Elimc

So, I'd heard that CWO got taken down, but shouldn't it be back up by now? I can't find it anywhere.

See, if that were true, I'd agree with you. But it's not. The Dominion already beat the Empire, and right now, even if the Empire wins Skyrim back easily, its never going to get as strong as it was during the great war, while the AD is still growing. Trying to do the same thing as last time, and letting the AD dictate the terms of engagement by going on the defensive is not going to ever allow the Empire, or anyone else, to ever beat the AD. The only option is to try something they don't expect and catch them off guard. But trying to repeat the same plan that failed a few years ago and expecting a different result, despite having far fewer resources (the Blades and Hammerfell), is just dumb.

@leddbate Titus mede doesnt say thst his death is necessary for the empire to continue. He just says thwt his reath is unavoidable. (While he is 1 on 1 with the best assasin) Also, while your explanation of the start of the game could be true, it is too nuch guesswork to work as a good argument.

The Dossier does not heavily imply that an imperial victory is better than a stormcloak victory, it just says that "an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim," and "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." I don't think that is heavily implying that a Stormcloak victory is worse than an imperial one.

Absolutely correct, they can call him a sleeper agent, or someone that could become one, but that is just a fancy way of saying that it's a person that they can manipulate without actually being there. He's not an actual mole, though he's just as destructive. The best Thalmor Scenario is for this war to be a very long drawn out conflict, then when they are ready once again with fresh troops, they then simply have to sweep both Cyrodill and Skyim. The 2nd best outcome is that Ulfric actually wins, Cyrodill will be weakened, but they will still have to fight it with resistance. And the least palatable scenario is the Empire actually winning, holding on to them, because the Empire would be quite strong then and the Thalmor would have to prepare even more. How do you know that the Thalmor prefer a stormcloak victory to an Imperial one. There is no evidence for this claim at all. I would argue that an Imperial victory is their second best, because they can still use their justicators to weaken Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win they are going to kick the thalmor out, so the AD won't know what's coming, or when. Remember all the groups the U.S. supported the taliban because they were fighting against Sadam Hussien? Just because the AD thinks the Stormcloaks are the bigger threat doesn't mean they actually are. I just finished the last Earthsea book, and I can't believe I never noticed how similiar the true names are to shouts until you pointed it out.

Riften's mage is an absolute laughing stock and totally incompetent. Windhelm's is surrounded by so much fear and suspicion that no one thinks twice about blaming him for murders because, 'Wizard'. Dawnstar's is an outright pacifist. And all those positions are simply there because the Jarl's have always had a court mage, not because they are respected positions or that Nords have any faith in the magical arts. The Way of the Voice is for the glory and praise of the gods, not for martial pursuits. It COULD be argued that the Way would allow for the wider spread of the Thu'um in the glorification of Talos, but Ulfric admits that the Talos ban is a political tool and not particularly dear to his heart. In a similar vein, you don't seem to understand how the Thu'um works. Jurgen didn't convince the other Tongues of the Way, he literally shouted them into submission. He SHOUTED pacifism onto them. His Thu'um was stronger, and its influence changed how the Thu'um was taught. It's not a matter of interpreting philosophies, but an expression of sheer will. The Greybeards of today are still bound by the will of Jurgan, not an interpretation of some distant philosophy. The Greybeards could use the voice for fighting if they wanted to, because Arngeir says "Begone, before even my philosophy is tested beyond the breaking point." So he could attack you, but he doesn't, because of his philosophy, not because of Jurgan. And where does Ulfric say that the Talos ban is a political tool?

Rome was not considered two separate countries, it was just governed in two places because one Emperor could not control all of it. They were still separate, but they became farther apart as the Western Empire lost its land to barbarians. Earlier, the East had been helping them out. So I would say that these situations are still analogous.

A point of order: Three cities in Hammerfell and most of the cities in Cyrodiil were occupied NO cities in Highrock or Skyrim were occupied by the AD. That means that "most of the cities of the Empire were occupied" is an overstatement. Sorry, I meant Cyrodil, not the Empire. Which illuminates that it is men fighting men that gives the Mer any hope of success. Movements that create divisions within the Empire is what is weakening Man in its confrontation with Mer. How you contend that it would be more advantageous for PART of the forces of Man will prevail against the Mer in the long run while at the same time saying ALL the forces unified in the Empire is doomed to failure defies logic. Or are you suggesting that Man is entirely doomed to failure anyway, so it is morally better for the Nords to lose united under their own independent banner? "Better to die as Nords than to die as Imperial lackeys!" Dead is dead. The net effect would be the Mer ascendant and what remains of Mankind subjugated. In Rome, when the city of Rome was being overwhelmed by barbarians, Byzantium was much better off on its own then it would have been if it had tried to keep Rome safe. So just because the Men would have greater numbers if they stayed united under the Empire, doesn't mean they would be more effective in a war with the AD.

If you read the journals that I linked, you will see why I think that the Empire is never going to recover. Entire cities are being destroyed by bandits and drug lords, while the legion is trying to maintain a strong face on the AD border. The Empire is giving in to Thalmor demands, and is quickly weakening. Unless they get incredibly lucky, I don't think they will be able to survive for another century. Ulfric's rebellion only helps the AD if it ultimately fails, or if it suceeds after Skyrim is destroyed. A quick victory for either side will hurt their positioin, but I think a Stormcloak victory hurts them the most. If the Empire wins, the war will still have cost them a large amount of resources. If the Stormcloaks win, Cyrodil will likely fall, but High Rock would probably leave the Empire, and if Hammerfell has recovered (unlikely), they could form their own alliance against the AD.

So then Balgruuf will be forced to either side with the Empire or fight against them, just like he has to do with the stormcloaks. So really the Imperials aren't any better than Ulfric in that aspect. But the Empire has been occupied by the AD, with most of it's cities being captured. And as you keep saying when we talk about Hammerfell, the AD would have completely destroyed many of these cities before they retreated. The IC would be spared, because the AD might have wanted to keep it intact so they could rule Cyrodil from it, but Bravil, Skingrad, Kvatch and Anvil, as well as all surrounding infrastructure could have been burned. And even if it wasn't, Cicero's journals show that it is being destroyed now. Also, Cicero doesn't go insane until after he has written the parts about major imperial cites being destroyed.

Just saying, Kajits aren't forbidden from entering cities, just the caravans, and that applies to all cities, not just stormcloak ones. I think it is a similiar case with argonians, they can go in the city, they just can't buy a house/there aren't any houses availiable for them to buy. Also, look at the quotes from Belyn Hlaalu and Nyraneye if you really think that Skyrim is that racist. Also, if you join the Stormcloaks as a non-nord, you can ask Ulfric or Galmar(i forget who) if they only accept nords, and they say that they don't. While this may have been built into lore because of casual players, it is still lore, not just a game mechanic.

@Kimmera There is a difference between being an idiot and trying to make it seem like the Empire made the right choice in the Great War. Cyrodil falling apart comes from Cicero, who has no reason at all to be biased, and Victoria who lives in solitude(forgot her last name). Cyrodil's military strength at the end of the Great War wouldn't stop Cyrodil from falling apart ten years later

@Kimmera All generals are officers, but not all officers are generals. Just because he interviewed officers, doesn't mean he interviewed generals. He could have just interviewed a few of the captains under his command and it would still count as interviewing officers. Also, that sentence doesn't make sense, because legates don't command legions. Unless the Empire is organized into legions, which then are put into a grand legion under a general. But then the legate still wouldn't know about the condition of the other grand legions. We know of at least three or four, but I think there are more that didn't get mentioned. They killed all the AD forces that were in the IC, all the AD forces who would come from Anvil and Kvatch, and all the AD forces nearby who tried to stop their advance into the IC. So maybe there are a few AD soldiers wandering around, but they are likely not a major force. You also reject any information that disagrees with you, like all the evidence we have about Cyrodil falling apart, High Rock having one of it's main cities destroyed by pirates, and still say it will recover and defeat the AD.

@CaptainPatch Legate Justianus interviewed "surviving soldiers and Imperial officers". There is no mention of him interviewing a general, or any legates who were advisers for generals. He might have just interviewed a few foot soldiers and some other legates from his legion, which wouldn't get him any information about the condition of the other 7. Ulfric might not have known much either, but I am really saying that we do not have enough information about this subject to make an informed decision. The Empire doesn't have sharpshooters to hide in the woods while the AD marches up to the Admantine Tower, just archers, who can't fire while lying prone in cover. Also, making the Empire into a wasteland would be perfect from the AD's standpoint. So you are saying that the AD can't afford to defeat the Empire, but the Empire can't afford to fight the AD, so since this is the case why did the Emperor need to surrender? Couldn't they just have made a show of force along the border to scare the AD into giving up? Or maybe the generals that he interviewed(who might not have existed) gave him a completely unbiased account of all the errors that they made. Ulfric was a soldier in the legion during the Great War, his rank is left for us to guess, weather he was a private, a legate, or a militia commander helping out the legion without actually joining it. But the second invasion will be less expensive than the first, and the third less expensive than the second, until they finally destroy the Empire. So the AD has these massive amounts of reserves in place, not to mention the army in Hammerfell, and it still has the ability to keep fighting? While the war was fought on Imperial territory, the Empire has 4 provinces, 5 if you count morrowind, while the AD has 2, and 3 if you count Elswyr, which is merely a puppet of the AD, and might not be supplying troops. So even with half of Hammerfell and a third of Cyrodil destroyed, the Empire still has more resources than the AD. So it should be able to maintain a bigger army for a longer period of time. @Kimmera The legate talked to "surviving soldiers and Imperial officers". I don't know where we got him interviewing generals from, but it wasn't from the book. He talked to a few officers and foot soldiers, likely not enough people to gain an understanding of the Empire's whole situation. He probably would know how well his legion was doing, but I think it is a stretch to say he knew how well the whole Empire was doing. Ulfric could be. Or he could just be wrong. But the same thing applies to the Great War. We just don't have enough information. The Thalmor would have been in Skyrim sooner or later, a few years doesn't matter to them. Why would the Empire sign away religious freedom of it's subjects when they have just finished killing every AD soldier in Cyrodil? Because they don't care about their subjects, as long as it happens far away and doesn't effect them. We are going in circles because we don't have enough evidence, so all we can do is try to out speculate each other.

@CaptainPatch I said that you had a point about Ulfric, but that the same thing applies to the author because a legate out in the field would only know the condition of his own legion, not all the other legions. Also, the legate was wounded during the Battle of the Red Ring, so he would have been in command after the Empire retook the IC, so he wouldn't have any idea what was going on. He would have to completely rely on Imperial generals to provide information. It doesn't take as many troops to march in and burn all the cities in all the human provinces, and then repeat that every few years. It takes even less to march an army up to the Admantine Tower, which is the only tower left active that is responsible for holding NIRN together (unless you think the WG Tower was reactivated by Akatosh, but the Admantine Tower is still important). @Kimmera The generals could have told him to write that the Empire couldn't continue instead of wouldn't continue, since the legate was writing a book that would be read widely, they wouldn't want people getting the idea that the Empire is full of cowards. Like you said, if generals told him that the Empire couldn't continue, why would he listen to a captive AD soldier, or a few soldiers (like Ulfric). We really need more than one book to make an accurate judgement about the Great War. Ulfric wouldn't know any more than the legate, but since he might have been a legate himself, or talked to his legate, he might know as much as his legate. Ulfric saying the Empire should have continued is the same as him saying the Empire could have continued. TMII might have wanted to retake the IC to get terms that wouldn't harm Cyrodil as much as it's provinces, or maybe he thought the AD was going to betray him after he signed a treaty and wanted to make them more cautious. While an attack on the AD is not a guaranteed victory, if the AD has the troops you claim it does then a surrender, or even a peace treaty that lets them weaken the Empire, is the equivalent of suicide. The AD will grow stronger while the Empire grows weaker, and by the time the second Great War starts the AD will roll through the Empire with ease. If you keep fighting, you have a chance, if you sign a treaty, you let them play their long game and they will slowly but surely destroy you.