terms, essentially all it means is potential source of information. Even Osama Bin Laden was an " asset " in Intelligence terms. In all likelihood considering the Thalmor's reputation Ulfric was more than just a prisoner of theirs but he probably went through some " rigorous interrogations " while captured, or torture if you don't like screwing around with stupid jargon. As far as Elenwen and Helgen goes I'm not 100% on what you're referring to, but that being said, it doesn't point to any collaboration that Ulfric had with Elenwen all it means is that the Thalmor thought him too valuable to be executed ( say when we decided not to kill Hussein in '91 ) namely that she thought he had potentially more value alive than dead. If this means that the Thalmor think that the Rebellion benefit's their cause, then you could also easily say that means that the Empire is actively supporting it's own demise by upholding the WGC, since the Thalmor are playing both sides against each other ( demanding the Empire uphold the WGC and also prodding Ulfric to continue his rebellion ), it stands to reason then that if it had been Tullius on the chopping block at Helgen captured by Stormcloaks Elenwen would have rescued him too, since the goal of the Thalmor is to prolong the war, and that means neither leader can be killed. In effect that means that if Ulfric is Elenwen's man, so is Tullius ( or the Empire in general ) it means that Ulfric is not guilty of anything that the Empire isn't, so the situation is neutral and therefor irrelevant. I'll have to disagree with you on Tullius and Rikke, and here's why and I think you'll understand it. Leadership is something that comes from yourself, or above. You'll remember this in sub-unit training exercises. They pounded home to everyone about CoC even as a private they'd tell you you were a command of one. Not an individual, a command of one. With Ulfric and his Stormcloaks the buck literally does stop with Ulfric. He's the top of the CoC, all Leadership falls downward from him, down to the lowest ranked members of the Stormcloaks. It is a simple Impossibility for Tullius or Rikke to have " Leadership " in the sense that Ulfric does. They are not the CINC they are subordinates, with Rikke being at best 2nd in Command of the Imperial Forces of in Skyrim ( With Tullius being 1st in Command in Skyrim and the Emperor being CINC overall ). This means that while they may have a long range Strategic Goal, and a series of Tactical goals, the overall role of Leader falls on the shoulders of TMII. At the time of the beginning of the game, it is TMII alone who embodies Imperial Leadership ( and this cannot change, you know how CoC goes, even in the US system, the only way CINC changes is through an election ) with Tullius and Rikke simply being tasked with making decisions to carry out the desire of TMII. Even if TMII dies in the course of the story it does not matter, the original and throughout the entire game, Tullius and Rikke may be fine commanders, but they are not leaders, nor can they be without replacing TMII. Ulfric is both handicapped and unfettered by not having this problem. He is handicapped in that he, as both the political and military leader of the Stormcloaks, has to fill more than one hat. He cannot be simply a good soldier, he has to also inspire his troops through his personal reputation. Tullius does not have to do this, Imperial troops may or may not love him as a commander ( for the most part they seem to be indifferent, though some are warm towards Rikke ) but they do know their duty to the Empire, and Tullius is just another commander. If Tullius was replaced with a different Commander then nothing much would change except the Strategic and Tactical positions that might differ between Tullius and the new commander. So Tullius could die in his sleep and the overall result to the Imperials would not be nearly as grave ( perhaps better since I believe that Rikke would then assume command ) as if the same happened to Ulfric. He is also unfettered however, he does not have any limitations put upon him by anyone of higher authority, his only responsibility is to his troops and his country. This lends itself to a freedom of choice that Tullius does not enjoy. If he choose a certain tactic that works particularly well against Legion troops he's free to do so for as long as he wants. If Tullius is ordered to do something by TMII, then he has no choice but to obey. Ulfric's command is therefor more flexible even if it's more perilous. I think I read something in there about a coup on Ulfric's part. I'd like to re-interate that this is only considered a coup by the Imperials. The longer you go along in the game, the more you realize that a lot of what happened when Ulfric killed Torygg is propaganda spread by the Empire. Now don't get me wrong, I think Ulfric was not without ambition in all this, but here's even according to what Torygg's wife said about the conflict. Torygg ( who I find incredibly tragic ) was waiting for Ulfric to arrive, he knew he was coming and he assumed it was to discuss ( as they had before ) the secession of Skyrim from the Empire. They had talked on this before and Torygg, who had quite a bit of Hero worship for Ulfric, was about 90% on the side of secession. However he was also at that particular time, whether he knew it or not, control'd by the empire. They're troops were thick in Solitude ( as they had always been ) and I think Torygg naively believed that his word would be respected if he declared Skyrim free ( while I believe that the Empire would have arranged an accident, not the first time it's happened ) but what happened next was either a tragic misunderstanding, a necessary evil, or the work of an Ambitious man who also had a right to the Crown ( Windhelm being the traditional Capitol of Skyrim ). Ulfric showed up and challenged Torygg to single combat. This story is straight from the lips of the Solitude Steward. Torygg was shocked but could not say no, and the result was a foregone conclusion. Now whether or not Ulfric used the voice doesn't matter. In duels of challenge the Voice is permitted, but the truth was that Torygg had never seen a battle, never killed, he was just a young man and untested in battle. Ulfric on the other hand had been in the thick of war, and was a renowned swordsman. So Torygg was killed by Skyrim tradition. Not assassinated, not overthrown, killed by challenge. A legal Skyrim institution. If you continue on with the story from other sources you read that -Imperial- forces chased Ulfric from the city, not Solitude guards, but Imperial troops. This was not Skyrim law, by Skyrim law a moot was to be called, and by tradition the victor in single combat would be made High King. Now was Torygg in league with the Empire? I say almost certainly not. Was he being manipulated? Subtly he was yes. The Empire was playing on his Naivete and his youth. Did this justify what Ulfric did? That's debatable, personally I think if I had been Ulfric I would have arranged for Torygg and Igrid to be " rescued " by the Stormcloaks and brought to Windhelm where talks could be made without the Empire watching over Torygg's shoulders. I'm not sure how that would have played out, or if it was even possible, but I would have tried. Then again, I like Torygg from everything I read and have heard in the game, whereas if Ulfric felt he should be High King and not Torygg ( in that he was Ambitious ) then Ulfric went about his ambition in the honorable Nord way. So no coup there. As far as Skyrim once belonging to the Orcs, if we want to play that one out we might as well give it all back to the Dominion, because at one point they owned all of Tamriel. Skyrim belongs to the Nords through right of Conquest, it's as simple as that. Did the Orcs end up on the short end of the stick? Yes they did, but they did because they lost. They weren't tricked or deceived, they were just beaten. This is no different, or less moral, than the fact that the Dominion doesn't control Skyrim now because they themselves were defeated. Does this justify Nord attitudes towards Orcs or Elves or Bretons? Yes and No. Yes in that when the country that you populate is under threat from outside forces you become insular. This is true of any nation, but especially an Empire. A good example of this is the Modern UK, where Scots don't like the English in their country ( in general ), this of course doesn't mean the Scots are currently in rebellion, but if the Scots are bigoted towards the English in peace time ( and let's be honest the English are bigoted towards the Scots as well, again in general ) imagine how much more so they would be so in a time of rebellion. If you were in Scotland and it was in a state of rebellion against the UK it wouldn't matter if you were Italian. Being a non-Scot would be good enough. Even Balgruuf wouldn't allow Redguards into his city and he's pretty Moderate ( Redguards looking for a traitor that turned over one of their cities to the Thalmor no less, if you want direct collaboration with the Thalmor I'd say that Balgruuf would be more guilty of it than Ulfric though neither of them very much ). Ulfric didn't murder Torygg, as far as Jarl B goes, challenge for vengeance and challenge for Leadership are two very different things in Skyrim. He didn't murder Torygg, and he refused Balgruuf on the grounds that Balgruuf wasn't challenging him for anything but for an old feud. All things considered, the war is a nasty business, but things have to be put into context. Grey-Mane cares as much about Whiterun as Balgruuf does, so if you play through with Grey-Mane as the new Jarl you get to see Balgruuf in a different light. He seems much more like a bitter man who makes a lot of excuses than as the leader so many thought he was. That's just personalities though, not data processed to form a conclusion ( imperfect data but all the data I could gather ). All that being said, sometimes things just need to be done a certain way, and in Skyrim's case, the arguement could be made that siding with either side benefits the Thalmor, but you can only say that one side will -always- benefit the Thalmor, and that's the side of the Empire ( for reasons I've already listed ).

It's a helluva a lot easier to change a High King in Skyrim than it is an Emperor, aside from that I am relying on hope of a better world, not a guarantee. I do think that the current incarnation of the empire is a guarantee loser for everyone, not just Nords. ( except of course the Dominion )

Understandable, but I hold that the Empire in it's current Incarnation will fall, as far as Skyrim belonging to the Nords, well if it belongs to anyone it does belong to them. If some idiots are racist towards anyone they are either bitter, stupid, or both. That's true anywhere though ( I doubt you wouldn't find some Orc's acting the same way towards other races in a similar situation ) all that being said. The Empire -is- doomed and Skyrim -might- be. In fact more than the Empire is doomed I'm hoping it dies. It needs to so it can be reborn. I also said before that Hammerfell is as big a mess, if not more, than Skyrim is ( check out it's politics dear god they are nuts ) and it still managed to throw the Dominion shackles off. What could be is more important than what is at this point. I always keep on pointing out that what happens in the game is of little consequence when compared to the before, and the after. The game is just the focal point where what will happen to Skyrim is decided. What happens after the game, and what happened before it is what focuses my mind. I don't defend idiots, or even Ulfric, what I defend is the right to rebel ( in whatever form ) and the right to destroy that which is worth destroying ( at this point both the Empire in it's current form and the Dominion ) that being said I do understand why people side with the Empire. I just disagree. Cheers :)

Damnit Big, I was hoping the other people would look it up :P You did leave out something pretty significant though, after the Markath incident TMII authorized the Stormcloaks to wage a guerilla war against the Occupied Skyrim ( while the Skyrim Legions were marching south to save Cyrodil ) which makes them slightly more than just Ulfric's personal Army. TMII gave Ulfric that power, not anyone else. If Ulfric's Stormcloaks are a mess and rebels now, they weren't always. They were created by Imperial Decree. I stand by that the Empire as it exists today isn't worth saving. Any Nation anywhere ( including in reality ) that would sign the WGC would be my personal enemy till the day I died. The ban on Talos worship alone galls me ( I love the Septims too much to dishonor their memory. I remember just how damn 3 dimensional, passionate, brave, and humble Martin was. He literally is by far my favorite TES character ) So yes, I am for breaking the Empire. Destroying it completely, and let the chips fall where they may. I have faith in man, I have faith in it's ability to survive the worst of conditions. If slavery is their future then they rose up once, and can do so again. I don't think that will be the case though, I think man has come to far, I think they will fight till the end whatever that may be. Hammerfell proved they could do it, Skyrim could too I have to believe, even Cyrodil once they get rid of TMII could do so ( I remember how hard the troops of Anvil fought the Daedra for example ) the point is that the Empire needs to be shattered, and perhaps then it can be reformed. Like a broken sword reheated and reforged stronger than it ever was. It does no good to continue to slash away with a blunted and weakened sword until it breaks when it is most needed. The time of this Empire is done ( and it need not be the -last- Empire, the Septim's forged the 3rd Empire of man I believe, I could be wrong ) I'm just saying that the current Empire must be broken for any chance of man to rebuild itself into what once was, and what I hope may be again. I can never submit to an Empire that would sign the WGC, the very fact that the Legions didn't rebel amazes me. What happened to the fighting men who I watched die beside me when I played Oblivion? I believe their souls still exist, that Talos guides them still in some hidden recess of their hearts, and I think in the darkest of times, when the will of the mighty falter, when the corrupt rule, and when the old institutions develop decay and rot away, that leaves room for a new institution, and new future. That's what I fight for, an end to -this- Empire, and a better future for men. The Dominion will fall, because the one thing that always destroys those who oppress is one thing and one thing only. Hubris. They believe they can't fail, and so they have no plan for failure. It's what's happening to the Empire now ( imho ) and honestly if you listen to General Titus ( isn't that who it is? ) you hear it, Hubris. He has no doubts he will win, and sees it all as a minor inconvenience. It's only Rikke who is truly concerned, for she lacks Hubris. How the might fall, and honestly they must fall. So the Empire as it exists today will fall, one way or another, because of Hubris, and the same will happen to the Dominion. The real question for me has always been, will I speed the fall of -this- Empire which will no matter what, and honestly needs to for the sake of all men everywhere? Or will I help prop it up just a little longer. In the end the Dominion will strike, their goal has never been secret. The extermination and/or enslavement of mankind once more. The Thalmor will never deviate from that goal. So why help them by propping up a institution that only weighs down the inevitible, that only hurts mankinds chances in the long run? That's how I see it. All my analogies still stand, I always encourage people to go back and read them and ask themselves " Where is he mistaken if he is? " and " What would I feel if in an alternate Earth that had happened? " When I lift my sword and bow and hand to unleash magic against the Imperial forces in Skyrim. I do so in the name of Tiber Septim, of Uriel Septim who placed such faith in me, and in Martin Septim who gave his life for his people. Who knew how to love his people more than any institution, whether it be the crown or the Empire. I lift my hand for an idea. Not for Ulfric, but against tyranny, whether that Tyranny is -this- Empire or the Dominion, or anything that forces men to their knees. I lift my hand in the name of Glory to what was, and because I think it is the only way that such ideas will be again.

I think I may know to much about the lore of this game for it to be healthy for me to read this thread regularly. I don't know how much more clearly I can make my points but it seems that they aren't really read, or understood. Nothing is as black and white as what it appears, and the question still boils down to which side is moral and which side isn't. For that you have to know the history that led up to this mess. I just find it frustrating to hear Hadvar's opening lines be given as the reason to join the Imperials, or hear about this Jarl or that Jarl, or hear about " Ulfric did this or the Imperials did that " or whatever in the game. The game itself is mostly meaningless, the side you choose to join ( if you do ) really doesn't matter because you'll play it out till the end and on either side you'll receive a relatively satisfactory outcome ( unless you meet Ulfric in Sovengarde, but that's the only thing that really changes based on which side you choose ). In short for the story of the Dragonborn aka " The Game " is only the very end of a story. What people aren't talking about and should be in my opinion, is how we got here, and what's likely to happen after. The game itself is the least relevant reason to join one side or the other, no matter how strange it is to think that way. The real consequences of your decisions in the game, won't be felt for a decade or more, and that's what's truly important. I personally would love to think the Empire can be saved, I simply can't. The absolute disgust of what they have done before the game even started makes my skin crawl. I just remember the last words said to you by Uriel Septim in Oblivion, and Martin's last stand, and all that once was and I just simply cannot believe that it's come to this. I'll say it again though, Ulfric is not my first choice for High King, honestly if I could have picked anyone mentioned in the game who could have been, I'd bring Torygg back to life. After that would come Balgruuf, Ulfric would be around 4th or 5th, but you don't get to choose that do you? So you work with what you work with. I'm not trying to persuade anyone at this point, my previous posts, if anyone ever bothers to read them ( and bigmagy's excellent rebuttals ) say everything I have ever ment to say and more. I just wish that before people posted they could properly answer the following questions. Why did Hammerfell Secede from the Empire? What is the White-Gold Concordant and what does it say? Why and when were the Stormcloaks formed? What is another name for Talos, and why is it significant? What areas of the World does the Aldmeri Dominion control? I shouldn't care but I do, if this is going to be a vote I'd like it to be an informed one, instead it feels like American Idol, or worse the Presidential Elections

All true, but I stick to my analogies. The Empire of today has become so atrocious as to no longer to deserve to exist. Some things aren't forgivable, and the actions of the reign of TMII has broken any respectability the Empire has had ( see all my analogies, I've made a helluva a lot of them ). Now in a perfect world the following would exist, and it would be the perfect thing. TMII is overthrown as a gesture to Skyrim, the WGC would be torn to shreds, and a crusade of utter annihilation against the Thalmor control'd Dominion be waged. The war to decide it all, immediately, and with zero falter. Every single thing that Ulfric wants to happen, short of making him High King ( I'd love to have them give the crown to Balgruuf, since Torygg is dead ) and of course short of the annhiliation of the various people he wants to destroy ( offer Amnesty to any Forsworn who will take up arms under Imperial Banners ) and announce to Skyrim that every member of the Stormcloak who is willing to swear loyalty to Skyrim as a province of the Empire be granted Amnesty and welcomed back as a full member without prejudice into the fighting forces of the " new " empire with a certain degree of self rule ( put Skyrim Legions directly under the command of the High King for example ). Make the same offer to Hammerfell, and then launch the crusade, for good or for ill, against the Thalmor. I'd support the Empire in a heartbeat then. Don't think for a second that I like Ulfric, or think he's the best man for the job, I just think the situation is so screwed up that without radical change the Empire won't be able to stand against the Dominion ( Remember the purges were in fact purges. The brutality that they were put down shows that the Thalmor still have a pretty firm grip on the government ) I really think in the end it's a choice between two really bad choices. If guarantees were made to Skyrim ( the one I'd hope for most is the signing into law that the official HIGH deity of the Empire be Talos ) then all this would be over, all the wind out of Ulfric's sails, and let him fester away in bitterness. That would be what I'd prefer, and if I thought it would happen I would side with the Empire. I just can't get over how atrocious the actions of the Empire ( well TMII ) were when he signed the WGC. The war should have been fought till the bitter end, because at that particular moment and only then, did the Empire and Dominion have similarly balanced forces. Now the scales are definitely in the Dominions favor. I honestly have no idea how it will all play out in the end, but I see the whole game of Skyrim through a semi-pessimistic point of view politically, and really the only true hope is for the Dragonborn to make his stand. I made the statement once that Ulfric isn't as bad as he could be, and that TMII is so much worse than he should be. No one argues that, the problem has always been how do you undo the damage that TMII caused? That I don't see how to do ( except by the above ). The civil war doesn't have to be, if the Empire gave terms to Skyrim half as well as they gave terms to the Dominion then it would be over very quickly. The Nords, as Aldvar said, are not " fair weather friends " but the weather is beyond what anyone should be expected to bear. That being said I understand your opinion, I just can't agree with it under the context of the game. ( I'm also not of the opinion that Balgruuf's replacement is worse than Balgruuf himself, they both seem to be men of honor who put Skyrim first, they just differ on how to do it ). Anyway, Politics aside, I can't side with an Empire that has done and is doing what it's doing. You can't treat your subjects worse than your enemies. It just sits so sour in my mouth. And I'll be loyal to Tiber Septim before the Empire every time, I owe the Septim's that, and the Empire of today simply hasn't shown them the loyalty that they should. ( In HF remember too that they finally introduced a Redguard Housecarl, so it's not -completely- racist I guess... ) Oh well, I'd love to support the Empire, I'd love to end the Rebellion... but only if the Empire returned to the Empire I have loved for so long. As long as it's horrendous I can't morally justify joining their side.

I do see your point, but the good of Skyrim cannot hinge on any one man, and Balgruuf for all his intelligence, cannot stop the Thalmor. The difference between the Dominion and the Empire is still what I said. They've had ten years to rebuild and grow stronger. The Empire hasn't, and yes that's TMII's fault, but once it's broken it's broken. TMII will go down as the worst Emperor in history I'm sure, but he'll also go down as the last. The question still remains as to who will run Skyrim, the Dominion or the Nords, because the Empire won't hold onto it either way, even if I do agree that Balgruuf would by far be the better High King ( I still wish Torygg had survived personally ), the Dominion doesn't have the problems the Empire has and doesn't have the internal or external problems that the Empire has. It's just as simple as that, the underlying reality is that the Empire died when Hammerfell was able to do what TMII couldn't, namely prove that the Dominion isn't all powerful. I've gone over it all before, and dissecting individual personalities of individual people in what is really is a non-issue ( 300 years from now it won't matter who defeated the Dominion, only that the Dominion is defeated ). One thing is absolutely certain however and that's that anyone in the game would be a better leader than TMII. If Ulfric can do it then so be it, and Balgruuf didn't have to sign on with the Empire but he did ( over of all things a childhood rivalry with Ulfric ) and that's the way the chips fall really. I suppose there is the third option that I've not thought of, but is a possibility. The Empire survives for another 10 years ( the empire wins in Skyrim ) then the Dominion attack again, Skyrim is occupied again, and a better leader than Ulfric stands up for Skyrim and fights them off, again. No matter what though, the Empire will lose Skyrim, it's only a matter of how, when, and why.

All I can say is every argument I've made up until this point still applies, I'll side with the Stormcloaks for all the reasons I've given before, and I'm pretty dead set in it. I just don't see any justification whatsoever for the Empire to continue, especially if you consider that no matter who wins in the Civil War in Skyrim, that Skyrim will lose. They were devastated in the Great War, without Hammerfell to back them up they'll be so again. The way I see it is really that 10 years from now, unless by some miracle an Empire weakened by the lose of Hammerfell, a third of it's Legions, and whatever the toll this war is going to take on the Empire as a whole if Skyrim remains in it, can defeat the Dominion which has only grown stronger in the time that the Empire has grown weaker, that Skyrim will either belong to the Nords or the Dominion, but certainly not to the Empire. So if the Empire wins Skyrim suffers occupation from the Dominion as I see it ( as it did so before in the Great War, same as Hammerfell, that's how the Stormcloaks started afterall was as a resistance to Dominion Occupation ) if the Empire loses, then perhaps it suffers the same, perhaps not. One thing that the Dominion definitely learned in the last war was that you can't leave the Empire out of the Fight, and you can't fight the Imperial Provinces ( or former ones such as Hammerfell ) at the same time. Ironically it seems that the reason the Empire survived has much less to do with signing the WGC and much more to do with the fact that the Dominion had it's hands full for five full years -after- the signing of the WGC fighting Hammerfell alone. The Empire it seems cannot survive on it's own, Hammerfell it seemed could, and I hold onto the belief that Skyrim on it's own could do the exact same thing ( as far as Internal politics, Jarls, etc goes look up what Hammerfell's internal Government is like, jesus it makes Skyrim look neat and tidy with anyone who has the option to be a Jarl as more Qualified than any leader in Hammerfell ) all that of course is an aside, what it all amounted to in the end was that for 5 years Hammerfell made a stand alone and won. The Empire fought a 3 year war, with the help of Hammerfell and Skyrim, and lost. That's pretty pathetic honestly, and very poor martial ability on the part of the administration of the Military. All that of course is meaningless to me, who can beat the Thalmor may be academic at this point. For all we know the damage of the WGC will never be undone and the Empire will die no matter what, such things aren't addressed in the game. Perhaps it's only a matter of time till man is enslaved again by mer, again no way to know. I do know that the ban on Talos worship the Empire will never recover from ( something like how Catholicism never recovered in England after Henry VIII formed the Church of England ) and that alone is so awful as to leave me disgusted. Tiber Septim so dishonored makes me gag. That's just the one thing, and I've made plenty of analogies to the others. The question always remains in the end " What -kind- of Country is the best type in this situation, not strongest, but most moral " in this there is no question. The Empire has failed the right of nations to exist in my mind, and I've given plenty of examples as to why. Skyrim hasn't failed, yet, so the Stormcloaks should get their chance. Or if that isn't enough for people, just think about what dicks we in the USA were to the British Empire when we decided that -they- had failed the right to govern us, and the war we fought against them ( less effectively than the Stormcloaks I might add, and more brutal, cruel, and dishonorable. Don't read the text books kids, find a real history book ) we decided that a 2% tax increase was enough to tell the British Empire that they had lost the consent of us to be governed by them. Then consider that the Empire has done about 10,000 times worse. I know it's a new analogy but the ones I'm using over and over just don't seem to be sticking, even if they are correct.

The Alt Start mod is ok, usually though I prefer to start with the regional politics from the get go, though I understand your reticence because how many times have you ( for me it's 7 completed games and several more that I have not ) found yourself amazingly bored at attending your own beheading ( knowing what is coming kinda dampens the mood ). The class mod you're talking about is called Character Creation Overhaul, and it truly is a little slice of heaven. It's one of those mods that should have been incorporated in the game from the beginning ( like half a dozen others I could name ) but fortunately some genius out there did Bethesda's work for them. It may just be me, but does it kinda feel like Bethesda has gotten lazier with it's two recent release ( F:NV is good, but no where near as crisp as FO3, where much less needed to be repaired in the bugs department ) and has started counting on modders to fix their BS ( case in point, take TES5edit and run a sweep of Dawnguard when compared to it's " Master " file ( Skyrim.esm ) on redundent UDR's, actually scratch that I'll just tell you. The number is 6,053. That's right, when you install Dawnguard it duplicates 6,053 items that are already in the Skyrim.esm. To fix this would have takes all of 5 minutes with TES5edit, and if an outside source piece of software can do it, what could the owners of the actual source code do it in? ). It's really discouraging sometimes to see the holes left in the game that are so blatantly obvious as to be nearly saddening. It feels like after awhile of playing Skyrim unmodded ( don't do it! ) that the game wasn't completely finished, a good example is arrow gravity weight. As an avid archer I'll tell you that if my arrows went up at a 60 degree angle the first 2 feet then dropped like a rock inside of 30 feet, I'd think someone spiked my water. However that's exactly what happens in vanilla skyrim. Oh well, I've aired my woe's on this topic often enough that it's kinda repetitive, and fortunately guides and mods exist that fix 90% of these problems. Of course it doesn't -help- when they release a new addition or new content and this content to is buggy ( Why do I have to have 3 unofficial patches? Skyrim, Dawnguard and Hearthfire ), I just wish they'd pay the guys on the Nexus who fix there sloppy work.

been considering this myself, but honestly not sure I want to play any of them at this particular moment. Not sure what I -do- want to play now ( already beat COD Black Ops 2, Assassin's Creed 3, and rebeat Mass Effect 3 ) but not sure if I want to go back to Fallout just yet, I do love the post apoc setting, I hope they come out with a new one at some point soon.

You realize my friend you and I have bounced from one side to the other and back again that I'm dizzy, we've both been pro-imperial, then pro-stormcloak, then pro-imperial, then pro-stormcloak ad nauseum. I guess that means they wrote in a pretty good story to Skyrim, but I think you're right in the end, the Empire just isn't what it used to be and it can't be put back together again. I did a comparison with the Empire of Today vs The Empire during the time of the Septim's using relatively modern times and events as analogies. I think those analogies were lost on a lot of people, but one of the things I did mention was " If the UK had caved to Nazi Germany, and then banned the Scottish Presbyterian Church, and then allowed the SS into Scotland to drag off anyone who practiced Scottish Prebyterianism without trial or notice never to be heard from again, most people would be behind Scotland if they Rebelled under those circumstances, and be appalled if the UK in response to the Rebellion attempted to put it down with British Troops " I think that statement was lost on most people with the UK being the Empire, Nazi Germany being the Dominion, the Church being Talos Worship, and the SS being the Thalmor. I also pointed out in that analogy that Scotland ( or anyone ) would follow a guy who cut off people's faces and wore then as a hat, if that guy could liberate them from the SS and by proxy the British Troops. I think for the most part this is true, in case of point William Wallace used to make belts out of straps of skin from the English Soldiers he killed, and he's a Scottish Hero, so I'm not too far off the mark there. I also pointed out that compared to a guy who cuts off people's faces and wears them as a hat, Ulfric isn't that bad. I really do think I'm spot on with my analogies, and still stand by them, but it is a sad sad thing to see. The Empire is dead, and TMII is responsible, and there is no going back. If the UK in my analogy had done what in the analogy I said it had done, there would be no UK today. We all know it, and honestly we'd be glad it was gone, look at it as a horrible relic of the past, an institution that deserved to die and in it's last moments broke apart like a rotten melon. No one living today would have blamed the Scots for rebelling nor supported the British actions of invading and occupying Scotland to put down the Rebellion. So why would people support the Empire who has done exactly that? If the Empire is the UK in my analogy, and all the pieces I just brought up are accurate ( and they are, no one's argue'd that yet ) then why would anyone support the Empire? That's what it really came down to for me, and the saddest part about it is that it didn't have to be that way. Titus Mede II killed the Empire, and I don't mean " Wounded Badly " I mean killed. No one can bring it back from the death blow he gave it. In Britain's Darkest hour Winston Churchill said " We'll Fight on the Beaches, We'll Fight in the Streets, We'll Fight in the Hills, We'll Fight on the Seas, We'll Fight with growing confidence in the Air, We'll Never Surrender! And should the day come when the Shores of Britain feel the boot of the Gestapo then from our Colonies and our Territories we shall fight on until Tyranny is put down, perhaps for years, perhaps alone. So I do not fear, nor shy from the coming conflict for should our Empire last for another thousand years, let men say that this was their greatest hour " Not a direct quote but close enough. Titus Mede II said " Thank you sir may I have another " Britain's Darkest hour was much much Darker then the Empire's Darkest hour, and you simply can't come back from " Thank you sir may I have another " it just doesn't happen that way, once you make a mistake of that magnitude the entirety of the system upon which your institution was based " The Strength and Majesty of the Empire " is evaporated. Illusion makes reality, and you can't undo the past. You're absolutely right when you say that the Empire has already started " The 8 Divines " thing, and with it Talos can never come back into the fold, never fully, never again. That alone changed the Empire forever, and really that alone was enough to break it, even without the shameful cowardly actions of TMII. The problem is that once it's done... it's done. The Empire was broken not upon the sword but upon the pen, the pen that was held in that rancid -Mede- hand ( long live the Septim's Martin we miss you so much ) when it signed the White-Gold Concordant. It cannot be mended no matter how long a person labored, nor how strong they were. It's terribly sad to see, and damnit if it isn't almost heart breaking. That's part of the tragic beauty of the story though. I think in Arena we saw the beginning of the Empire, It's Growth in Hammerfell, we saw it's golden age in Morrowind, it's decline in Oblivion and now I think we're witnessing it's death. We've come full circle, and it's hard to watch a good friend die. I know that I grit my teeth and a good reason I held to the pro-imperial side of it for so long was simply because I couldn't let it die, not if I could help it, not on my watch, no no no... until I realized I was attempting to give CPR to someone who was already gone. It was only then, when I realized my good friend was dead, that I had to look up and see that not all hope is lost, that there are other people who need my help, that Skyrim can be saved at least, that the Thalmor do not yet control the world, that there is still hope ( Thank you Hammerfell for showing us that ) and while we lost a good friend when the Empire died, it does not mean we cannot move on and hold fast against the Evil of the Genocidal Dominion or Daedric Princes or anything else that should fall into our path. The journey of The Elder Scrolls is bigger that that we sometimes forget, that Tamriel isn't just a series of lands and cultures, kings and emperors, races and monsters, or Gods and Daedra. It's a land of Ideas, its' a land of Hero's, it's a land where one person can make a difference. So while my good friend the Empire is dead, The Elder Scrolls continue on, and will always continue on, and not even the Divines or the Princes can stop that ( and if you're a long time fan like most of us we all know they've tried pretty hard to ) so hope remains. The actions of the player politically? I side with the Stormcloaks. Ethically I stand against the Dominion. Morally I stand for the eternal laws of The Elder Scrolls. That's what I've had to embrace in the end, and bigmagy I love ya bro. Between us we've been able to dissect the most minute details of TES Lore and Legend, stories and personalities, battles, fabels, peoples and nations, history, philosophy, religion, culture, and struggles of all sorts. In one way that really does make us a pair of truly geeked out TES fans. On the other however, it makes us passionate individuals who delve into conflicts all the way to the hilt with only one real goal in mind. To come to the purest truth we can come to, and once we have it to keep on polishing it till it gleams. Thank you for your insights my friend, it truly is an amazing and thought provoking conversation ( wouldn't it be nice if the UN would get involved in these sort of conversations? The world would be a lot nicer place. ). Long Live Talos, All Hail the Memory of Martin Septim, and for the glory of The Elder Scrolls let all quake who stand in the way of the Hero's past and present.

Yes Toryyg really does cinch Ulfic's personality for me because as much as Ulfric wants to claim that young kid ( and guys he was young, maybe about 20, his wife is listed as 18 in the Wiki I read ) was a tool of the Empire, he simply wasn't. This poor guy was in awe of Ulfric, listened to his every word. He was about 90% there on seceding from the Empire -himself- and believed that Ulfric was riding into town to discuss it the day that Ulfric killed him, not come to challenge him. Really all Ulfric would have had to do was make the same case I've made about Skyrim ( over and over and over again now, god feels like forever ) to Torygg with about half the passion put into it that I have, and Skyrim would have gone into a unified revolt against the Empire, and I mean Unified. In Skyrim you may not agree with the high king, but once you bow the knee you follow him. It's just that simple, if the High King is on the throne the only way to get him off is one on one combat, not open revolt ( like there is now with the Stormcloaks, it's part of the problem that Ulfric ran into, he couldn't revolt with Torygg on the throne because no one would follow him since there was a High King who was alive ) so in the end while I still end up signing on with the Stormcloaks ( for all the reasons I've listed before ) I don't deny that Ulfric is a power hungry guy. Now I don't think he's as power hungry as some people think he is, don't get me wrong his Ego is the size of Skyrim itself, but not without reason. He's a brilliant General, a shrewd politician ( in the Nord sense at least ) and really does have the best interest of Skyrim at heart, even if he's going about it wrong. He simply believes he's the best man to lead Skyrim, and he might even be right. Torygg for all his enthusiasm I think would have ended up a puppet to Ulfric if Ulfric hadn't killed him and Skyrim had revolted, as I said before he damn near worshiped Ulfric. That's the tragedy there, a lot of blood could have been saved and created an Independent Skyrim, with that good hearted but relatively young High King still on his throne and Ulfric his chief adviser and war leader ( and the true power behind the throne ) but apparently that wasn't good enough for Ulfric, he wanted absolute control, and in a Nord sort of way, it makes sense that he would. Unlike the Imperials manipulation seems to really sit sour in a Nord's mouth, at best they distrust it, at worst they consider it a sign of weakness ( hence the whole conflict in the first place, Ulfric claims and many believe that the Empire was manipulating Torygg ). It replays over and over again in the story how one of the things they despise most about the " Mer " is that they're untrustworthy and manipulative ( which they are to a greater or lesser extent ). That's more or less the entire reasoning I've had from the beginning. The Empire needs Skyrim, Skyrim doesn't need the Empire, and sense the game is essentially about the fate of Skyrim, it makes sense to me to do what's best for Skyrim, even if it means the only way to do it is to side with Ulfric. If it was possible to take down Ulfric in one on one combat ( if you play a Nord anyway ) and assume control of Skyrim yourself, I'd definitely go that option. The Dragonborn would be a much better High King than Ulfric ever could possibly be. My standing evidence that Ulfric really does put Skyrim first, in his own way, revolves around the campaign if you side with the Empire. After Ulfric's dead and you travel to Sovengarde you meet Ulfric's ghost and his Ghost talks only about Skyrim, mourning it's fate, and begging you to save it. Even in death and failure, Ulfric's main concern is his country. Whatever else he is, he -is- a patriot. On a side note, has it occurred to anyone else that we've put way way way more thought into all of this than probably the writers of the game did?

I'm not quite sure I can agree with your reasoning but only for one moment ( I've spent pages upon pages of debate on this thread already ) but here it is. The Markath Incident was this, when Ulfric took the city he killed every single member of the Rebel forces ( or High Rock ones, whoever they were ) that took Markath + their Collaborators. He treated them very harshly because they had invaded a taken a city ( and by the way was under the empire to take it back, but that's not really my point ). In the same fashion, during the Battle of the Ring, when the Empire took back another Imperial city taken by invading forces ( The Imperial City ) they slaughtered every enemy in the city + their collaborators. What's the difference? Except of course that in Markath hundreds were granted no quarter, and in The Battle of the Ring, tens of thousands were. If you don't take the number into account ( I don't if the policy of invaders taking imperial cities is no quarter, no mercy, I can respect that ) then Ulfric and TMII ( Titus Mede the 2nd, The Emperor ) behaved exactly the same. So the Markath incident really shouldn't be a deciding factor on who to join. When facing an enemy both Ulfric and the Emperor are equally ruthless and merciless.

I'll stand with the Stormcloaks but damnit if this hasn't been one hell of a good arguement. Everything I believe is so damn hard to come by, in the end it's all about the Thalmor, and honestly I'd side with the devil himself if it would kill those pointy eared bastards. Well I think I'll lay off this a bit as well, whoever it is that comes out on top, I want the Thalmor destroyed, that's my end all decision, and I'll side with whoever I see do it best. Damnit if it isn't a hard decision though.

I still maintain that the Empire depends entirely on whether or not they can bring Hammerfell back into the fold. I still see no reason that Skyrim couldn't duplicate Hammerfell's success, however you both are right in that it would leave damage Skyrim badly, the question really is " What part of the Empire -isn't- damaged already. I already mentioned the loss of the Legions, that's a huge problem. Skyrim under Ulfric could be better, or could be much worse. As far as Jarls acting against the High King, that just doesn't happen with the Nords. Once a High King is High King, that's the end of the matter. It's only when there -is- no High King that things fall apart. That's just tradition for the Nords, no matter how much they might dislike Ulfric, once that crown is on his head, Skyrim is unified for better or worse, and Ulfric -is- a fighter. He may be a lousy king but he's an outstanding General ( even TMII said so ) so as far as that goes, when it comes to war, he can give the best Skyrim's got against the Thalmor. The Empire is spent though, it just simply cannot cover all it's territory with the troops it has. It's simply impossible. Hammerfell breaking away pretty much encouraged every other province to break away, and TMII gave them even more of an excuse. The territory lost since the ending of the Third age astounds me, but that's history and Skyrim is the present. Nothing I've seen or read suggest that the Empire can survive with or without Skyrim, and it's actions in the last 100 years made me decide that honestly, it shouldn't. Even before TMII the Mede line of Emperors were horrible. Long live the Septim's but their legacy is gone. As I said before, may the 9 divines watch over you Martin, you were the embodiment of what an Emperor should be, no matter how short your reign. That's all the response I can give right now, it's late and I'm tired. This is a fun debate, but I still have to side with Stormcloak's because I still believe that they're what's best for Skyrim, and I'm siding with Skyrim as a region this time, the Mede's made me give up on The Empire, and that's tragic, but all good things come to an end. If only the Septim's had survived, but we cannot bring them back, and without them The Empire is gone. I've made my point on Talos before too, and I don't think that that can be defended. The Mede Dynasty ruined what was once a glorious and successful union, but it's gone now, and I have to side with what I think is best for the name of the game. If TES V carries the name Skyrim, the what's best for Skyrim is what I'll do. I do truly wish that Torygg hadn't died, in many ways what I've read about him, he reminded me of Martin. Ulfric's ambition killed him, but we work with what we have, and Ulfric is all Skyrim's got, and it's best chance at survival, for all the reason's I've mentioned.

Well, what you say is at least partially true, even in Solitude they admit that Torygg had zero chance, even from the beginning, he was too young and too inexperienced but when Ulfric called the challenge it was too late. Torygg had thought Ulfric was coming there to discuss secession, something which Torygg himself was seriously considering but Ulfric demands challenge first thing. Even sword to sword Ulfic most likely would have defeated Torygg as he was a seasoned warrior and Torygg was not ( but wanted to be ). It's quite likely that Ulfric's ambition is what caused him to do this, or a mistaken belief that Torygg would never rise against the empire. I personally think that this was Ulfric's greatest failing in seeking Skyrim's independence and his greatest weakness as a man. Torygg was a good man and a good high king, and likely would have been able to unify Skyrim against the Empire, thus accomplishing what I already have said needs to happen, Skyrim Independence. So I agree, Ulfric is not the best man to be High King. If I could choose anyone at all that could be High King -and- would toss the Empire out of Skyrim I would have chosen Balgruuf or Vignar Gray-mane. Both would have been better than Ulfric. The game doesn't let you make that choice though. You're only left with 2 choices. Ulfric or The Empire. I choose Ulfric simply because of the Thalmor. I still do not think that The Empire can win against the Thalmor, I simply don't. The Numbers aren't there, and unless they somehow bring Hammerfell back into the fold they aren't going to make it. Now if it were possible to bring Hammerfell back into the Empire, I'd simply follow the line that kills TMII -and- Ulfric, however that's simply not possible. There is no option that brings Hammerfell back ( which is a pity ). Without Hammerfell the numbers simply aren't there for The Empire to stand, there is too much ground to cover and too few soldiers to do it with. As far as Highrock goes, what you need to do is research the Forsworn, and the attempt at High Rock regaining Malkath and attempting to form an independent Kingdom. When the Empire let this fall ( again this is Ulfric's fault I don't deny it ) the Thalmor stepped in. High Rock, which was angered at the Empire's lack of ability to protect native Bretons in favor of letting the Nords do what they did, started secretly allowing the Thalmor to set up bases in High Rock and to supply the Forsworn. As far as Orismmer ( however you spell it ) goes, at the end of the day they'll side with whoever will keep them from being destroyed again. Honestly for the Orcs sake, if they could, they'd side with the Thalmor. The Elves however would just attempt to wipe them out without even considering an alliance, and we all know this, the Orcs are judged too quickly by everyone and the Thalmor are what they are, destroyers of anything without a " mer " in it's name. The Bretons are the exception because they have Elven Blood in their veins. I imagine the Thalmor look at them something like half-breeds that were unfortunate enough to be merged with the inferior blood of men. I'm not sure this makes the Bretons safe from the Thalmor, but the Thalmor even let the Khajiit in, so who knows. I know Ulfric is literally the lesser of two evils. I don't think he should have killed Torygg, and I think he did it because of his own ambitions. I think the idea that Torygg was an Imperial puppet are grossly exaggerated ( hell his own wife wants you to leave his ashes at a shrine of Talos, even she openly defiles the Thalmor ) and I still think all my analogies about what The Empire did are sound and well thought out. If you want to come down to personalities, I -can't- side with anyone who makes deals with the Thalmor, and I -can't- go along any course that leaves them with anything less than a full fledged war on their hands. You can kill TMII in the game, and honestly that makes me feel a good deal better about many things when I do ( which I've always done, no matter which side I've played on ) It's just not enough to guarantee a renewal of the war with the Thalmor, and even if the Empire did, I listed the numbers for you, they lack the ability too. Things were no where near as dire when the White-Gold Concordant was signed as it is now, I just don't see how the Empire stands a chance, no matter what happens, now that Hammerfell is gone. TMII just screwed up too bad and the Empire, as far as I can see is doomed because of it. I truly hate that fact, I really do. Personally if the Dragonborn could take the throne, make an alliance with Hammerfell to have them rejoin the Empire in exchange for a total war with guarantee of no treaty signed against the Thalmor, that would be my solution. If I could make Balgruuf High King and then take Rikke ( the second in command of the 6th Legion ) and make her Empress with the same offer made to Hammerfell, I'd do that too. It's frustrating to me that I can't do any of that, because honestly I don't like Ulfric, I don't think he'd be a good High King, but unless something happens that brings war to the Thalmor I'm simply unable to side with the Empire. The bigger picture for me always revolves around the Thalmor. Before really looking at it from a different view I always used to play a Dark Elf assassin, the Role Playing element in all of this was an easy one for me in that the Dunmer are scattered and any that were left would need employ somewhere, and who pays better than the Empire? So I'd go Empire, even though I'd end up killing TMII, for the simple reason that killing both TMII -and- Ulfric Stormcloak pretty much would make you the greatest assassin of the age. He was kinda uncaring about the who war in general, or the Empire in particular. Morrowind was gone, so for the Dunmer the story is pretty much over. I played once through as a Wood Elf along similar lines, playing for the Empire in the hopes that they would free Valenwood ( It's for damn sure that Ulfric won't ). I also played through as an Imperial, who I roleplayed as a former Imperial Legionairre that had been wounded during the march south and left on the border of Falkerth ( and unfortunately mistaken for a Renegade ). As I may have mentioned, before my current game I had -never- joined the Stormcloaks, simply because in every previous game the Hero had fought to preserve the Empire. TMII and the White-Gold Concordant changed all that, once I started researching it. Reading about the Mede House added even more too it. In the big picture I just can't picture an Empire that can withstand the Thalmor, and I can't support an Empire under the house of Mede ( I wonder if TMII has any heirs, if he didn't that might lean me more towards the Imperial side, probably not enough to matter, but it would make killing his ass a whole lot more satisfying ). In a perfect world, Torygg would still be King, Ulfric and Balgruuf ( I know they hate each other ) could advise him. ( the poor boy was still very young, and I do hate what Ulfric did to him. He was on the verge of declaring Skyrim independent himself ) and there would be no division in Skyrim. They do listen to their High King before any Emperor, and if the Emperor attempted to take Torygg down you'd have more than a full fledged rebellion in Skyrim, you'd have a war that would spill over into Cyrodill to crush the Empire for even an attempt ( if they were successful then the Imperials would wish the Thalmor had finished them off ) to capture or kill Torygg. However while some argue whether it was a fair fight because of the use of the voice, no one really argues that it would have been " fair " even with just Swords, almost everyone you meet who will talk about it realistically, acknowledges that Ulfric would have killed Torygg either way. As you said, using the voice was to make a point. It's a really crappy situation the player is put into, and I personally am not willing to put the fate of Skyrim into a " hope " that the Empire will do what it was supposed to do in the beginning, fight it out to the end with the Thalmor. It's not a question whether Ulfric will, he will, in fact if he hopes to stay in power he -must- fight it out to the end with them. If he doesn't then he loses all support, because the majority of his followers are fighting not just for him, but to remove the Thalmor from Skyrim if not from the world entirely. The Empire simply doesn't take this approach. I can't as a player support anything less than a war against the Thalmor, and I can't take the chance that the Empire will ever do what it should have done in the first place. The Thalmor are the crux of all this, not Uflric or The Empire. The Empire under TMII followed a horrible plan, without him will they change? It's impossible to know. Even if they did change without Hammerfell the odds are grim at best. I never said that Ulfric was the best choice, I just know he's a fighter, and that's what I want as a player, a fighter. I honestly wish I -knew- that with TMII dead the war between the Empire and the Thalmor would resume. I really do, if I did then I'd put Ulfric down like a dog. I don't know that so as a player I can't take the risk. It's as simple as that.

I don't see how my analogy is flawed. Let's go through it step by step. 1) Britain was an Empire the same as " The Empire " and drew troops from many countries before the Empire disbanded. Including but not limited too the modern nations of India, Burma, and several African Nations. By your logic all of those nations should have remained part of the Empire instead of exerting their independence. 2) No the Thalmor are not the Nazi's but they are fighting to destroy what they consider an " inferior race " much as Hitler did with the Jews. He didn't consider them human, so he sought to iradicate them 3) In my Hypothetical case, if Britain had decided to outlaw the Scottish Presbyterian Church ( an analogy for Talos ) and allow the SS ( an analogy of the Thalmor in Skyrim ) the right to police Scotland and arrest without warrant or proof any Scot that practiced Scottish Presbyterianism as a trade for the Nazi's stopping the bombing of Britain during World War 2 then they would have behaved to a greater or lesser extent exactly like The Empire has done. By your logic, if applied to a modern setting, choice 3 would seem to be the desired choice. My point was that Churchill rejected any concession whatsoever and as I quoted devoted himself and his nation to " fight to the end ". This was his choice, and I see very little difference between The Empire of Cyrodil and the British Empire as far as basic makeup, traditions, customs, or values. The only difference was in Leadership, TMII decided to cave, Churchill decided not too. Now the question remains, was it the best choice for Churchill to decide not to cave, and by comparison for The Empire not to cave. I argue no, it is never right to give in to Tyranny of any form, you do not compromise with your enemies, as it only makes them grow stronger. It cost the Empire Hammerfell and caused an uprising in Skyrim as a result of his decision to cave. The correct choice would have been to continue the fight. To any end. Simply because it was the correct choice to make. As far as your assertion of 20 legions go, this is not the case, not anymore, and can be found in the wiki's floating around the net. In the days of Uriel Septim there were indeed 20 Legions, 8 from Skyrim, 6 from Hammerfell, and 6 from Cyrodill the rest made up of other parts of the Empire, as well as auxillaries made up of quasi-indepent parts of the Empire such as Valenwood and Morrowind. The total Strength of the Empire at that time could be counted at about 25 legions in total strength, 20 of which were armed in the Imperial Style, 2 Armies from Valenwood, and 3 Armies, one for each of the Major Houses, from Morrowind, that fought in the Mer style of fighting. Magic, Arrows, and One-handed swords. It's also hinted that Cavalry Auxillaries were available from many places in the Empire however it's not specific. At the time of the Great War that number had been reduced to 12, 4 from Cyrodill, 4 from Skyrim, 4 from Hammefell. Numbered from I to XII in that order. 1-4 being from Cyrodil, 4-8 from Skyrim 8-12 from Hammerfell. During the Great War the Cyrodil Legions were decimated, the 3rd Legion was completely wiped out at the Imperial City, and I mean a total loss. The 4th was pinned down at Anvil, and the 1st and 2nd Broke the ring with TMII. the 4th through 8th Legions marched south from Skyrim, leaving behind the Stormcloaks to defend Skyrim, the 8-12 left Hammerfell leaving the Crowns and their Al'kir warriors to defend Hammerfell and surrounded the Imperial City from the North, East, and West. TMII attacked the city with the 1st and 2nd Legions, took the walls and slaughtered the Thalmor Army. So that's where we find ourselves today. Now lets talk about losses. the 8th through 12th Legions no longer exist. When TMII threw Hammerfell to the wolves, those legions mutinied and returned home to fight another 5 years and successfully defeat the Thalmor, throwing them out of Hammerfell. The 5th - 8th Legions lost half their strength when half of all Nords deserted to follow Ulfric's standard ( this is listed too, the Stormcloaks aren't just a milita anymore, they've been reinforced by professional fighters, former members of the Skyrim Legions. So what does that leave the Empire. The 3rd Legion was utterly destroyed, and likely hasn't been reformed as anything like the fighting force it was, at best it's a totally green unit that has seen little if any combat. The 1st and 2nd between the breakthrough and the recapture of the Imperial City could be counted on to field perhaps 50% strength, if that. The 4th Legion is more or less in tact, but remains the only completely Cyrodillian Legion left to the Empire to defend the Imperial City. The 5th and 6th Skyrim Legions are likely a combination of those Nords who stayed loyal, and probably came from any of the 4 Skyrim Legions that remained, reforming the 4 Legions into 2. Of those the 5th is most likely staying in Cyrodil with the 4th to Reinforce defenses around the Imperial City. Leaving the 6th as the only Nord Legion left to the Empire that's in anyway intact. The Dunmer Houses are nearly Obliterated, don't expect help from there. Valenwood is in the Hands of the Thalmor, don't expect help from there. The Khajiit Kingdoms are in the Hands of the Thalmor. High Reach and Orisimmer are cut off by Land with Skyrim on One side and Hammerfell on the other, and the Thalmor already have bases there, as they were welcomed by the Half Elven Breton's that inhabit the area. High Rock is Imperial on a map only. Essentially if you combined the 1st and 2nd into an Entire Legion, you'd only have 4 Real Legions Left. The combined First and Second, the 4th, the 5th and the 6th. The fact that the 6th is in Skyrim is basically because that's the only unit that could be spared. Even if the 3rd had been reformed and the First and Second Remanned. You'd still only have a total of 6 Legions, 2 of which are half new recruits, one of which is Entirely new recruits. And the Thalmor ready to pounce. The 6th is there because simply, that's all that can be spared. All of this is recorded as canon. So you've got your facts wrong about the strength of the Empire, and I reinforce my analogy between TMII and Churchill, and their leadership styles. Britain was woefully understrength at the start of the Campaign, they had lost a tremendous amount of their strength at Dunkirk, they were outnumbered in the Air, in Tanks, in Artillary ( assume all those as magic. Air, Artillary and Tanks, they served essentially the same purpose ) and yet Churchill chose to fight, to the end if need be, rather than deal with Hitler. I don't see much difference between the Thalmor wishing to destroy humanity which they see as Inferior, and Hitler wishing to destroy the Jews that he felt were inferior. Both considered the latter in each case to be an inferior race. If Britain had followed your Logic, they would have put Ghandi's head on a stick ( Ghandi wasn't violent and Ulfric is but both were leaders of independence. I doubt severely that they would have made a distinction between violent and non-violent, considering they were willing to execute a complete stranger at the beginning of the game, The Empire I mean ). I stand by my analogy, and I stand by my reasoning, and I stand by my opinion that you are wrong. I also ask you this question, if Hammerfell by itself can defeat the Thalmor, why exactly can't Skyrim? Is there something about the Nords that is inferior to the Redguards that I'm missing? One thing is very certain though, the Empire cannot defeat them, and that isn't because they lack the men or the resources or anything else. It's simply because they lack the will. That was made obvious when he caved to the demands of the Thalmor in the White-Gold Concordant. It literally was the last chance the Empire had to fight it out to the end with the Thalmor, the canon says the Thalmor were just as weak as the Empire at the time of the signing ( or the Thalmor never would have signed it ) and so it was a coin flip on who would have come out on top. Now however the Thalmor grow stronger every day. While they failed in Hammerfell they've reinforced Valenwood, have bases in High Reach and Northern Skyrim, and the right to literally wander the Empire at will in the name of rooting out Talos worshippers ( and if they happen to be scouting the entire Empire in the process... well of course the can be trusted not to breath a word of that back to their Government *sarcasm* ). The Empire has grown weaker. They lost a third of their remaining Legions when Hammerfell seceded, and with the unrest in Skyrim they lost a quarter of what they had left. Even under the best of Circumstances, say the Empire Wins in Skyrim, that doesn't get the Legions it lost in Skyrim back. What has happened is that 2 Legions will be gone, no matter what, either disbanded in protest or joined Ulfric's cause and died fighting the Empire. The 6th Legion will be damaged if not decimated in the War, weakening it futher, and the immediate result will be what? The Nords won't be fielding men for the Empire any time soon. The war will have ravaged the land, crops will need to be regrown, homes rebuilt, wounds healed, and Anarchy turned to order ( which ties up the 6th even longer, if not permanently requiring it's stationing there in order to remain order ). Leaving 5 Legions only. The White-Gold Concordant reduced the number of Legions the Empire can field from 12 to 6, with a third of those being green troops, and one entire Legion stationed in Skyrim for the forseeable future. No, the decision TMII made not to fight it out was the wrong one, and has effectively killed the Empire. Just the sheer size of the border needed to guard against Valenwood alone would take up 2 if not 3 Legions, and even then a few local Cities would be left to fend for themselves. These Legions would have to face a Thalmor Army at least as large as the one that broke through the first time, and required recalling the Hammerfell and Skyrim Legions in order to save the Empire. There are no more reserves this time, and if the Thalmor want, they can take the Imperial City any time they want. Skyrim's rebellion had little to do with this, as losing a third of the Legions to Hammerfell was the real beginning of the downfall, losing another 2 to Skyrim didn't matter very much, as without Hammerfell the Empire already had too little strength to resist the Thalmor. However the Thalmor are only a true danger to Cyrodil, Hammerfell has shown it can resist the Thalmor Unassisted, Skyrim can do the same, and has a better chance at it than the Empire does, since any attempt at preserving what's left of the Empire would only benefit Cyrodil, not Skyrim. To block any Thalmor attack would leave Skyrim Defenseless regarding on Local guards to stop a Thalmor Strike from the High Reaches. Simply put, Skyrim's best interests are best served by Independence, the Empire's best interest is served in Skyrim staying part of the Empire, however that would be to the detriment of Skyrim. If the player truly wants to save Skyrim, they'll side with the Stormcloaks, if they wish to save the Empire, at Skyrim's detriment, they'll join the Empire. I've given all the reasons I can that the Empire isn't worth saving in my opinion, and I've backed them up with all the facts I've scoured from across Cannon wiki's. It's as simple as this, Skyrim will fall if the Empire wins, Skyrim -may- survive if the Stormcloaks win, and that saving depends heavily on whether they can duplicate what Hammerfell did, and I can't think of a reason they can't. It's a coin flip to be sure whether the Stormcloaks can save Skyrim from the Thalmor, but it's a guarantee that Skyrim itself will not be able to stand if the Empire wins. That to me is just a fact. The real question comes down to which is more important, Skyrim or Cyrodil ( let's not even call it the Empire anymore, the Empire -is- just Skyrim and Cyrodil, nothing else remains that is of consequence ) so basically the player chooses between a weak leader who bleeds his people dry, and makes deals with Genocidal maniacs in TMII, or they side with a ego-centric but patriotic, quasi-rascist, nord in Ulfric. It's the player's choice, but the larger picture leads to who deserves to exist. Skyrim or Cyrodil. I choose Skyrim based on the actions of TMII and my disgust with him. At least Ulfric has the guts to fight for his country, to the end if need be. That's the point, if it's worth fighting for it's worth fighting for to the end, and Ulfric represents that, not TMII, not Tullius, and Certainly not The Empire. Analogies all made and set straight, I see no problems with them. Reasons set straight, I feel that they are all valid and well reasoned, history set straight, I've cited where to find the information I've given. As far as I know I haven't missed anything. Stormcloaks are Skyrim's best chance, if you want Skyrim to survive pick them, if you care more about the survival of Cyrodil ( and with it the " Empire " which is just Cyrodil and Skyrim at this point, it's only an Empire if they hold onto Skyrim ) then side with the Imperials. That's just how the facts fall down, and the player can make their choice about who the better leader is, Ulfric or TMII, and which leader is most likely to protect the most people and drive the Thalmor from their lands. TMII has already let the people down once, and once is too many. It is my opinion, based on facts, that the Empire couldn't withstand a full Thalmor attack even if they win in Skyrim, but anything is possible I guess. It is also my opinion that the success that Hammerfell and the Redguards achieved against the Thalmor could be repeated in Skyrim, and I find it much more likely than any attempt the Empire could make at defeating them. I can think of no way in which Skyrim would be better off with the Empire, and I can think of plenty of ways that it couldn't. Bigger picture, for Skyrim, independence is the best option. That's the end decision the Dragon Born must make. To chance it with the Empire or to take what I think is the option more likely to succeed against the Thalmor and side with Skyrim Independence.

Agreed there, even though my Cherokee grandmother kinda screwed me up on Thanksgiving " We're celebrating what again? " she's say a lot. For me it's the day my mother-in-law cooks and I get to eat for free, that's good enough for me.

I didn't mean that the Imperials were the Nazi's I ment the Thalmor were, the Imperials were like a ficticious British Empire that gave in to the Nazi's and allowed them to let the SS collect people in their Empire. The " restore peace " method is very similar to the one Chamberlain ( the Prime Minster before ) did to the rest of Europe. As far as hatred of Lesser Races, take a good look at the UK at that time ( hell look at them now, as nice as a people as the British are there still is an inherent racism to their behavior and attitude that even an American such as myself noticed. When I was thre just prior to the invasion of Afghanistan a good many British had almost a " pity " on me because not only was I American, but Irish to boot ). While it's possible that Skyrim could turn fascist, I find it to be much less likely for a number of reasons, at least if they come out on top. For starters a Fascist country demands a lot of conformity, the power in Skyrim is pretty spread out. Any one of the Jarls could lead a rebellion against any leader at any time, and as the Empire has found out, it can get pretty crazy pretty fast. Second rascist or not, Skyrim has been the home of the Nords a very long time, even to this day in modern countries Minorities of nations that make up the majority of an area develop a dislike, distrust, or hatred towards people of other races. Again this is from experience, it took me a -very- long time to be accepted by my neighbors when I lived in a SW Atlanta neighborhood that was majority black when I was a kid. This isn't racism so much as it is voluntary segregation based on past grievances by the same racial group that lead to distrust. I will say that the minorities of Skyrim provide a convenient and closed minded outlet for a people under oppression, but the attitude is far from fascist. Ulfric, no matter how much you help him, can simply never rule without consent. The Nords are too independent a people to allow that to happen. Neither are the Imperials though, they are as I ment before, like the British Empire in WWII. The difference between the two is that the British had given in to, and bargained with, Nazi Germany instead of fighting them, then it would have been wrong. The Empire has bargained with, and given in to the Thalmor, down to the point of restricting religion ( my analogy was what if the British Empire had outlawed Scottish Presbyterianism ) and allowed their subjects to be stolen from their homes with little if any evidence ( my analogy was the SS in Scotland doing the same ) and then when a Scottish leader killed the head of Scotland because of a perceived collaboration with the UK that had allowed the above to happen, regardless if it was true or not ( plenty of people in Occupied France were killed by the French Resistance with little evidence ) the UK sent it's Army to pacify Scotland. Would anyone expect Scotland not to rebel at that point? I don't think they would, I don't think the argument could effectively be made that Scotland would be wrong to rebel, and I think most people would be encouraged if they did, and honestly the Scot's would follow -anyone- who could defeat the British Army and throw the SS out of Scotland, even if as I said slightly graphically, he wore people's faces as a hat, and relative to a guy who cuts off people's faces and wears them as a hat, Ulfric isn't that bad. So my analogy works like this. The Nazi's ( Thalmor ) Invade the Empire, the UK Fight and suffer a serious defeat ( Battle of Dunkirk ) leaving their military largely exhausted and without much in the ways of the necessities to fight a protracted war, even on their own soil, and then proceed to the bargain with the Nazi's ( fictitious Britain ) instead of fighting them ( Real Britian ) and in that bargaining they agree to outlaw Scottish Presbyterianism and allow the SS to arrest anyone in Scotland who practices it ( fictitious Britain ) and then invade Scotland when Scotland rebels ( fictitious Britain ). So Scotland shouldn't rebel and attempt to break away from the UK under those circumstances? They shouldn't pick anyone they can find to lead the secession? I'm still having problems with anyone being able to argue ( my degree is in Military History and I'm supposed to be unbiased but even I can't think of one good sound moral reason that Scotland in this fictitious scenario shouldn't rebel ) that Scotland shouldn't rebel. The Imperials aren't as bad as the Thalmor, not by a long shot, however they lost the right to rule the second they went to the bargaining table with them, just as any Government in Britain would have lost the right to rule the second they had gone to the bargaining table with the Nazi's during the war, when it looked like they might lose ( hell they -did- lose the right to rule just by having bargained with the Nazi's -before- Britain was at war with them, when Neville Champerlain was Prime Minister ). Applying this analogy of history I'd take a possibly fascist like Skyrim over a certainly Thalmor collaborating Empire any day of the week. I'll take racism over genocide too. I mean I hate the KKK for example, I was a poor, Irish, Appalachian Catholic a good portion of my life, and none of those things made the clan my friend ( Appalachian is a mixture to some greater or less to degree of primarily Scot's or Irish with the Native Cherokee people's of the NW Counties of the state of Georgia and Southern Tenessee ), but while they murdered a few people who were black ( or jewish ) over the years I grew up in, I don't recall them showing up in buses to take them away at gun point ( say the way the US Government does it now... oops got political ). There are plenty of people, regardless of what they think about black people, in Georgia who would never have stood for that. Just like there are plenty of Nords in Skyrim who might hate Dunmer for example, but would balk at putting long lines of them on the way to the chopping block, something btw the Empire -is- willing to do, as you witness at the beginning of the story. I've not yet figured out why that isn't taken more seriously by some people. Sure it was all a mistake, and at the end you are told as much with kinda a halfway apology for in the whole " well it was a easy mistake to make you know, I mean come on we're fighting a rebellion here, better to chop off heads now than risk that they are innocent ". I mean as the player you don't have to take that personally, and perhaps shouldn't. Hadvar is a good guy and means well and is truly sorry that you have to go to the block and all that, but it never occurs to him, or to a lot people both in and outside the game, that the very fact that it could happen -at all- is reflection of general Imperial attitudes. They sent you to the block without seeing it as anything more than a necessary evil, and then expected you to understand that " Yea it was your life we nearly took, but you know, it was a nasty circumstance and a necessary evil ". I for one am not in favor of evil, necessary or not. Especially when it defies all generally accepted steps and procedures to make sure that justice is done. It's the lack of a process of justice of the thing, not the fact it was done to my character personally. So to sum up, the Imperials as an analogy, are a Britain that Collaborated with the Nazi's and allowed the SS to take Scottish Citizen into custody to be shipped off without warning for practicing Scottish Presbyterianism and then when the Scots rebel, the British Army invades Scotland. Hell killing Ulfric is somewhat similar to the way the killed William Wallace in Braveheart ( the movie ) and consider that the real William Wallace was even a tougher, crueler son-of-a-*censored* than the one in the movie ( he used to make his belts out of the woven skins of the men he killed, no lie, look it up ). If history looked like that today, I won't say we'd be speaking German here, but the majority of Europe would be, and we in the US be pretty isolated. I am trying to see flaws in my historical analogies, the famous " what if " game that historians play, and I'm running out of places to poke holes in it. I was for the Stormcloaks for in game lore before I wrote all this down, now I'm for them because I'm truly horrified by what I've put into thought here by reason of Analogy. If you put the correlating facts of the Skyrim uprising, into a factual real life based context ( the whole Britian making a deal with the Nazi's in order to end the war, by oppressing the religious freedom of Scotland allowing the SS to take Scottish citizens away on flimsy evidence just to maintain the piece ) you end up with an Empire that is beyond any redeeming quality in my mind. It offends everything I hold dear, and I didn't even know it. I think I'm a Stormcloak for life now... Give us Freedom or Give us Sovngarde indeed... So yea.. I want to hear the pro bargaining with Nazi's and allowing their death squads to take away your citizens for practicing their native religion. I'd love to hear it done well, I was head of my debate team in high school and I would have quit the team rather than try to defend that one, not even on moral grounds, I'd do it for the same reason I wouldn't jump off a building trying to fly. The odds of succeeding seem very low. Oh yea, don't date the ugly chick with the crown, and remember remember the 5th of November...

There's quite a bit of truth to all that, but to me it always did come down to a " Can the Empire do it? " vs " Can an Independent Skyrim do it " as far as getting rid of the Thalmor. Either way it rides almost solely on Skyrim whether as an Imperial Province or as an Indpendent nation. For myself I think an Empire that can't stand on it's own two feet isn't worth swearing an oath to an Empire that depends on others to do the fighting for them. You'll notice throughout the campaign the Nords are mostly fighting themselves, and either way they will end up united fighting the Thalmor. The question really rides on who's banner the war will be fought under. Considering the Imperial record of late, and your own statement about being " used " I agree. However I tend to put the good of the many against the good of the few. If you don't fight for an independent Skyrim, then Skyrim itself will be used by the Empire. If you succeed in an independent Skyrim then at least it has a chance to sort out it's own destiny. As far as swearing allegiance to Ulfric goes, really it's just sort of standard practice. You're essentially becoming a housecarl of sorts. Ulfric himself is temporary, and for all his faults, would still die for Skyrim ( as is shown if you fight your way through the Imperial Campaign, he dies with honor, and you'll notice even at the end Tullius hasn't bothered to learn enough Nord culture to remember Nord tradition for the afterlife. Also when you travel to Sovengarde you'll meet Ulfric's spirit if he's dead. Even in death his primary concern is for Skyrim itself. ) Tullius on the other hand is very much concerned only with winning the war, and to do so he'll put the boot on the back of Skyrim's neck again ( as witnessed at his death if you play as a Stormcloak ) his only intention isn't the good of the people, but what the people provide the empire. He's simply there to beat Skyrim back into submission so that it'll continue doing what the Empire needs, namely serving it meekly. The question really comes down to whether or not that Skyrim needs the Empire. It doesn't at the end, that's shown clearly when you play through both campaigns. Only the Stormcloak one shows the Thalmor being driven out of Skyrim ( to one degree or another, it's shown most prominently if you take the middle path and attend the peace treaty scene in which you get bonus to Stormcloak faction just for making the Thalmor delegate leave the room ). The Empire on the other hand needs Skyrim, and badly. A bloody nasty war was fought with the Thalmor, one which the Empire more or less lost, and would have lost worst ( as I've pointed out ) without Nordic and Redguard Legions. Yet the Empire is willing to fight another nasty bloody war in Skyrim, against what it claims are it's own people, and this time it's a war of aggression. Skyrim didn't demand anything really out of the Empire, no massive insult the way the Thalmor did, albeit from an Imperial point of view they need Skyrim so couldn't just let them secede, but no attempt was ever made for a diplomatic solution, yet one was offered to the Thalmor despite monstrous atrocities. The " Emperor had no choice " excuse is so much BS. There is always a choice, fight it out to the bitter end if need be. If TMII had bothered to even consider this option there would be no problems in Skyrim, but he cared more about his own personal power than he did about his own subjects, especially in Skyrim and Hammerfell. If he had bothered to summon the courage to say " No, we will never surrender " in a Churchillian fashion " Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old. " The Thalmor are easily as evil as the Nazi's and Britain easily as weakened as the Empire, but the Empire could have fought on. " We shall never surrender " should have been the rallying cry, and yet despite the so called " enormous losses " that were suffered in the Great War, he's decided to send an entire legion to quell the Rebellion in Skyrim. This would be the equivalent of England instead of " We shall Never Surrender " looking at Hitler and going " All right, let's truce, and btw we'll give up all our Imperial Possessions, oh and we'll forbid the speaking of Scottish or Irish Gallic, the Wearing of Kilts, any name that marks a particular clan in Scotland or Ireland, the playing of bagpipes, the Highland Games, and the Scottish Presbyterian Church and forbid Catholicism in Ireland. " and then expect Scotland and Ireland not to rebel. On top of that then send the British Army to Occupy Scotland and Ireland, and send the SS to make sure anyone who practiced Catholicism or Scottish Presbyterianism was hauled away to a work camp never to be seen again by their family or friends. If you think all of the above makes any sense at all, then by all means go with the Imperials. I mean Churchill represented the height of British Imperial Standards which at that time had long past, but if a Government in the UK that he did not head had done that, the British Empire would have fallen apart quickly, despite having good men amongst the English populace. What's dead is dead, and Britain was as easily in as bad a spot as the Empire ( maybe worse ) at the time Churchill gave that speech. They had just evacuated Dunkirk, leaving behind most of their tanks and artillary, the Luftwaffe was bombing them daily. By all measurable reason Hitler was on the verge of invading the Island proper ( the fact he didn't isn't because he was unable, he just decided not to. Historians consider this one of his greatest historical blunders, right up there with the Invasion of Greece and the Declaration of war on the United States after Pearl Harbor. For those who didn't know Germany declared war on us after we declared war on Japan. They didn't have to, were under no treaty obligation too ( their treaty with Japan was mutual defense, the Japanese were the aggressors, Germany could have said " You started it, we've got our own problems, ever heard of Russia? We're smack dab in the middle of invading the largest country in the world ", but they did anyway ) At that point the Scottish would have embraced a man who wore people's faces as a hat if that person could defeat the British Army and throw the SS out of Scotland, and Ulfric isn't nearly that. So I say again, Stormcloaks, All TMII had to say was " We will never give you anything, we will never surrender, and we'll -never- bargain with you " and there would be no Stormcloak Rebellion and don't date the ugly chick with the crown. EDIT: Wow.. I just compared joining the Imperials as siding with Hitler... and the more I think about it. I'm right. Damn my Military History Degree.

In my mind the Imperials are betraying the Empire by outlawing Talos worship. Talos was, afterall, Tiber Septim, the founder of the Empire. Of course the current Imperial House is the Mede, and they wouldn't mind as bad if the Septim's went down, but considering every game before now you were helping out the Septim's, not the Mede's there is a distinction. Being an Imperial who's in favor of the Talos ban is not being an Imperial, it's being someone who's willing to throw away the greatest Emperor you ever had. Honestly they could have given away Skyrim entirely and not disgusted me more than the ban on Talos worship. It isn't a Nord God, it's the Father of the Empire. To give you an idea, can you imagine Imperial Rome ever Un-deifying Julius Caesar? They didn't even when they made the state religion Christianity ( They Sainted him, but same thing when you're switching from a poly-theistic to a mono-theistic ). They'd rather have watched the Empire crumble than to deny Caesar. I've said it before, without Caesar there is no Roman Empire. Without Tiber Septim ( Talos ) there is no Empire. The second the Mede's were willing to ban Talos worship, was the exact instance that the Empire died. Everything since then has been after-shocks, Hammerfell defeated the Thalmor on it's own, Skyrim can too, and for once the Imperials will have to take care of themselves. If they can. Always remember that when the Imperial City was sacked it was Redguards and Nords who marched to take it back, not Imperials. It was the Redguard and Nord Legions that left their home to save the Empire. They left their lands in the hands of militias ( the Al'kir in Hammerfell and the Stormcloaks in Skyrim ) to come to a land that wasn't technically their own to save a city that they weren't really welcome in ( Anyone else remember the way that Redguards and Nords were treated in Cyrodil in Oblivion? I sure do ). So what thanks did they get? 1) The Emperor tried to give half of hammerfell to the Thalmor, the Redguards said f*** off, seceded, fought another five years, and beat the Thalmor 2) The Emperor gave the Thalmor the right to Police the Empire ( especially Skyrim ) hauling off his subjects without appeal to Imperial Law 3) The Emperor banned the worship of the Founder of the Empire, and a Nord to boot. So essentially he was saved by two groups of people, who he immediately turned on when things got a little rough. The Mede's are a pathetic imitation of the greatness that the Septim's used to be. The Empire is dead, whether you side with the Imperials or the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor one the second that the Emperor turned his back on his subjects. What point is the Empire if it can't protect it's people, so people can side with the Imperials if they want, they can delude themselves into thinking that the Imperials can defeat the Thalmor if everyone just sticks together. Reality is that they can't. Not because they don't have the men, or the strategy, they don't have the will. They didn't have the will to tell the Thalmor to go blow it out their royal elven assholes, and they never will, not while the Mede's are in charge, and essentially sink the Empire itself into another civil war ( like the one that brought the Mede's to power in the first place ) which would suit me just fine honestly. The Redguards defeated the Thalmor by themselves, Skyrim could too, they both have done so before while fighting -for- the Empire, I don't see why they couldn't while fighting for themselves. Hell they could even create a military alliance to take on the Thalmor till they were destroyed, wouldn't hurt anything for them to team up for a bit, since between the two of them they're more than powerful enough so long as Cyrodil isn't holding them back and taking all their best warriors to use defending places other than Skyrim and Hammerfell. High Rock has more or less allied itself with the Thalmor anyway, which kinda puts the Orcs in a bad way, since they're a long way away from any Imperial help and the Nords, Redguards, and Bretons have all destroyed Orsimum at one point or another, and to get imperial help they'd either have to march through Hammerfell, Skyrim, or land ships at High Rock. All of which would involve a long trek through hostile waters or lands. The smartest thing for the Orcs to do would be to secede themselves, declare a sort of " neutrality " in the 15th century Swiss Sense, in that they'll export Mercenaries to either Hammerfell or to Skyrim so long as neither attacks Orsimum itself. Since it's equally beneficial to both Hammerfell and Skyrim to have access to Orcish Mercenaries, and that it would unify the Orcs and the other side, if one side broke the neutrality, it would be a win win for everyone, except of course the Bretons of High Rock. Hammerfell and Skyrim might as well sign a deal to split High Rock between themselves, that place hasn't been anything but trouble for either for 400 years, sounds harsh but it's true. Also secures the north which allows Skyrim to protect it's South from any Imperial Nonsense and it's East from Argonian and possibly Dunmer Aggression, goaded on by the Thalmor ( who have deep claws in both societies ) while at the same time freeing up Skyrim's rather impressive Navy ( read the wiki's ;) Skyrim and Hammerfell supply nearly all of the Imperial Navy. When Hammerfell seceded it took about half the Navy with it ), since Hammerfell simply cannot be ignored from it's position North of Valenwood and the Kingdoms that used to be Elswyr nor even that far from the Summerset Isles themselves, the Thalmor would be thrown on the defensive at sea, to the north... and to the south. When you look at the map it's sometimes easy to forget that High Rock and Skyrim are almost dead south of the Summerset Isles ( you have to remember that heading North from Skyrim crosses the map to the south of Summerset ) which leads to a whole nother set of problems for the Thalmor, ships from High Rock, Solitude, and Windhelm ports could easily destroy ports all along the Southern Isles, perhaps even blockade Alinor itself, and the Thalmor could do nothing about it without weakening it's Navy to the North, at which point they can pretty much be assured the Redguards will pounce. The Redguards are a people of long memory after all, hell the Crowns are one of the longest lived human institutions on the mainland ( hearkening back to the first days of the Redguards on Tamriel, and the Redguards were the first men to land on Tamriel ) and they're still around. You can bet they'll remember the burning and murder of surrendering troops of their southern ports at the beginning of the Great War. Ports along Valenwood would burn, and Redguard Naval vessels would attack any weakened naval positions north of Summerset Isles, conceivably they themselves blockading Alinor, and that's just the situation on Sea. Should Skyrim attack from the South at any time with just it's Navy, it gives the Redguards a more or less free hand to strike west into what's left of the Empire, or strike south into Valenwood, or both. Taking Northern Valenwood would take most of the ports of that Nation, leaving Thalmor troops without a means of supplies without invading Cyrodil again. That alone might be enough for the puppet Colovian Dynasty in Valenwood to be overthrown by the Bosmer, since they hate it almost as much as they hate the Empire for abandoning them in the first place. A negotiated peace ( perhaps something even as a territorial trade in exchange for Military support. Bosmer joining the fight against the Summerset Isles in exchange for their ports back, for trading purposes at the beginning of course ) plus thousands of Thalmor prisoners. The next step of course would be either a Nord, or a Redguard invasion of the Isles themselves, and both have more than enough reason to do so. Hate is a strong motivator and both hate them with a passion. All this could come to pass if just -one- of the two nations of either Skyrim or Hammerfell were to take the fight to the Thalmor with the other acting as they would almost certainly do. An organized offensive between the two would crush the Isles like a bear trap. So who needs the Imperials again? Likely after the Thalmor are made to pay ( and dearly ) by the people they wronged so horribly ( the Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards ) the three groups would turn home and begin their own expansions. Hammerfell likely into Cyrodil, Skyrim into Argonia, and Valenwood into Elswyr. All territories that the three races have been eyeing for some time. Of course this is hard luck on the Imperials, Khajit, Argonians, and Dunmer ( It wouldn't be Hard luck on the Altmer, they had it coming ) but honestly all those groups have done the first three very wrong in the past. It shouldn't really surprise them that they get paid back now. The Dunmer might even make their own play to take, and then hold onto and found, a new Dunmer country in eastern Cyrodil. Which considering how they play it diplomatically, might succeed. Reorganize the Council with more progressive houses. Offer Military alliances to the new " big three " and attack Argonia and Cyrodil, both of which the Dunmer have truly been betrayed by, and dishonorably so ( and the Dunmer are big on their honor, enough so that even Ulfric respect their sense of Honor, if not them themselves ). That could secure them a place, though not a huge one, in a Tamriel future. The truly doomed races, at least if you play as a Stormcloaks, are the Bretons, High Elves, Imperials, Argonians, and Khajit. The only one of which I truly feel sorry for is the Khajit, who aside from some relatively small wars with Valenwood, really haven't bothered anyone too terribly much. The others really really have it coming ( some might argue the Bretons don't, look em up, they're almost as bad as the High Elves, and worse than the Imperials ) The map would get Carved up anyway, with perhaps Cyrodil shrunk to just the Imperial city and it's outlying farmland. I doubt any group would truly seize the city as to do so would be to declare themselves de facto the new Emperor of Tamriel, something that would almost inevitably lead to a massive war between the Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards. Something none of those three races wants, and honestly none of those races are greedy enough to want it. Greed isn't really in the nature of any of those groups, not saying they won't bargain for what they can get, but the reality is that force of arms for them is more a matter of honor ( and payback ) than for conquest overall, at least in this point of their history. Essentially what I'm saying is that supporting the Empire in TES V is a little bit like making an ugly girl prom queen ( I didn't go to prom, no idea what happens to make a prom queen, so don't hate on me too much for that statement ) it makes no sense. Everyone knows the tiara doesn't make her pretty, it's just an ugly girl with a crown on her head, and that's the Empire in this day and age. An ugly girl with a crown on it's head. Don't date the crowned ugly girl, date the poor girl with the cool accent, who likes video games and skips prom to play World of Warcraft. You can guarantee that she'll have at least looked up some interesting bedroom techniques online at one point or another. ( Gamer girls are so hot, they get an automatic +1 on attraction factor just for knowing what TES stands for ). That's my opinion anyway. The sum up again is: Don't date the crowned ugly chick.

Goes back to my question of " Are you judging people by the standards of your time and place vs. there's. " If you play the other TES games you realize Cyrodil is just as bad if not worse. Morrowind was definitely worse. Tullius may be the exception to Imperial rule, and I won't deny he's a good general and a pragmatist, but he is also tunnel visioned, and seems to believe that somehow the fighting will stop. It will never stop so long as the Thalmor are allowed any place upon Tamriel, and the Empire is dead with Titus Mede II on the throne. It's probably dead no matter what, so essentially what Tullius is doing is fighting a war that the Empire ( or what's left of it, essentially just Cyrodil ) can't afford. His battles in Skyrim will accomplish nothing in the end except make Cyrodil weaker, and it's a matter of time till High Rock breaks away ( The Thalmor are so deeply entrenched there that it's Imperial Territory pretty much just on the map ). Ulfric is no Saint, by any means, but he does care about Skyrim and his race, and really he cares more about it than he cares about himself. Tullius cares about an idea, nothing more, and he'll die in battle one way or another. The " Empire " is dead, and there is nothing but war in their future, and eventually my guess is that the Thalmor will be the one's he finally dies too. I've played through the campaign 7 times now, 6 times as an Imperial, and frankly, I knew at the end of the first six that no matter what, I had fought a lost cause. Win or Lose, no Nordic Legions will ever be what they once were. Nords won't support the Empire as they have in the past, and the Nords were really the Empire's last place to draw troops from. The Imperials can't win against the Thalmor with just their own Imperial Soldiers. With Skyrim in Chaos, and it still is long after the War is over if you're an Imperial, they simply cannot field Nordic troops the way they once could. There is no winning for the Imperials, however there is for the Nords. The only Nation of the Empire that -can't- resist a full on invasion by the Thalmor is Cyrodil itself. Hammerfell managed it, so could Skyrim, it's only Cyrodil that has lost too much in power, prestige, etc to fail to resist. As they failed to resist without the Redguard and Nord Legions during the Great War that led to this mess. Tullius may be a pragmatist, but he's no humanitarian. He wants Skyrim because Skyrim equals more men and women for the Legion, and without Skyrim Cyrodil has no chance. All he sees is power, not people, and he's willing to throw people's lives away just to protect his home. If you want ultimate Rascism look at the way the Imperial Steward mocks even Jarl Balgruuf at the beginning, look at how Tullius treats his own second in command because she's a Nord. He doesn't see the Nords as anything more than power he can project, they are barely human in his eyes, and he'll throw their lives away for the sake of the " Empire " the Imperials are the ultimate racists here, as you said they are pragmatists. Meaning they'll mock, but still " support " any race that will help give them more power. Just read the history from the end of the Oblivion Crisis till The Great War and you'll see what I mean. Ulfric may be openly racist against Dunmer, and against Argonians. His supporters may be old men, but there is often a wisdom in the old men who remember the old ways, even if their hearts have grown old and bitter. The Imperials hide their racism, so they can feel superior for it, but at the end of the day they see other races as something to be used for their own power, not as actual people, with actual feelings. If you play through the game as an Imperial you see the unfeeling callousness of Tullius's attitude towards each Jarl he rplaces, in contrast you can see that Ulfric sees each Jarl he replaces as a deeply unfortunate necessity. He takes them one at a time, respects their words even if he disagrees with them. He treats them as people, not as chess pieces. He's an honest racist, Tullius is a dishonest one. It's a comparison often made between the Germanic People's towards the end of the Roman Empire, and the Romans themselves. The Romans always felt superior ( look at the way they " honored " other cultures by deciding whether or not they could be Roman Citizens. For a province of the Roman Empire, citizenship had to be earned where those born in Rome were born with it ). It's the worst type of Racism in my book the " I have black friends " type, even though you've never had those friends over to your house. That's just how it is, not since the Septim's has anything like mutual respect come out of the Imperial City, the Redguards saw it, The Bosmer Saw it, The Khajiit saw it, The Bretons saw it, and now Skyrim sees it. Ask yourself this, considering how many provinces in the last 20 years have broken away from the Empire why is it that Skyrim is so important? Why is Skyrim more important than Hammerfell, or High Rock, or Elsywer, or Valenwood? I'll tell you why, because the Nords are the backbone of the Imperial Legion, and the Empire can't afford to lose them. They aren't concerned about Skyrim as a place, they're concerned about Skyrim as a resource. Sounds like Corporate America right before AIG and Global Crossing tanked the economy if you ask me.

Ulfric is actually the easiest part of the puzzle to figure out. Give him exactly what he -says- he wants. He wants a moot, give him one, right away. Right now. Invite him to make his case, forgive his " murder " of Torgyy, say it was a misunderstanding and by Skyrim Law everything was right. Then tell the Thalmor where to stick it, rip the WGC up in their faces and declare Talos a God again. Then of course TMII has to go, if not the entire Dynasty. The people want change, and with change comes a new Dynasty. The Dragonborn fits in nicely here. So what you end up with is Ulfric with his moot, and you've taken away any reason for him to *censored*. Even support him in his claim for High King, it's not like he isn't qualified, give him his bygones be bygones bit, encourage the Moot to make him High King in Skyrim, endorse him openly. So really he has no reason to *censored*, none at all, kill him with kindness, and he may resent you for it but he can't hate you ( publically ) for it, because in Skyrim the -people- believe you've done right by Skyrim. It's not like you're losing much in the deal either, Ulfric is certainly qualified. Brilliant war leader, Jarl of the Capitol City, Impressive Military Record, respected ( even if they dislike him ) in Skyrim, and if you give him everything he wants ( minus independence from the Empire entirely ) he'd -have- to bend the knee to the Emperor ( provided that Emperor is founder of a new Dynasty. My current char is named Athigg MacRiall and a MacRiall Dynasty with a full blooded Nord on the throne ( I'd even have as my Dragonborn's Dynasty a refusal to take an Imperial Name, what are they going to do in Cyrodil? Revolt? in the middle of a war with the Skyrim issue settled? I'd invite all my housecarl's down to be my personal bodyguard, and a select guard made up of members of all the cities in Skyrim to be the Palace guards ). Reform the Blades and Publically support the Dawnguard. Step One, Diplomatically settled. Ulfric neutralized, a new Imperial Dynasty, Skyrim not only represented but even favored by the Empire. All the wind sucked right out of his sails. Step two, a new treaty with Hammerfell. Start with reparations in the form of no taxation for seven years on Hammerfell if they rejoin the Empire. Give a Redguard from the ( forget which house, not the Crowns, the other ones ) command of the Imperial Navy. Set up an elite Unit of Al'kir Horsemen to be stationed in Cyrodil, complete with their traditional armor, weapons, and dress. Promise War to the Death with the Thalmor. Hammerfell returned. Step Four. Tell High Rock, flat out, that if they don't straighten up and fly right you'll divide them between Hammerfell and Skyrim and let the leaders of those nations sort them out with Imperial money backing them. Let the rich merchants of Cyrodil pay for stability in the Empire. Step five. Approach the Dunmer, offer them all lands in Eastern Cyrodil ( where they are the Majority anyway ) in exchange for them coming back into the Empire. Set up house Hlaalu as head of an interim Government to oversee the transition. Step six. In secret inform the leaders of each major section. Ulfric, the not Crowns house in Hammerfell, and the head of House Hlaalu to prepare for a war against the Thalmor. Step Seven, Invade Argonia, return the lands belonging to the Dunmer to them, incorporate it into the Empire again. Step Eight, Declare Crusade against the Thalmor, invade Valenwood. Step Nine, Invade the Summerset Isles and reduce it to Ash, politely threaten the now Isolated Khajiit Kingdoms back into the Empire Step Ten, Rule for another thousand years. Thing is we know TMII isn't going to step down, we also know the WGC won't be broken. The things that bring down Empires are amazing aren't they?