Vermithraxxx

That’s the basics but it seems just from this thread there are a lot of ways to get in trouble. NMM, in trying to be ‘simpler’, seems to hide things the user needs to know. I still consider myself a newb so please correct me if the following is in error in any way. Probably one can download the updated version first and then deactivate the current installed version without messing things up (ie, the first two steps can be done in any order). As pointed out we need to know if the update replaces the original or is a patch to the original. Hopefully the mod author is clear on that. If the later I don’t think we do anything with the original mod just download and activate the update like any other ‘patch’, run Loot, and rebuild our Bashed Patch if the leveled lists are affected (again the mod author should really tell us but from experience we will start to know what kind of mods affect leveled lists). Note I leaned early _not_ to accept Wrye Bash’s suggested merging of plug-ins and just let WB bash the leveled lists. Merge plugins in a more thoughtful way with Merge Plugins or something (Mod Organizer really shines here as a lot of adjustments to a large mod can be merged together right from the start). Updating with NMM is just one segment of a process. Now all of this assumes a mod with .esp files (or plugins) and mainly is about the plugin. With meshes and textures involved NMM will ask if we want to overwrite if the meshes and textures with the same file names are in the game already. And this is where it gets complicated because the mesh and texture part is best done in chronological order ending with the mesh / texture you want (start with large M/T mods and overwrite with the smaller M/T mods for more specific items as you build your mod list). Now we want to update a mod in the middle of our nice and neat chronologically installed mod list. Well to keep and overwrite everything how we figured it out before means we have to remember or keep some record of how we did it before and that may mean the reinstallation of several mods to get the overwrite sequence correct. More complication: mods are dynamic with some authors continuing their support (kudos to them) and others having dropped out years ago but leaving still some very good mods behind. The patches that bridge all of these versions of different mods is going to get screwed up. For an intermediate mod ‘user’ like myself it starts to get problematic depending on patches being available for every combination of even the most popular mods. So I think we really need to ask ourselves _do we really want to update_? We need to read the description page, the change logs, the forums, and take a look at the file types to make an informed decision. At a certain point I may have learn how to make my own patches. And then Bethesda just had to make SSE which divided the efforts of the modding community. Updating is not isolated to the single affected mod. Just take a look at something like AOS2 and see how many patches are involved. My eyeballs go in all sorts of directions trying to keep track of what intertwines with what sometimes. Just installing mods (not making mods) becomes a full time hobby independent of the game itself. I wrote this long semi-rant in the hopes of getting feedback that I understand things for the most part.

Well a late response is still a good response since it is free education. ______ It's always a good idea to understand why you're doing what you're doing, but most of the time you should be safe following the instructions. ______ A ‘clean save’ then is simply a risk reduction practice and it doesn’t do entirely what the name implies. The only real ‘clean save’ is the save before the mod was installed. A ‘clean save’ amounts to stopping the mod script if that’s available in the MCM to do, and then existing the cell or cell(s) the mod affects (ie, where its script run like outside vs inside) along with anything of the player’s possessions (ie, move your spouse if you want to update the player home) and making a new save. Back in game there is a wait time also to allow the changed cells to reset. Is ‘updating’ basically the same as uninstalling and installing such that all the same precautions apply? The updating procedure with NMM (should have learned MO from the beginning but here we are) seems not well explained and is inconsistent with its message ‘Earlier version of mod already installed. Do you wish to update?’ Updating is where more of my focus is. I’ve actually uninstalled very few mods. Identifying a mod where all of this should be done or not seems to be key (not every mod author points this out, so that source is not dependable especially with earlier mods). One could assume every mod is like this although that seems a bit tedious and excessive. Obviously mods without an .esp seem fairly safe to uninstall or update as needed without too much worry right? But not all mods with an .esp are scripted either. That is the crossover point that is a bit fuzzy. _______ I suppose [save Game Script Cleaner] should be a consideration whenever you uninstall a mod. . . Save bloating was a bigger deal back before we had so many tools to deal with it. If you run the game with SKSE, for example, it will automatically "debloat" your save to some extent as you're playing. If I were you, I'd just run it whenever I have a problem or find a reason to. _______ I haven’t used SGSC in ‘anger’ yet – just opened in once. This begs the question though of when should I be concerned about the save file size. You didn’t comment on my 29k size which has increased to that point recently with Frostfall, Hunterborn, RND2, etc. FINIS should be run every time a new animation is installed I take it and Wryebash to update the bashed patch anytime a mod updates the leveled lists. Well thanks for your help again. As you can see my questions are ringing out. There are mixed messages from all the sources on the web, sometimes to the point of polar opposites. I’ve seen multiple times that one is stuck with the mods one adds, do not remove them or you’re just asking for trouble. And then Gopher comments in one of his videos that he is installing / uninstalling 50-100 mods a week. What’s the worst that can happen? One’s current save game is corrupted and one has to start a new game. If enough save games are available it is possible to go back prior to the problem. It’s good to know when the blowup happened and eliminate the mods or conflict that caused it. But the very worst case is starting with a fresh install and rebuilding one’s mod list. I’ve had a few crashes but not near what others have reported. Many must just install mods helter skelter without any thought at all and that’s what gets one into serious trouble. Its hard to know what went wrong at that point because this built up over time without attention by the player. I can sympathize with the experts trying to help in this situation because its difficult to even know where to start.

Thanks for your lengthy reply. It appears this is not foggy just because of me or the scope of the subject but there no real black and white rules for a lot of this. I re-watched Gopher’s vid on NMM but it is too basic. ____ Well, there are exceptions to this but basically a esm is a master plugin and esp is a slave plugin that modifies or adds to master plugins. ____ Ah- ‘m’ for master [plugin] and ‘p’ for [slave] plugin. I leaned this sometime in the distant past. ____ The only way a mesh or texture mod doesn't need a esp is when they straight-up replace an existing mesh or texture. ____ That sounds like a direct overwrite which begs the question of recovering the vanilla files if the mod is removed. Is this really what happens with a non-esp mod? Doesn’t sound good. So the role of an esp is literally a temporary redirection for (or addition to) the original vanilla files – it doesn’t actually overwrite anything just changes the file pointer. It appears that removing or adding pure graphics mesh and texture mods, even those with an esp, is fairly safe to do anytime or am I jumping to conclusions? ____ Scripts are no more dangerous to your game than meshes or textures. ____ Yes I gathered that. Any actual player interaction is likely due to scripts as opposed to simple eye candy. Scripted mods then are ‘dynamic’. They have a change of state ‘memory’ that is recorded with each save. Meshes and textures are ‘static’ in that they remain the same since they were installed. This is what makes updating and / or removing scripted mods more problematic. So it is good to know if a mod has a script. Is the only way to know that to look at the file type extensions (ie, pex)? The more popular mods that have evolved over years and kept up to date usually have fairly good updating / uninstalling directions from the author but not all. Yes I read the forum section of the mods to see what others are having trouble with. Many of those problems however are specific to the poster’s unique setup and without knowing that (and the poster many times don’t know what is causing the conflict) its shrugging shoulders time and simply deciding to take the plunge or not. I am trying to educate myself a bit more so I understand what might cause problems not just complain about them. _____ What you've described is called a "clean save." Basically, you load the game with the plugin removed and save the game again. Then you reactivate the plugin and load from your "clean save" so that it can start fresh. If a mod requires a clean save to upgrade, the procedure is always the same unless specified otherwise. _____ This sounds like standard operating procedure for removing or updating any mod with a script – but not necessary with just meshes and textures (BTW is the two basic file types we are dealing with: graphics in the form of meshes and textures (dds, nif, and wav for audio) and scripts (pex) or are there more? How does bas file types fit in the picture?). Some instructions / recommendations go further: they ask you to place your character in a cell not affected by the mod or undo anything affected by the mod (maybe dismiss your followers for example). Furthermore there might be an instruction wait a certain time for cells to ‘respawn’. In these more complicated cases I guess what you are telling me is to follow the mod author’s direction. There really isn’t rules of thumb one might follow at this point. There is a tool out there (I’ve got it installed I think) called the save game script cleaner. Is that something we should be using once in awhile or only for severely bloated saves? My save size is ~29k right now with 1000 hours in on this play through (yes it is a lot – this is my test bed for mods). _____ Finally, I haven't merged many plugins except for my own. . . If I were you, I'd just merge really simple mods like armors, weapons, texture replacers, that kind of thing. _____ What bloats the esp count is patches. A substantial mod might have three, four, or more each with its esp. Are you suggesting though that I could merge all my weapon mods into a single esp (given I don’t plan on removing any of those)? Nice, but with updates I would have to rebuild the merge. Par for the course I suppose. You didn’t mention Wryebash and the bashed patch. A lot of material to cover I know. One problem I am am having with all these tools is they overlap in function. Would be nice to have a recommend list somewhere with what each tool is best to be used for. Anyhow it appears tat the bashed patch is used to merge leveled lists otherwise the latest mod in the load order that impacts leveled lists will overwrite what came prior and thus leave stuff out. So my understanding is use Wrybash to make a bashed patch when you install a mod that affects leveled lists right? Thanks for your response. Very helpful.

I am not a modder. I am simply a mod user (Skyrim). That in itself has become a complicated hobby. I have ~160 mods and ~100 plugins and I use NMM, Loot, Merge Plugins minimally, and Wryebash minimally. I've watched Gopher videos, Gamer Poet videos, Dirty Weasel videos etc etc. It is all a bit foggy. There needs to be a modding 101 somewhere that explains the file structure of [bethesda] mods since this is so important to load order, what, when and how to remove mods, update mods, merge mods, etc etc. Now if someone can point me to such a place fine. If not then, at the risk of supreme boredom and much rolling of eyeballs, I would like to ask someone to please explain the different mod file types and how those relate to manipulating mods (for the user, not the modder). For example what is the difference between an .esm and .esp? Why do graphic mods that have basically meshes and textures need an .esp? If I remove a graphics mod that overwrote my vanilla meshes and textures are the old files still there? And that evil scripting. How do we know which mods have scripts? I look in the preview file contents and look for .pex files is all I know. There are complicated instructions on dealing with these - the general word is once installed don't uninstall - simply retreat to a save prior to installation if you must. Many mod authors do not include specific uninstall - unactivate - reinstall (needed to reactive a FOMOD if something that interacts has changed) - update instructions so one wonders how to do all that with any given mod. And lastly for this starting post is the complexity of mod interaction and the innumerable patches. This increases one's .esps geometrically and begs for merging. Ah yes which files can I merge? Enough. I'll see if anyone helps out. I'll try Gopher and Gamer Poets again meanwhile - maybe the STEP site. Thanks in advance.

Finished all Soul Cairn quests including the infamous 'Impatience of a Saint' with Saint Jiub's Opus. Didn't have the R6025 error for a long time. Guess what - it's back. Happened on the road from Riften to Castle DawnGuard. Happened just when I turned and started to move. Now I just finished installing several mods including replacing one character height disparity mod with another - which entailed deactivating the first one (i got the save game message that a mod was gone that the latest save depended on). So - the Soul Cairn quests may be a common symptom but evidently the cause is more general.

I was tempted to avoid the tedious implementation of DynDOLOD but - Having got the graphics looking good enough to enjoy running around Skyrim without fast travel I have noticed on a regular basis this awful transition between world cells. What is a smooth side of a hill one second has all kinds of detailed outcroppings the next; what are the slim ghosts of branches one second are several full size trees the next ,etc, etc. If I was driving a car instead of jogging, or even riding a horse, trees appear so suddenly sometimes I would surely run into one. Details of the upcoming terrain is constantly 'popping' into existence not that far in front of my character. The graphics is great when everything is close in, ie with a short line of sight. 1. Have I identified the problem correctly (LOD, distance terrain, transition between cells)? 2. If so will DynDOLOD fix most of this?

Having the same problem, the same C+++ run time error code, but not as frequent as everyone else it seems. Did not have this particular error on my old hardware (windows 7 Pentium with old fashioned hard drive and who knows what graphics). With my new machine (i5 6600k; 16GM memory; SSD, and GTX1070 no less) and by following everyone's stability guides I've eliminated CTDs, white screens of death, and all purple objects. So now this starts out of the blue - I already probably had 600 hours in on this play through without seeing it. I already had the first trip to the soul cairn completed. I've already summoned the undead dragon 3 times. My R6025 error seems to happen erratically in different parts of Skyrim and I can't pin down any common symptoms. It happens maybe once in 5-6 hours of play time. No one in all this time has come up with a solution it seems from reading this thread it seems to be a deeply embedded programing error of some kind but why did I not see before I had ~70 mods? it does seem to happen right after a transition when I start moving; once was in Dragons Bridge and once in a Nordic ruin moving from one room to the next. I'll pay more attention before posting again but it looks like for now we just have to put up with it but I don't think the root cause is associated with any DLC. Edit: Read the thread referred to by alt3rn1ty in post #16. I have two of Jiub's journal pages in my character's inventory and have not gone back to finish that quest. That was 100s of hours of play time ago. My R6025 errors started long after I was out of the soul cairn. However, I have the only recognizable common symptoms and will proceed to finish the soul cairn including Juib and see if that works.

Been doing my own troubleshooting by deactivating each mod while the other remains active. It is in fact the combination together that is causing the problem. Each mod on its own seems to work OK. The RSPatch.esp file is an empty plugin. I would like to move RSUSLEEP_Update above ELE_Legendary_Lite but LOOT disagrees. I think this bug was present before installing the USLEEP patch anyway. My only recourse is to deactivate one of the two mods. The subtle improvements the mod authors are trying to implement are way over shadowed by the distraction of interiors going randomly light and dark. I think this might also be what others have referred to as 'flickering'. I am disappointed at the lack of a response. I am quite willing to be told I have made some obvious user error but as of right now I cannot agree this mod combination is problem free as implied by the interior lighting mod recommendations out there. The particular mod versions involved are: Enhanced Lighting for ENB - Lite v0_95b only interior lighting; Relighting Skyrim no JIT v4.0.1 I may be I have discovered the cause: I had two RS .esps active, one for Skyrim and one for Skyrim legendary. Deactivating the Skyrim only esp seems to have fixed things at a couple of locations where I know the bug to occur. Now how I got both of these esps installed is a mystery, but potential users really need to pay attention to the load order instructions and check it manually not just depend on NMM and LOOT to get it right.

OK no replies to this here or in the 'Relighting Skyrim' mod forum. I had a recent very clear example in a Nord ruin dungeon: I am in a fairly large room looking straight at a torch on the opposite wall that is obviously a lighting source - the light pattern on the wall and on the floor is in a circular pattern centered on the torch. I turn my character's viewpoint just slightly to the right and presto - the entire wall and floor go black just as if someone turned off a switch on a genuine light bulb. There are no other objects obstructing view so no change of vantage point in this case can be affected by intervening objects. What the heck is going on?

Gopher's video series on NMM is for several versions ago of course though still very helpful. The question I have concerns mod updating. As per the video I download the new version with the manager, disable the old version, and then install the new version. Now a box pops up informing me a previous version already exists - do I want to update? Clicking 'yes' is not working - NMM is getting the versions confused at least as far as labeling goes. One of the two cannot be accessed for removal or installation after. Now this happened on several attempts with different mods so I am assuming I am doing something wrong - perhaps with these later versions of NMM I _do not_ disable the old version at all. Clicking 'no' installs the mod 'normally' it says and I have been able to get by with this for now. The problem with a new install with a complex mod that overwrites other mods is I am asked which to overwrite and which to not and I have to figure all that out again. Unless I can find info on what I did before or what I should do now I may end up with a conflict I did not have before updating. All very time consuming. I would like to just click 'yes' and have NMM just change what needs to change which is how it is designed to work I presume.

Have you tried going into your SkyrimPrefs.ini located in C:\Users\YourName\Documents\my games\skyrim and changing the line [Display] bFull Screen=1 from 1 to 0 You can also change the window size to whatever you want by changing [Display] isize=Hxxx isize=Wxxx Took a look at SkyrimPrefs.ini and guess what - bFull Screen=0. With Firefox and File Explorer both open decided to try again and guess what - I can Alt tab between the (3) open programs. Without any other open programs / folders I cannot use Alt Tab - Skyrim stays full screen. This is a little different than the way I am used to Windows working. A 'borderless' Window does not have the usual controls accessible for resizing or minimizing the window evidently. I take it Full Screen=0 is windowed mode and I am getting any stability benefits that comes from that. The display size then is what i could set the game to run at leaving some free desktop space for access to other icons. Bravo - everything seems to be working - I just needed educating as usual. Thanks aragorn58. Nice avatar and forum user name BTW.

I'll start this as a comment - but I think it is a bug. I have RS and ELE - Lite installed together as has been recommended in a couple of places. I have run LOOT a couple of time to make sure of the load order - generally RS first and ELE after. Upon playing I noticed sudden drastic interior light changes like light sources being turned on and off depending on the direction my character was facing - a little twist of the mouse and one area of the room goes completely dark from well lit. This was noticed in the Riften keep first and I use the right hand corner of the main hall just as you enter as my check point. Facing the throne from this corner I can get the back third of the hall to go dark or light depending on angle of view - and its very exact. I've noticed this in Inns now and other building more and more. So I checked my load order manually. There at least 6 separate .esp files involved: Relighting_Skyrim at 10; RelightingSkyrim_Legendary at 17; ELE_Legendary_Lite at 18; RSUSLEEP_Update at 39; RSPatch at 58; ELECompatibility_RSUSLEEP at 63 I think the second 3 are from the 'Relighting Skyrim - Updated for USLEEP' mod by E10X11. Can anyone help sort this out?

Until now I have not clicked the 'windowed mode' box in the opening screen options. But it has been a pain when I wanted to google something to stop the game and restart it (I only have one monitor). So I decided to try One Tweak. I have SKSE installed. Downloaded and installed One Tweak with NMM. Started Skyrim from within Steam and clicked the 'windowed mode' box in the options screen, clicked OK, and exited. Did not play. Started the game with my SKSE desktop shortcut - Alt Tab doesn't work. So, exited and launched Skyrim with the original non-SKSE shortcut from the desktop to bring up the initial screen. Went into options, checked the 'windowed mode' box, clicked OK, and exited. Launched the game with the SKSE shortcut again - Alt Tab does not work. The reason for all this back-and-forth is the initial small splash screen with 'play', 'options', etc does not appear with the SKSE shortcut. That screen is bypassed and I go right to the full screen. Using that shortcut to launch Skyrim has always been that way since i installed SKSE. Never thought anything of it till now. The second funny thing I noticed was a a funny thing that didn't happen - when I checked the 'windowed mode' box either on Steam or via my Skyrim non-SKSE desktop shortcut my resolution was not reset to a lower value like Cal at Dirty Weasel reported in his video. It seems I cannot get my game into windowed mode. Any help would be appreciated. I am running Windows 10 and I did check the functioning of Alt-Tab with other windows.

Yes thanks for the above. I will install the SPM and follow the excellent modding guide on NEXUS and see what happens. It is a shame I cannot utilize all my VRAM but until I get a 4k monitor I'm thinking it may not be a big problem as long as I watch my mods. I won't bother with a dual boot for now either.

Of course just after I posted I find a thread on this very subject. Just to confirm - this is a _VRAM_ limit not a _RAM_ limit. I do not plan on 4K anytime soon; 2K will be enough and to do that i need a new monitor. In that case do I need to limit my modding in any fashion?

I just built a new computer on purpose for modded Skyrim and Witcher 3. Not knowing any better I installed windows 10. Kind of like it actually. Now, in researching what graphics mods to install i find that Windows 10 is limited to 4 GB RAM + VRAM with Directx 9. Is this problem real? If this limit is real does it matter? A few specifics to get started: Gigabyte GA-Z170x-Gaming 5 MB i5-6600K unlocked but not OCed 16 GB Ram Samsung 850 EVO SSD GTX 1070 GPU Successfully reinstalled Skyrim from Steam including SKSE, NEXUS mod manager, LOOT, TESVedit, and my old backup files. Have a few mods, but nothing graphically intensive yet. Have been running without crashes for a week on and off. I don't even know what DirectX I have but everything is working.(have not tried any Total War games yet). So, before I delve deep into ENB and graphics modding do I have a problem with the OS that needs to be fixed? What tools could I install that would let me know of any potential problems (like RAM usage etc)? Thanks in advance