ClonePatrol

And yet the house I built has five beds. Wife, Heitman (Sorry, Steward... getting hyped up for Morrowind-esque culture again), Bard, self, 2 kids, Carriage driver...I think you may need more beds. If you don't remodel the entry and get the bedrooms addition, you can have; a cabin-like bedroom with a double bed, another double and a room with two twin beds (suddenly wondering why beds meant for one person are called twins, and ones meant for two have more singular names... full, queen, king) in the upstairs area, and then the family room with a double-bed and the two kids beds for a total of ten places to sleep. With a wife, two kids, bard, steward, housecarl, and carriage driver, that leaves you two free spots. And potentially a couple other houses with an equivalent staff, minus a mom that you don't need to adopt them. Plus house in cities proper. Windstad Manor is just across the bay, and within eyesight of Solitude, although Proudspire Manor isn't on the right side of the city to theoretically overlook it, I think the Blue Palace is. It's so close to Solitude that I just set it up as a supply depo, with greenhouse, storage room, and armory; and just pack it full of surplus loot (the kids live at the Lakeview, the first one built and nicest location). Lol, I gave mine ones with super strong Fear and Turn Undead enchantments, so anything the little ones hit will take off running the other way to be dispatched at range by me or the housecarl.

I think many of us would be happy if it were scaled up even just a teeny bit, like say twice the current size along either axis. The current scale isn't bad, but many places seem as if they're within yelling distance of another location - which makes creating, say, roving town border patrols unfeasible because they'd sight others way too often. With a larger area animals would have more 'breathing space' too - struck me as odd that people-shy creatures were as close to encampments as they are. Didn't have the fortune to play either Arena or Daggerfall :( You can download Daggerfall and Arena for free (FREE!!! :biggrin: ) at the Elder Scrolls Official website. They also have unofficial stuff (mods, translations, etc) for both of them at UESP wiki (Daggerfall, Arena).

Hopefully Microsoft isn't making them hold it back and there's an actual development reason for it. It's just kind of a d*** move to not let them release it in time for Christmas, when a lot of people buy (or in some cases, get bought for them) all the games they're going to play for the rest of the winter months. With the Steam Holiday sales, I'm hoping to get a nice little catalog and nothing else for quite a while.

The three things that have always annoyed me most are Astrid being able to abduct you from anywhere to the middle of Hjaalmarch; Karliah being invisible beyond all possible detection and able to poison you with one of her arrows no matter what protection against poison you're supposed to have; and Commander Maro being able to catch you leaving Castle Dour whether you're invisible or not then for him to hide in an area that can't actually be reached (blocked in by invisible walls so you must walk into a trap, failure and gaining a 1500 septim bounty is the only option). Maro somehow telepathically forces you to sheathe your weapons in front of his battle ready soldiers, too. Even when I don't play a thief or assassin character I tend to play a well prepared and tactical character, so having my character forced into stupid situations I should be able to avoid for the sake of plot really bothers me. I always try and have the best gear I can when I set out and as soon as I'm able, I get the Detect Life and Detect Dead spells so I can't be ambushed in dungeons or when traveling. I sneak almost everywhere, and if I'm not already doing so then I start as soon as a detect spell shows some humanoid up ahead so I can get a look at them before they get a look at me. I boost up illusion just so that I can cast Invisibility and the 'quiet casting' perk. I even try and play a bit like a ranger; I scout out areas before attacking, I take cover between ranged attacks, I try and keep retreating enemies from gaining high ground, when retreating I try and gain high ground for a counter-attack, I lay Rune Spells as traps and use pre-existing traps and the environment to my benefit when I can, I avoid the bridges and fords that are obvious places to cross rivers (which are also random event spawn points most of the time), try not to travel along the edges of large bodies of water or cliffs where I can get pinned down, launch attacks (on bandits and the like) at night, I pretty much only sleep in player owned houses (with a housecarl, and not when the housecarl is sleeping) or an inn full of people, etc. Magic items to protect against poison, disease, and to provide water-breathing were at the top of my list of things to get when I started my very fist character (tracking down and buying the items to get 100% resistances doesn't come cheap or easy, and the potions to be safe aren't entirely cheap either). And I always have an assortment of potions I've crafted to fill in any gaps or boost skills I think I may need a bit extra for (and playing an alchemist can be really time consuming, too). Becoming a vampire is a simple method that a lot of players pursue that should completely protect from both diseases and poison. These quests force the character into making mistakes though; wasted invisibility potions worth several hundred (to thousands) of gold, enemies that can't possibly be detected or evaded. It doesn't matter how prepared you are for the situation based on the information the game gives you (the Dark Brotherhood will send you a note that pretty much announces they're going to pay you another visit, Mercer Frey will tell you Karliah is a master marksman who uses ambushes and poisoned arrows) or how smart you play; there's just no option but to fail. I can't help but feel you should be able to get the drop on Astrid first (maybe as she tracks you); either evade Karliah's arrow or protect yourself from it (in which case Mercer could be the one to turn invisible and flee instead of Karliah) and she could talk to you in the ruins instead of dragging your unconscious bleeding body outside; and actually escape from Castle Dour before Maro can spring his ambush (there's no way I'd have tried to take Astrid's recommended path out if the game didn't seal the other exits). A lot of quest lines are way too linear, but these are the kinds of quests that should reward a smart approach and attention to detail, not ignore it.

You can open the console and type in: player.setav shoutrecoverymult 0 The default setting for that actor value is 1, and setting it to 0 removes the cooldown for all your shouts (letting you spam them if you want). You can also set it to something else, since the number just represents a percent of the normal cooldown (0.25 = 25% normal, etc).

They can also probably collect dead plants and plant materials without issue. Lots of plants, like many types of flowers, die every year after they've dropped seeds. I can't see any reason why Bosmer couldn't collect alchemy ingredients from them before they rot. Lumber can be taken from fallen trees or branches.

I'm not really up for another long winded reply, they're getting to be a bit much for me too, and I have other things to do so I'll try and keep this as short as possible. I'm not exactly the only one assuming things: Where is this whole Maro blackmailing Astrid angle coming from? There's no evidence of anything like that occurring in game. It's an assumed possibility that designed to shed Astrid in a more forgiving light. It's certainly possible that he did, but given how the events in game unfolded it seems to incredibly unlikely to me, because based on how I assume a reasonable person would act in those situations (granted not all people are reasonable) they would have acted differently. People assume things all the time, there's nothing wrong with it. When you have a gap in your knowledge of a specific event, scenario, etc. you make assumptions based on similar things. For example, I don't know the exact operating procedures of my local chain of... let's say gas stations. But I do know a decent amount about those of retail businesses of similar size, and with similar needs. I can make pretty good assumptions about the minimum amount of experience their managers have, how much all of their employees are payed, how long before opening staff is likely to arrive, when the manager will be on site, how they do the employee scheduling, how many times a week they receive deliveries of certain goods, etc. Knowing a bit about the top level structure of the Dark Brotherhood, and the general structure of organizations spread over a large area that have to report to a small governing body, you can have a decent idea of how the Dark Brotherhood is likely structured. It's not the clothes that make Cicero a jester, it's the clothes and the antics together. A jester is supposed to dress and act a certain way, it's what makes them a jester instead of some other type of clown. If he dressed like a jester and didn't act like one, he wouldn't be one. I'll admit to misremembering certain details (ex. Cicero's attack and his leaving), but there is a lot of stuff to keep straight and I simply don't have the time to fact check every single thing before I post. I still got the gist of his motives for the attack right though, who he attacked first (Astrid or Arnbjorn) is beside the point and Veezara did only get hurt because he involved himself. He needed to hide what he was saying from the rest of the Dark Brotherhood because he had been talking to other members in private about returning to the old ways, which Astrid would have been strongly against. Some of the other members weren't terribly opposed to it, so in a way Astrid was right about him, he just wasn't meeting with them in that room. As for him prepping the other sanctuary, that was really beside the point in the first place. So what if he did have a back up place to stay when Astrid proved hostile, that's really just good forethought on his part. If he can't "find sanctuary" in Falkreath because Astrid didn't want him or the Night Mother around (and she clearly didn't), he would need some other place to go. If he hadn't left when he did, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Astrid would have tried to get rid of him at the same time she tried to get rid of the Dragonborn. Not everyone in Nirn knows everything about magic, that is obvious. But just like you can assume even an amateur chemist knows a bit about the periodic table of elements, you can assume somebody who employes a type of conjuration magic has to know a bit about how conjuration magic functions. Granted, I am assuming Astrid caused Shadowmere to come forth, since generally things can't cross the boundary from other planes to Nirn without being summoned (the whole Amulet of Kings and sealing tight the gates of Oblivion thing), but some of the events in game do shed some doubt on whether that's still true or not. It still seems highly unlikely that Astrid didn't know what she was giving the Dragonborn when they learned to summon Lucien. This is the point where I'm goona have to stop for a while, I've got things to do today and for the rest of the week at least so I probably won't be on the forum much, if at all. EDIT: I really am long winded aren't I? I did mean for that to be shorter...

Dear almost everyone, I know I haven't been in Skyrim all that long, and it's not all that surprising that not everyone has heard of me, but please stop treating me like I'm a nobody. Maybe you could let me give a full introduction. Maybe you could make some effort to figure out who I am or, you know, what's going on in the world around you... The guards pretty much everywhere seem to know who I am, which is sometimes nice. They really are a well informed bunch aren't they? People should listen to them more, but they never seem to be around to chime in when I need them. I swear, it's like no matter how quickly I travel, news reaches them ahead of me about my dealings from clear across Skyrim and they don't wanna bring it up with anyone but me... Dear Jarl of {insert name of any hold here}, Do you not care who any of your peers Thanes are? I am one you know. Which other Jarl's Thane, you ask? Most of them really. I'm not even sure I should be allowed to hold this many titles, my allegiances are pretty divided... But maybe I could help ease the tensions between you all in these troubled times? When you need to send troops near a border town to protect your citizens or something I could let them know your not about to invade their lands, things like that? They do trust me, or so they say. I really am a good friend to have. No? You wanna just pretend like I'm not carrying around all these badges of office? Okay then... Also, while I still have your attention, please don't give me a weapon as a badge of office. I have plenty of weapons. Really, really good ones. The ones you give me are only good for mounting on plaques. I'm not sure anybody even recognizes those 'badge' ones anyway, so they aren't serving their purpose very well. Maybe you could give me a nice livery badge, a Patent of Nobility, and a pile of gold. Oh, that'd be nice... Dear General Tulius {or Ulfric Stormcloak}, Why don't we forget all this war business, there's not all that much need for it really. I was just in the Palace of the Kings {or Castle Dour} last week. I just walked right in, right up to Ulfric {or Tulius}. He was right there. I could just stab him for you if you want... Why don't I just stab him? It would be so very easy. No? Well, if you say so... Dear Allies, One of you taking friendly fire in the middle of a battle is not a reason for you all to turn against me and attack me relentlessly. I don't overreact when you fire an arrow in to my back, or hit me with a fireball, or a gigantic spear of ice, or when you ruin a carefully laid ambush... you know what, screw you guys. Dear General Tulius, Let me get this straight, Ulfric only has a claim to the throne of High King because he challenged and killed the last King in a hastily declared duel? And you say his claim is illegitimate because the King could be Championed and Ulfric killed him before he could do that? So why don't we try this, call him out for a duel just like he did the late King. If he can beat the best Champion the Empire can find he can be King, if he doesn't and he probably won't, he invalidates his own claim right? Why won't that work? Because... Well, okay then... Dear Spriggans, I don't want to harm you or your sacred grove. This is your place, I can respect that. Take nothing and leave only foot prints. Please just leave me alone. Dear Eligible Khajiit and Bosmer Bachelor/ettes, Where are all of you? Dear Guards, You were never an adventurer like me. None of you were. Have any of you actually been in the countryside recently? It's freaking anarchy. There are bandits, large groups of hostile mages, and savage beasts everywhere. Vampires, so many vampires. And they're all ready, willing, and intent on fighting to the death. Don't even get me started on the veritable plague of draugr lead by their super-powerful Thu'um wielding Dragon Priests. Dear Dragons, How many of you do I have to kill before you get the message? I've absorbed so many dragon souls, I don't even know what to do with them all. There's not enough words in the dragon language. Where are you all even coming from for that matter? Where can you all possibly be hiding? I swear it's like there's more dragons than people around here, like one of these days I goona stumble across a valley with a hundred of you guys in it, drawing gigantic straws to see who comes after me next. Dear Horse, Stop ratting me out to the guards. Please pass on this request to chicken.

Astrid kidnapped you but gave you an out so no damage done? If someone kidnapped you IRL and told you that you could only leave if you killed someone for them you'd be fine with that then? It always bothered me the way Astrid handled that situation, because she if she had just approached the Dragonborn to extend an invitation he wouldn't have any reason to be pissed at her (aside from her maybe sending assassins after them previously, but you know, business is business and she had no reason not to at the time) and it'd have been far safer for her, though admittedly less dramatic. The debt she claimed the Dragonborn owed her wasn't even a legitimate debt because while Aventis Arentino was trying to summon the Dark Brotherhood (openly and for a long enough amount of time that every inn keeper in Skyrim knows about it) she never actually formed a contract with him, the Dragonborn got to the Arentino boy first and killed Grelod without necessarily ever making any formal arrangements with him and only makes less than a hundred gold from it (personally, I've usually approached it in a more, "let's see what all this is about" manner). You can't steal something from somebody before they have it. If somebody is going to hire a contractor to do some work they probably have an idea who they want to do it in mind and may try and get in touch with them first, but until an arrangement is made for that work to be done there's nothing unusual about a different contractor taking on the job, especially if the originally intended contractor can't actually be reached in a timely manner. This is partly why the Night Mother is so important to the Dark Brotherhood, she magically hears the Black Sacrament so that it can be performed in secrecy (seriously, who but her was going to hear about Motierre in as isolated a place as Volunruud?) and she informs her Listener, who instructs a Speaker to arrange a contract, who then sends a Dark Brotherhood assassin to carry it out. Aside from the fact that it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense that Astrid can kidnap the Dragonborn from literally anywhere in Skyrim (go to bed in Jorrvaskr in the middle of the day, apparently Astrid can just walk right past some of the most skilled warriors around and walk right out lugging an unconscious body) and transport him to the middle of Hjaalmarch without anyone intervening, even an evil character should be incredibly pissed off about all that. The only reason I've ever seen not to kill her for that, is because she happens to be with the Dark Brotherhood and it's a business opportunity for the Dragonborn. It's always seemed to me that she is the one being spared death at that point, not the other way around. But really, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (same as with the Thieves' Guild questline involving the Dragonborn getting poisoned by Karliah's arrows, even if they've taken the simple steps to have 100% immunity from poison, Mercer does mention ahead of time that she uses poisoned arrows). Astrid does sort-of admit to being responsible for what happened with Maro on her death bed though, when she admits that she did what she did because she just wanted things to go back to the way they were before the Dragonborn as Listener, Cicero, and the Night Mother (who by Dark Brotherhood tradition would all out rank her) showed up. Astrid didn't so much support the Dragonborn as use him. She saw them as a subordinate, a skilled killer who at the abandoned shack killed when she asked them to do so. The pay she offers for the missions is also usually pretty mediocre compared to the coin made off the loot that the Dragonborn can pick up (which is pretty standard fare). It's also unlikely that Astrid had known Maro knew the pass-phrase to the Sanctuary, there'd have been very little reason for him to tell her unless he was trying to use it to get the identity of the person who put out the contract, which isn't what he did at all, and if he had then Astrid would still have known better than to continue using the place (because if she had known the place was compromised she'd have known it wouldn't be safe to go back to regardless of the deal struck with Maro). I'm pretty sure that Cicero only kills Loreius and his wife if you turn him in to the guard for them, otherwise they get left alone. Cicero acting like a jester didn't, and doesn't really imply that he's nuts. He is a bit, but not completely. A jester is a type of performer, and it's not strange for people who perform for a living to stay in character whenever they are in public. It's not all that weird for him to talk to the Night Mother either, even if she doesn't talk back she can hear him. The guy is frustrated and venting, it's a perfectly normal behavior, don't tell me you've never closed the door to a room and ranted about things you wouldn't want others to hear. Would it be any stranger if he was talking to a cat or a dog? Lots of people do that. I'd call it less strange even, because while it may seem odd because she's "dead", death in the Elder Scrolls universe isn't nearly the same sort of thing as in this one. Cicero also didn't just attack Veezara, he attacked Arbjorn for disrespecting the Night Mother (breaking the Five Tenets, and remember Cicero followed "the old ways" and that was a serious taboo, aside from being an obvious way to instigate a fight with him), and Veezara got hurt when he involved himself in the fight. It's also perfectly legitimate for him to expect Astrid to defer to you somewhat, since the Night Mother is by right as the Chosen of Sithis and by tradition, the true leader of the Dark Brotherhood and aside from her the Listener is traditionally the highest ranking member. It would also have been a legitimate request for the Dragonborn, even as Listener, to defer to her until they've become more experienced in the ways of the Dark Brotherhood. There is a lot they never even get the opportunity to learn before she betrays them, and she would have been an obvious choice for the Dragonborn to induct into the Black Hand, fully legitimizing her as a leader of the Dark Brotherhood as it comes back to power and not just that one Sanctuary. Cicero also didn't really prep the Dawnstar Sanctuary, as the Night Mother's Keeper he simply knew the pass-phrase to it (and likely all the others), and how to activate and control it's defences. He does have those "binding tomes" full of all sorts of secret Dark Brotherhood lore doesn't he? Like the phrase that lets him know when a real Listener has been chosen? If you read his journals it is mentioned that he's already killed one person for pretending to be the Listener, and he knew they were pretending because they didn't know the phrase that only he knew. Astrid was being helpful to herself, not necessarily to the Dragonborn. Just because somebodies interests coincide with yours for a while doesn't mean they are trustworthy or a good ally. As I've said before, Astrid's abandoning of the Five Tenets (which weren't limiting to her) and her "my word is law" mentality should have made her betrayal completely expected (not to say it was inevitable, just expected). It's true, we don't know exactly how Astrid got her position, but it can be assumed to a certain degree. There are five members of the Black Hand (aside from the Silencers that most members aren't even aware of) there were definitely more than five Sanctuaries in Tamriel, meaning the leader of a Sanctuary is likely just the most senior member of that Sanctuary, or the member of that Sanctuary recognized as the most capable leader (though she may have been appointed to the position by one of the late members of the Black Hand). Their authority would begin and end at that Sanctuary as they manage it for the actual leaders of the Dark Brotherhood. It can be assumed "the old ways" were followed when Astrid first joined if she was the one to abandon them, and she likely believed in them to some degree at one point. There is indication in Cicero's journals that the Black Hand was still operating and the Sanctuaries were in communication with each other until the one where Cicero had resided in previously fell. I'm not judging Astrid harshly because she doesn't have faith in the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood anymore, I can even sympathize with her reasons for losing faith. Astrid was simply a dangerous individual, she was acting foremost for her best interest, and she did betray the Dark Brotherhood and she should have known full well the potential consequences of those actions. She stepped up and kept her Sanctuary operating as best she could in the absence of a Listener, and that's admirable, but that doesn't excuse her other actions. Ignoring Cicero claims to authority is one thing, but once the Night Mother named a Listener, by refusing to acknowledge and accept what that means she was acting against the best interests of the Dark Brotherhood. The people of Skyrim also aren't in doubt about whether or not the Gods are real, the conflict in Skyrim and the banning of the worship of Talos is about the Apotheosis of the mortal Tiber Septim, founder of the Septim Dynasty into a God. The Thalmor, elven supremacists that they are, refuse to acknowledge that a human could become a God, even though he most certainly did. This is if you can even consider Tiber Septim to have been a mortal that is, because he was a Dragonborn. Dragonborn, being those gifted with the body of a mortal and the soul of a dragon as granted to them by the God Akatosh, are something that should be considered a large threat to the ideals of the Thalmor. Akatosh is also known as Auri-El and worshiped as the primary God of the elves. That pretty much all known Dragonborn (aside from perhaps, the "Last Dragonborn" the PC in Skyrim) have been humans, this calls in to question whether or not they really are superior to men as even their "patron deity", the one they hold in highest esteem, seems to favor the races of men over them. Nobody has called into question the existence any of the Aedric Eight Divines or Padomaic Daedric Princes (except maybe Malacath the God of the Orcs once called Trinimac, and like Meridia is said to have been an Aedra long ago). The conflict, as described by many who support the Empire, is about whether the banning of Talos worship warrants seceding from the Empire. Many Imperial supporters are indicated in game to actually be Talos worshipers, with their support of the Empire having a lot to do with knowing that remaining united in the face of the Thalmor threat is of the utmost importance. It's not only likely, but pretty much a certainty that once (if) the Thalmor have been (are) defeated that the free worship of Talos will once again be allowed in the Empire. Tullius actually indicates in game that he believes another war is forthcoming, and the Thalmor don't actually do anything to discourage that idea (quite the opposite, really). The Thalmor habitually refer to the Great War as the First War, and since there hasn't been a Second War yet that should make their intentions incredibly obvious. In the face of a genocidal enemy like the Thalmor unity among the races of man is arguably the most important thing. Unfortunately for humans though, the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion can wait a lot longer building up their power to resume war without their people forgetting what the situation really is. Altmer can live a thousand years, their leaders could spend two hundred years preparing for the next war, by which point multiple generations of humans who never lived during the first war could have died of old age. The Sithis tome and the stained glass window are indicators that even under Astrids rule the Sanctuary is still essentially a temple to the God Sithis. As for Lucien, if you read the in-game books there's several descriptions of how magic works in the game world. To summon something forth the player just has to push a button, the character has to reach out to the place where that entity resides and needs to have a pretty good idea what they are trying to do. Even if Astrid herself didn't know how to summon Lucien from the Void, she knew how to summon Shadowmere from there. All magic requires lots of training and a detailed understanding of what is trying to be done, the only exception being the Dragonborn's instinctual ability to use Thu'um which wouldn't be as easy as it is for the player without dragons around for them to kill and "absorb their understanding" along with their soul. None of this is about faith, the only thing to do with faith in a world where Gods are obvious is in choosing which ones to follow. There's loads and loads of proof and lore within the game that should make all of this clear.

Astrid was the one who taught the Dragonborn how to summon Lucien from the Void. The Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary contains several books on the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood, including a prominently displayed copy of the book Sithis in the same room where Astrid spends most of her time. Are you making the argument that she had no idea what she was doing? That she thought the Gods weren't actually real? That Sithis and the Night Mother wouldn't take issue with what she was doing? There is a big stained glass representation of the God Sithis in the main room of the Sanctuary. Logic would dictate that you don't turn away from a God and the beliefs of his followers in what is effectively that Gods temple. People on Nirn don't need faith to know the Gods are real, just in choosing which ones to follow. The Gods are definitely real, there is no doubt about that. A person with enough power can literally conjure up an incarnation of a God, Gods are known to give guidance and grant magical power to certain favored followers; their influence is felt by the people every day and it's not in the slightest bit a secret. If you consider faith to be opposed to logic/reason, then the illogical/unreasonable thing to do is to behave as if a God doesn't exist in a world in which they clearly do. Even if like the Dwemer, you considered the Gods to be entities with power that could be obtained by others, they are still a great many magnitudes of power above any mortals and are not something to trifle with. Astrid most certainly knew who the Night Mother and Sithis were, whether she placed her faith in them or not. She may not have known who Lucien was in life, but she most certainly knew what he was in death and where he came from.

Decided to go back through this and realized I never really replied to anyone in this thread, though I have been reading it over time. Some of the examples people give are really good, exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. I know it's been a while since I made it, but I wanted to respond to what I think is the main criticism of my first post (and it applies to several others people have made on here, I think): That the Dragonborn doesn't really have any choice but to kill various NPCs when he goes into their "bases", that even if he isn't brandishing a weapon they still attack him. I don't really know about other people on here but I was born, raised, and have only really lived for any significant amount of time in places with no-duty-to-retreat Castle Laws. The term has it's origins in English Law, but I do live stateside: I've always known, that if somebody breaks into a place where somebody else is living, the law allows the person that lives there to kill the intruder for it (as long as that person is still inside the residence). That's pretty much what the Dragonborn does though, breaking into the caves, keeps, camps, redoubts (i.e. forts) that people are living in for one reason or another. When he gets immediately attacked for just walking in to Fellglow Keep uninvited, it doesn't so much strike me as the mages there doing anything wrong because the Dragonborn was the invader, they were defending their home against somebody who could be perceived as a very real threat. I'm pretty sure the mage's at Fellglow will warn the player off if he approaches them slowly too, and will only attack once he's too close to, or within, their outer walls. A lot of enemies do that as long as you keep your distance. "Don't get any closer" and if you do they attack, or they may attack if you get too close (or within their boundaries) without being warned first. As for the Forsworn attacking all the time: the Forsworn are involved in guerrilla warfare, the Reach is an active war-zone. It would be nice if more of them were peaceful with the Dragonborn after he helps Madanach, but how can they really be expected to know who you are? It always seemed to me like if you don't want to be attacked by them you should be able to just put on their uniform (that Madanach gives you once you've helped him), the 'Armor of the Old Gods', and they'd leave you alone as you move through their lands (but maybe be attacked by their enemies instead). After all, you can't exactly just walk around a war zone IRL wearing civvies (especially ones that may be associated with the enemy) and expect to be left alone by the combatants. Sadly the game doesn't work like that, but it'd be nice. Maybe it's weird that I see the Dragonborn as the aggressor or the at fault party in many of those situations, but I can kind of see where the people attacking him are coming from. I don't really feel bad for the Falmer at all though, since the TES universe has a pretty nifty color coded souls thing for figuring what's more or less questionable to kill. The Falmer used to be just elves, there are two survivors in Dawnguard that can be met. But with the experimentation that was done on them by the Dwemer they devolved into beats and their souls were somehow downgraded from black to white (with the strength depending on the type). They don't really seem to have any speaking skills anymore, the Falmer language seems to be a dead language (they can't even see, so the written word at the least doesn't hold much value to them). They seem like more... incredibly hostile and savage apes with a deserved reputation for being that monster that goes bump in the night. Most of my Dragonborn have killed all of them that they can so they can't leave their ruins (though I have had some characters sneak past) on the basis that the Falmer kill pretty much any non-Falmer they can find (apparently including most of the last living still-very-much-elven Falmer that lived at the Chantry of Auri-El). I would be curious to find out what would happen to an infant Falmer raised among the surface people on non-toxic food though.

Astrid not only didn't claim to follow the old ways, she abandoned and ridiculed them. Whether or not Cicero can break the Five Tenets by attacking her or Arnborn is dependent on whether she can be considered a legitimate member of the Dark Brotherhood. In many ways she wasn't, she was the de facto leader of that Sanctuary, but only because nobody of higher standing was around. She abandoned the Five Tenets before there was even somebody to challenge her position as the leader of the Sanctuary, which only opens up to her the new options of bad mouthing the Night Mother and screwing over her fellow members (betraying the DB as a whole, stealing from fellow members, or killing somebody without first revoking their membership). Not everyone in the Sanctuary was even bothered by the prospect of bringing back the Five Tenets, Gabriella and Festus seemed quite happy with the potential return to the old ways, and everyone else just made clear that they were to loyal to Astrid because she'd been there for them in the past. ⇩ This ⇩ She allowed the Sanctuary to be compromised by the Penitus Oculatus. An attack was forthcoming, whether the Dragonborn was involved or not. Cicero also wasn't on an insane quest to restore a dead set of beliefs, he was the Keeper of the Night Mother, who is a real person who continues to influence Nirn through the conduit that are her mortal remains and the true leader of the Dark Brotherhood. The Night Mother is the Chosen of the God Sithis, one of the two primordial creator deities of all Mundus. The beliefs can't really die because the God can't die, if he wants them around the will be and they stay that way if the Dragonborn gets involved or not. If you summon Lucien back from the Void where Sithis resides, he will guide you through the quest line based on the will of Sithis. And he tells you not to kill Cicero.

Astrid and Arnbjorn didn't follow the Five Tenets and repeatedly broke them, they had no reason to expect to be protected by them (abandoning them alone may have been reason enough for them to be eliminated from the Dark Brotherhood). Astrid was the leader of a Sanctuary, not a member of the Black Hand (only the Black Hand are true leaders of the Dark Brotherhood and aren't bound by the Five Tenets). Whether Cicero violated one of the Five Tenets when he attacked Arnbjorn, or whether he carried out his obligations to them (Arnbjorn insulted the Night Mother and so Cicero tried to show him the wrath of Sithis), is open to interpretation. Cicero also didn't kill Arnbjorn or Veezara, though he may have if he'd been allowed to. He wounded them, Tenet Five specifies killing. It's a technicality sure, but you put a bunch of killers under one roof and sometimes people are goona get stabbed (especially when they keep insulting, i.e. picking fights, with other people), that should really be pretty obvious. I'm sorry....though I always destroy the DB and have no intention of doing otherwise.....(have the Official Guide and read through the story line....have no interest).....but have been keeping up with this thread out of curiosity about peoples perceptions of the DB....your posts ClonePatrol have made very interesting reading...thank you...I have been enjoying them.... :happy: .....But this line here...hmmm....their murderous Assassins for hire, how do they not deserve to die? The Dark Brotherhood are assassins (killers) for hire (not necessarily murderers), the morality of what they do as a profession is itself debatable. Lot's of people do or are perfectly willing to kill for money and they aren't thought of as bad people, and people in that sort of work are seldom allowed to pick and choose who they kill. In the US (among other places) guards and doctors who work for prisons are expected to execute inmates sentenced to death if the courts tell them to do so, they can quit over it if it comes down to it, but it's pretty much going to happen one way or another. Even in states with no death penalties the law can be changed, and those people have to decide what that means to them. Many doctors are willing to kill terminally ill patients to end their suffering even though it's illegal in most places. A police officer may only kill in defense of people as the situation warrants it, but a soldier is expected to kill who they are told to kill whether they know the exact reason or not. Whether the people willing to do these jobs are the villains of the world or the heroes is contentious, but I've always held to the idea that a persons motivations for their actions are just as important as deciding whether they made the right decision or not. The Dark Brotherhood chooses who they're willing to kill and they are likely able to set prices as they see fit. The Dragonborn receives a contract from Muiri to kill the bandit leader Alain Dufont, a despicable man who's death may be justified (if he already isn't wanted dead or alive by "legitimate" authorities), and is also given the option of killing Nilsene Shatter-Shield (under much shakier pretenses) which he can refuse. The Dark Brotherhood makes money largely as very specialized mercenaries, and there are lots of mercenaries in Tamriel. After all, you can get quests from Farkas of the (supposedly honorable) Companions to "rough up" various NPCs, the first one of those I ever got was for Carlotta "just-trying-to-make-enough-money-for-her-daughter" Valentina in Whiterun. Generic "hired thugs" can be hired and sent after the Dragonborn and will try and kill them over trespassing or petty theft. When most PCs in TES games have to be willing to kill for money, I've never really seen any reason for them to not join the Dark Brotherhood on principle alone or to judge the people to harshly just for being members. A lot of the contracts given have back story that makes them seem no less justified than the people they're told to kill by characters who probably wouldn't come across as evil (killing the vampires at Half Moon Mill for a DB contract, and killing the vampires of Morthal for Jarl Idgrod?). After all, what's the real difference between the Dragonborn killing the Emperor for Amaund Mottierre and the Dragonborn killing the Forsworn King Madanach for Thonar Silver-Blood? Or joining the Forsworn and killing Thonar Silver-Blood for Madanach instead? If you side with the Stormcloaks you have a really good reason to accept the contract to kill the Emperor, if you join the imperials not so much, if decide to stay out of it... Sometimes everyone involved is taking part in actions that are very open to interpretation morally. When the issues aren't black and white you just have to way your options and pick a side. And if you don't care either way? Business is business. Then there's always the fact that killing one person may spare a lot more. Amaund Mottierre wanted the Emperor dead and implied that he was not alone in this. If the Dark Brotherhood hadn't accepted the contract, who knows how many may have died in a more direct military attempt on the Emperor's life if members of the Elder Council (the most powerful nobles in the land) rose up against him in Cyrodiil? Maybe they wouldn't have risen up, maybe they would and thousands would have died, maybe thousands will in fighting resulting from a power struggle, maybe the Council will easily pick a new Emperor that everyone is more satisfied with. Grey, grey, and more grey. Anyway, the members of the Dark Brotherhood are generally comfortable killing for money (or personal gain of some sort), they're hardly alone in that and I don't think it makes them bad people. If they were constantly conflicted about the morality of their chosen vocation they probably wouldn't be all that good at it. An organization is just a group of people, the people in it are individuals with complex motivations. Astrid seems motivated by the power, Arnbjorn seems to do it to sate his blood lust, Veezara kills because that's what he was raised to do all his life, Gabriella seems to romanticize death itself, Babette as a vampire who's forever 10 years old probably doesn't have too many other options, Festus seems to use it as a way to further his research into Destruction magic. We don't really get any examples of what, if anything, they aren't comfortable with, but there's no reason to assume none of them have a line they aren't willing to cross. No reason to assume that if they're instructed to do something truly reprehensible they won't leave, like many people in similar jobs have done throughout history.

If that was the case, I would say Captain Aldis for vanilla game.... :happy: ....but then again I'm female.... :tongue: True... on that count, Savos Aren. :P But I have a feeling this topic wasn't intended for us. I'm a straight guy, but I've tried to RP a few female Dragonborns, and I've looked around for male characters for them to marry (the male options Bethesda included seemed to have a lot less thought put in to them though). The ones I've ended up choosing are Vilkas and Marcurio (for vanilla options); Brynjolf or Rune from the Thieves' Guild (for ones added with the console). I've considered playing a particularly ruthless female character who would marry Sibbi Black-Briar but I've yet to start that character. Sibbi's kind of an ass but he's fairly honest, not bad looking (clean & well groomed at least; he looks pretty good with Chris57's Better Males mod), very rich and just one kill (Hemming) away from being Maven's heir. Not sure I'd tell him where Svidi is though (I never have with any character I've played).

Please. You're playing "what if" to try and make a point. What if Cicero never showed up at the sanctuary at all? No contract to kill the Emperor, Gaius Maro never dies, but no conflict either, and Astrid develops a real trust in the dragonborn and there is no betrayal. Cicero did show up though, and it wasn't wrong of him to do so. He never betrayed the Dark Brotherhood. Astrid did though. And as I said, the game makes it clear that the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary was already compromised by Commander Maro and the Penitus Oculatus before the Dragonborn ever joins them. Cicero was on his way to the Sanctuary even if the Dragonborn doesn't join, and the Dragonborn can destroy the Sanctuary before he arrives. Cicero didn't take any actions not in keeping with Dark Brotherhood policies. Astrid abandoned the Five Tenets (which weren't very restrictive to her at all) and took a great many actions that put her and the entire Sanctuary at extreme risk. At a point in time when she believed the Dragonborn had already saved her husband and killed Cicero for her; was right about to kill the Emperor making them rich and bringing the Dark Brotherhood back to prominence, she turned him over to the Pentus Oculatus. Rather than simply asking the Dragonborn to leave afterwards, perhaps to take the Night Mother and reopen the Dawnstar Sanctuary she knew he had the pass-phrase to (a reasonable request that would have achieved the same goals she was working towards), she betrayed him. It doesn't matter how loyally the Dragonborn acts towards her, she betrays him. Astrid trusted a person (Maro) who not only had every reason to want to kill them all, but no reason whatsoever to trust them or to hold up his end of the bargain they made. Cicero never betrays anyone on the level that Astrid does, the only truly unsound decision he makes is attacking Arnbjorn in anger. The logic behind decisions is what's in question. Astrid made poor decisions repeatedly, Cicero not so much. He's a jester and thus acts eccentrically (the way you'd expect a jester to act), but there is a method to his madness. He was capable of coherent thought, and forward planning. Cicero didn't deserve to die, Astrid may not have deserved to die either but her death was the end result of a long line of bad decisions that put her own life and that of her 'family' in jeopardy.