khyloskye

Yeah. They are only partially isolationist (Nords still volunteer for Imperial armies), and mildly discriminatory (a few a-holes in Windhelm does a racist nation make), and I agree that compared to some other groups, especially certain Mer, they are hardly the disgusting haters some make them out to be. One thing I find interesting about this thread is how people seem to want to interject our real world civility (and their own personal beliefs) into the TES narrative. In just the thread above me you see the words Nazi, nationalist, racial superiority, and democrat of all things lol. That all seems so weird to me, especially when people want to take things so personally. There's no reason to think that just because a player likes a certain group/person, that that person should then be considered as identifying with said group/person. I mean, I'm a huge Bernie Sanders supporter, and a white guy. Yet when it comes to the game Skyrim, I dislike the Empire, like the Stormcloaks, and prefer to be a Redguard when playing. I choose those things because I think they make a more interesting story for how I play the game, it doesn't really have much to do with needing to identify with any group or person. To me, Tamriel is not a reflection of Earth. It is entirely its own world with its own history and customs. And trying to project our own human experience into the game just seems so wrong to me. Let it be what it is: a make-believe fantasy world of wondrous possibilities that has very little to do with real life on Earth.

@LoneWolfEburg I agree somewhat, part of my point was that there is no real life equivalent to TES racism since we are all the same race. We'd need another sentient race, like aliens as you mentioned, for that comparison. When I said it's not meant to mirror real life, I meant not in a direct way. Concepts like evil, good, and heroism obviously play a role. But straight-line cultural and societal comparisons in fantasy writing do not often match our own civilized society. Indeed, part of the draw of fantasy writing is exploring otherwise taboo ideas. For instance, let's say a writer created a story about an all-female warrior society (like mythological Amazons) in which they routinely carried out raids to human settlements, and carried off and enslaved men for labor and reproductive purposes. Now if someone reading that immediately stopped and remarked, "Well this is just plain sexist, and the slavery and rape involved is disgusting. I can't read this and I don't see how anyone else can, it's wrong." <--Well, yeah, slavery and rape is very wrong. But that's not the point of the story. Mature fantasy writing assumes you already know the difference between right and wrong, as well as have the ability to set aside your Earthly conventions for the sake of the narrative. It's inviting you to at least marginally participate in a world that doesn't always play by the same rules as real life. And as long as you realize that it's not trying to change your moral code, it's okay to let yourself be immersed in it for a little while.

TES is a racially distinct and divided setting, and I'm not sure it's really considered "wrong" in TES to dislike or even hate other races. The Empire is a melting pot because by its very nature it has to be. And the Nords (like the Altmer) are xenophobic because that's kind of how most of them just are...they were written to be that way. But I really don't think our own Earthly experience with racism has anything to do with some completely fictional fantasy setting like TES. For one thing, RL racism is a misnomer...we are all the same race. In TES, they are actually different races (vast DNA differences if you will) and even those are divided into subgroups with distinctly different physical abilities (humans: Nord, Redguard, Imperial, Breton). A Nord being "racist" to a Breton would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a chimpanzee. And a Nord being "racist" to an Argonian would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a dolphin. Games like TES (and the vast majority of all fantasy rpgs for that matter) rely on distinct species, or "races", for both visual variety as well as the more important aspect of giving the player much needed customization and uniqueness when engaging the narrative. Plus, it's just cool to get to RP things that look elvish, dwarvish, feline, etc. I mean, if you can't support a certain culture in a fantasy RPG setting because there's evidence of even minor discrimination to another "race", then you might think about playing a different game. Although you'd be hard put to find one that is 100% non-discriminatory/racist. It's a game. It's not meant to mirror real life.

@Amoryenar "The AD will take Skyrim if they have the chance, that much is certain." The AD will take anywhere on Tamriel if they have the chance, Skyrim isn't unique in this regard. "They already have Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, and Valenwood..." They don't have Hammerfell or Black Marsh, so you're half right. I'm not sure why you think Skyrim will just roll over to the AD, and you're certainly not the first to think so. But... Hammerfell held them off alone, so it's certainly possible another independent province can. Not to mention the fact that the Empire is directly in the way of an Aldmeri assault on Skyrim. They'd have to go through them or around them, neither of which is without consequence. Right now, all major parties in the Great War are in a weakened state: Empire, Dominion, Hammerfell. And with the civil war, Skyrim is too. Right now, everyone is somewhat equally handicapped. Personally, I think there's too many Oblivion-philes still around that can't give up on the emotional connection to that game. I get it, it was a great game. But there are plenty of other stories to tell. I, for one, would love to see either a brand new political power in Tamriel...or none at all. It would be really interesting to see Tamriel layed out like independant city-states. After all, Bethesda modeled the Empire after the Romans, and even they didn't last forever. :wink:

I agree. I think coming off of Oblivion, Beth needed to downplay the Imperials somewhat in order for players to see the Stormcloaks as likable. I would bet the whole Concordat business was precisely for that reason. The problem is striking a proper balance. Too little and players might not give the Stormcloaks a chance, too much and players might abandon Imperials all together. I think they did a pretty good job with that balance, these forum topics are certainly a testament to that lol.

Not that I disagree with your multi-cultural vs mono-cultural theory as it relates to modern media and entertainment, but I think you're reading into the Empire vs AD conflict a bit too much, or rather you're focusing on the wrong aspects. Lore-wise the High Elves have always been somewhat snooty and arrogant towards the other races, and they've always had outright disdain for the Empire and the deities they worship...the historical defeats the High Elves suffered at the hands Alessia and Tiber Septim likely explain most of that. And while I think most players have a hard time empathizing with the Thalmor agenda, there is at least a context to their behaviors and actions...after all, at one point it was Elven kingdoms that ruled most of Tamriel, in the same way that the Empire did in its heyday. I think Bethesda's goal in gameplay and lore has always been to create an environment where there is no simple good vs evil conflict, but rather varying shades of gray. The AD is easily vilified now, and were in years past for treating most humans as nothing more than slaves, but they themselves also suffered horrendously from the political and religious backlash during the reign of the Alessian order. And a lot of people tend to overlook that there was a sizable minority of High Elves who sympathized with and even outright supported Alessia and her rebellion; and yet somehow they vanished from Cyrodil and the Tamrielic mainland all the same as did their more malign and cruel brethren. Likewise, the Empire has the appearances of a mostly multi-cultural and benign Tamrielic kingdom, but when you crack open the history books you find that it has its own skeletons. It has relied on a very militant expansionism or very overt "gunboat" diplomacy in order to "acquire" and maintain many of its current provinces. And its recent decisions regarding Hammerfell, Morrowind, and Thalmor presence throughout much of its territory has demonstrated its willingness to sacrifice and/or marginalize its outer territories in order to preserve Cyrodil's power. And let's face it, the Empire, though multi-cultural in some aspects, is very much a kingdom that revolves around Cyrodil. Sure, at times there have been Imperial power brokers who were of a foreign race, but most of the big players are native to Cyrodil. The same generalities can be applied to Skyrim, Morrowind, High Rock, ect. There are varying perspectives and histories on each of the provinces and races; it all depends on who is telling the story. I think Bethesda intentionally wrote the lore that way. And to be honest, I like that there is no simple good vs evil faction. For example I like reading about Tiber Septim and his exploits prior to and during his reign as Emperor; but I also like reading the suggestive hints here and there that he used under-handed tactics to exploit others and enhance his own power and prestige. The game is full of historical ambiguity, and unlike the Star Wars franchise, there is no obvious good side and bad side....much like Game of Thrones (the books not necessarily the tv show) there is something refreshingly original and realistic about creating that kind of fictional environment. Lol, well I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I like the ambiguity too, especially in regards to whose point-of-view you are taking it from. There's that one Skyrim Bard's quest that I find particularly interesting, where ole legendary King Olaf One-Eye turns out to be not quite so legendary after all. I agree that Star Wars is way more black and white in terms of moral relativism(although Rogue One is probably the first one to challenge that at least a little bit), and that TES has much more realistic, and interesting, shades of grey in its narrative. I like that too. I mean, yes, Tamriel used to be a virtual homeland for all mer before humans arrived...from that point of view all humans everywhere in Tamriel could be seen as oppressive conquerors who should gtfo back to Atmora, Yokuda, Akavir(or wherever). Bethesda wants a certain amount of racial conflict to always be present in varying degrees, otherwise the narrative becomes bland real fast. Let's face it, violence and war is fun in a fantasy setting right? That being said(and I also agree that the Empire certainly has its share of skeletons in the closet), I don't see Bethesda going back to the all-encompassing unity of a Tamriel under one nation any time soon. Perhaps in the distant future when they can flesh out other lands like the above-mentioned Akavir and Yokuda. But for now, they need Tamriel in conflict...if only to have something to do in the game lol. I disagree with others' notions of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks as racist bastards, after all they are only talking about Skyrim and not the whole continent. Every race has its homeland, Skyrim is no different. As such, I can totally see Bethesda having the Stormcloaks actually win the Civil War. At the very least, it makes the political map of Tamriel so much more interesting. I think Cyrodiil will shrink in political clout, but not in military power...I see them as the axle upon which the wheel of violence turns on Tamriel. If I were working at Bethesda, I'd pitch the TES 6 story to take place in either Valenwood or Hammerfell. The former as a grass-roots rebellion against their AD masters, or the latter as the courageous defense of a lone province against the full might of the AD. That's assuming they follow chronolgically...Beth tends to jump around the timeline a lot. :P

So can we agree that an alliance is possible? If we take into account what Beth may want to do in the future then we can scrap much of this discussion, after all they can change the course of Tamriel´s history outside of the bounds of logic. Well of course it's possible, I mean we aren't arguing actual history here. And yes, this discussion is mostly moot...much of what we are all talking about here doesn't matter in the least. At best we are arguing about what we think Bethesda's intentions are(both past and future), and at worst what we personally think it should be. It's still interesting to discuss it though. :) If I had to guess, I'd say the future looks like a loose confederation of independent groups coming together to defeat a common enemy. Art reflects reality, and fantasy writing is no exception. Rogue One is a perfect example of this: a small group of freedom fighters desperately rebelling against the all-powerful Empire <-- it's no coincidence that the Rebellion is multicultural and the Empire is homogeneously white. The writers are purposely injecting that not-so-subtle reflection of modern times into the narrative. It's a microcosm of current politics in America, Lucas actually had this same thing in mind for the originals(though to a lesser degree). In Tamriel, the Dominion certainly fits the bill of homogeneous overlords way better than the Empire...I mean the Empire is multicultural by definition. But the Empire is also known for being a heavy-handed and bureaucratic ruler that doesn't always have their respective client-states best interests at heart. This is plainly seen in the White-Gold Concordant. So while they aren't really akin to the Empire of Star Wars, they are certainly much less comparable to the Rebels in terms of character and ideals. This is all speculation of course. But given the current politics of the day, and the fact the entertainment industry historically trends towards the left side of the political spectrum, I'd gamble that the majority of fictional fantasy stories written in the next four years that involve rebellion, revolution, civil war, etc. will have a common theme: multicultural liberty vs mono-cultural order. I hope I'm wrong actually, that would get boring really fast...

But an argument that something can happen, despite no historical precedence for it and no justification for it's occurrence beyond wishful thinking, is a far better one. I never said it was a better one. I just said it was as equally possible as any other scenario. You're the one who said a specific scenario was obviously more inclined to happen than the other, not me. Tamrielic history is not completely anchored to its narrative past. It's arguably more dependent on the whims of Bethesda's writers than anything else. The Warp in the West is a prime example of this. Like I said, it's silly to claim historical precedence as the best reason for narrative continuity in a completely fictional world. If Bethesda thinks a certain plot will fatten their wallets better, they will do so...and the writers will make it work somehow.

I didn't miss that part, I dismissed it. Saying something can never happen because it never has is not a great argument.

Hammerfell has been a legislative territory of the Empire for 700 years, and made no move to secede during the Stormcrown Interregnum. It was not a vassal of the Empire, it was a Province under the authority of the Imperial Crown. It was basically a State government under the Federal, not an independent country of it's own. No, it won't. in fact, it has NEVER happened without the Empire. Even the All Flags Navy, the only time in Tamriel's history that the factions united against a common enemy, was orchestrated by the Alessian Empire. Yes, it will. You seem to think nothing noteworthy ever passes in Tamriel without Imperial authority. While it's true the Empire has been around in one form or another for several eras, there's nothing that says it has to continually be the perpetual leader of all mankind. The "Imperial approach" worked for the writers for a long time, but don't make the mistake of thinking that's all they know. As for Hammerfell, it was more like a Greek city-state. Or at most a Roman province like Gaul or Egypt...but even that's stretching it. To say it is no different than Virginia is silly...that might only be true if the Articles of Confederation were still intact. In fact, they are a lot like Skyrim's holds...only major difference being allegiance to a high king(or Emperor in this case) is not obligatory nor traditional. It's only won through force.

"The Empire agreed to hand over territories already occupied by the enemy, it didn't throw Hammerfell under the bus. When Hammerfell's provincial government refused the terms..." ^-- That's just the kind of imperial language that is the underlying force(besides the Thalmor) behind these rebellions. You speak of those territories as Imperial first and Hammerfell's second, as well as referring to Hammerfell's own government as merely "provincial". The days of Tiber Septims' Fortress Tamriel are long gone, and Imperial provinces are largely sovereign regions these days. And the Empire hasn't exactly had a rosy record of benevolent rule over its political territories. It's like they think they are still England during the golden age of imperialism, even though that era is long gone and they are just another nation like everybody else. The Thalmor know this, which is exactly why they put those conditions in the Concordat...and the Empire took the bait faster than it took the ink to dry. If the Empire wants to continue existing in any substantial form, they need to realize that they can't force unilateral conditions on their willing nations anymore. They need to work with them, not order them around like mere subjects unfit to make their own decisions. If they don't, they will die a slow political death. And the fight will be taken up(perhaps rightly so) by a cooperative effort between all 4 human provinces. That will happen with or without the Empire.

And are likely detrimental to everyone else. It's rather disingenuous to claim that when recent Imperial decisions not only threw Skyrim under the bus, but Hammerfell as well. The Empire's United we Stand, Divided we Fall ship has sailed. It sailed the day they signed the Concordat. Padre86 is right that Ulfric's rebellion is detrimental to mostly just Cyrodiil. It certainly doesn't pertain to Hammerfell, and Skyrim(and most anyone for that matter) is far better off being bloody yet free than being safe yet enslaved. The only other people besides Imperials that Ulfric's rebellion may have been detrimental to are the Bretons...but there has been all of zero news from High Rock concerning the recent Dominion War.

Hi all, I'm having real issues installing MO correctly and was wondering if there was anyone here that could help. I've tried both Gopher's vids as well as the Reddit beginner's guide and I can't seem to figure it out. Any idea if there is an online chat help for this anywhere? Or an alternative guide for the tech-impaired?

I've read that jarl post too, it's a good synopsis of the them. Interesting you chose kindheartedness as a reason for your views, in that regard Elisif certainly fits the bill. I guess I never saw Skyrim as a Tolkien-esque realm where things that are good and fair and bright always triumph in the end. To me, Skyrim is muddy and bloody and cruel. Skyrim's Civil War is the good and bad all thrown in the same pit to fight it out. Skyrim is a contradiction. That's what makes it so interesting and beautiful to me.

Hmm, interesting. I always saw Rikke as a bit of a sell-out, and Galmor as the more noble of the two...you can be violent and noble at the same. And I don't agree the Imperial side has more noble and deserving leaders, but I guess a lot of it is up to interpretation. I do agree on Balgruuf though. He's hands-down one of my favorite NPC's in the game, and sort of personifies the civil war itself. He's wise, fair, very likable, and his dialogue is excellently written. But he's caught in the middle between two opposing factions. He's a tragic figure in a Stormcloak-sided game, and I had a hard time enduring his words to me after I helped storm Dragonreach. But not because I thought he was right about the war, it was simply because I really liked the guy and considered him a friend. Whiterun is arguably the most important city in the game, and you can tell the devs put a lot of work into making it a quality place.

Depending on which side you choose, the game differs its representation of each faction somewhat. Choosing Imperials portrays Ulfric and the Stormcloaks in a negative light, just like choosing the Stormcloaks does the same to Tullius and the Imperials. Knowing this, it's somewhat enlightening to "listen in" on each sides' throne room dialogue before the PC chooses sides. For instance, Tullius' rhetoric is one of simple strategy and an obvious disdain for Nord culture: Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."Tullius: "It's not a cause. It's a rebellion."Rikke: "Call it whatever you like, General. The man's going to try to take Whiterun."Tullius: "Jarl Balgruuf..."Rikke: "Balgruuf refuses the Legion's right to garrison troops in his city. On the other hand, he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfric's claim."Tullius: "Well, if he wants to stand outside the protection of the Empire, fine. Let Ulfric pillage his city."Rikke: "General."Tullius: "You people and your damn Jarls."Rikke: "Sir? You can't force a Nord to accept help he hasn't asked for."Tullius: "If Ulfric's making a move for Whiterun, then we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes, but this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfric's plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll let it seem like it's his idea."Rikke: "Yes, sir."Tullius: "You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."Rikke: "Sir." Ulfric's rhetoric, on the other hand, conveys a real sense of liberation for Skyrim's people as a whole, and not merely a way to make himself High King: Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer."Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"Ulfric: "Soon."Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Dead king Torygg."Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."Galmar: "We're ready when you are."Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."Galmar: "The people are behind you."Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing."Galmar: "Then let them die with their false kings."Ulfric: "We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."Galmar: "What's left of Skyrim to wager?"Ulfric: "They have families to think of."Galmar: "How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families."Ulfric: "Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?"Galmar: "I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that."Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan." As for his use of the Thu'um to kill Torygg, you're right that it wasn't an honorable way to go about it. But even Balgruuf, the only other modern Nord we know of(besides Ulfric) to study with the Greybeards, neither condemns nor praises Ulfric for using the Thu'um on Torygg: "No doubt he thought it was the only way to make his point. And also because he knew he could." He certainly didn't applaud it, but at the very least he did understand it. After all, Skyrim is very much a place where a traditional duel to the death is a legitimate form of royal succession. Ulfric may have been dishonorable, depending on your point of view, but he was still acting within his Nordic rights and traditions.

Eh, the Nords are more akin to Scandinavia than to mainland Europe. Given that almost all of western and northern Europe is "germanic" in descent, I don't see the connection of the Nords to the Nazi's at all. And nationalism, in and of itself, isn't necessarily an evil thing. Since you brought up the Imperial-phile issue, my personal point of view is from someone who's never played any other TES game besides Skyrim. Knowing that, I can say without a doubt that I never once saw Ulfric as racist nor an a**hole. Having never played Oblivion, or even never really knowing anything about TES lore at all when I first played Skyrim, I naturally gravitated towards the Stormcloaks. I have yet, after multiple restarts, to pick Imperials. I don't know if that has anything to do with my TES-games inexperience, or simply personal preference. But it's worth mentioning if only for an unbiased point of view.

I think you're right-on with your first point. The narrative has to serve the overall game design to a certain degree. And that game design lends itself not so much as each game being a "chapter" in the TES novel, but rather an independent story within the history of Tamriel itself. Realistically, Bethesda has to have the protagonist(you) fade out after each game installment for the simple reason that "you" is not one, but many. While the core storyline choices you experience do not waver from player to player, the way that storyline is engaged and interpreted certainly is. Such is the nature of story-driven RPG's in which the PC plays the part of world-hero...making that hero adhere to a strict personal narrative may solve some questions of lore, but it's rather lousy game-design. You're second point I think is off, somewhat because of what I've just written. I really don't think that the LDB, in terms of the canon of the lore, is supposed to be master of all possible factions/cities/armies/etc. of Skyrim simply because they all are available. Giving the PC choices on what guild to join or what city to Thane is part of the game design and not meant to be taken like the LDB does all of those at the same time. For instance, it is rather impractical and illogical for a PC to be both Leader of the Companions and Archmage of the College of Winterhold at the same time. They are almost complete opposites in terms of PC character development and skills, and a realistic playthrough of the game probably shouldn't include both of those at the same time. Of course players do that, simply because they want to experience everything there is to be had on Skyrim. And there's nothing mechanically wrong with that, Skyrim has a great storyline after all. But realistically, in the setting of the game, it would be quite silly for the LDB to, say, be Thane of all 9 Holds simultaneously. That's just a choice the game offers you for the sake of fun, it's not meant to be taken as historical fact. By contrast, it's no coincidence that the only "factions" that you can only choose one side on are central to the main storyline. There's a reason you have to choose Stormcloaks or Imperials, Dawnguard or Volkihar, and Blades or Greybeards. Otherwise the story wouldn't make sense. Of these, only the last choice could be interpreted in a way in which you could realistically side with both...which is the entire premise of the Parthunaax Dilemma mod. I mean, that dragon isn't really evil, he's trying to help you stop Alduin, so it makes sense you shouldn't have to kill him to stay on good terms with the Blades. But it doesn't matter one iota whether or not you are a thief, wizard, warrior, assassin, or bard to the main storyline. Same with which city you are Thane of, or even if which god you worship. Those choices not relevant to the main storyline are there simply to give the PC a choice on how he or she wants to play the game and engage the story.

Open Cities sounds good but I always heard it's really hard on your rig...I could be wrong. Not to mention dragons being able to decimate the town. =P SkyBirds is okay as long as you realize the mod may require occasional deleting/reloading because of supposed heavy script save-bloat. RND hasn't been updated in a while, and requires a lot of patches, but I think there's possibly an RND2 out though. I use iNeed, but am really waiting for Chesko's Last Seed...should be out by summer. I don't see any major conflicts with your list, but I'm a modding newb. I know you've probably heard this before, but Frostfall and Campfire are major keystone mods for a heavy RPG play-through. They are a bit more "survivalist" leaning though, and that doesn't seem like where you're leaning based on your mod list. You might want to try out some housing mods to make sure they work with your followers, it sounds like your style is more town/city based. It's too bad no one else more knowledgeable than myself answered your post, I'm sure others have great ideas.