Padre86

From everything you've said, it seems that you're more aligned with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks rather than the Imperials, despite your initial statement to the contrary. I agree with most of what you say: there really is no true right or wrong when looking at the Empire vs. Stormcloak conflict, rather varying shades of gray. In most of my playthrough's (especially Nordic or 'honorable' warrior characters) I find myself much more sympathetic to the Stormcloaks for a variety of reasons: they are the underdogs; they have legitimate grievances (even if some of the members are flawed); they are smart and willing to talk, instead of killing everyone who disagrees with them (meeting with Empire, Thalmor and priests of High Rothgar, giving Jarl Balgruuf time to make a decision). I have found myself playing neutral or with the Empire at times, though not as often; it all depends on the character I've built (most are inclined to be melee warrior types). I will dispute two things you said in your post: 1) The Empire is not nearly as efficient nor as capable (administratively or militarily) as it was in years past. I think many in the Legion are generally, good, honorable people who are trying to do right by the Empire. But having just taken massive losses, that force is a shadow of its former self. Moreover, it's government had seen a gradual decline in its capabilities since the end of the Septim dynasty (that has been hinted at in various in game sources) and certainly the capital's sacking during the Great War didn't help with that. I think Mede is vastly overrated, by players and loyal NPC's. He abandoned and alienated one of his main allies (Redguards) who ended up fighting the Thalmor to a stalemate mostly on their own,he lost the Imperial capital (though he did get it back, with a lot of help from the Nords),and even after destroying the main the Thalmor army, he still negotiated an embarrassingly submissive treaty (White Gold Concordat) which basically allows Thalmor agents to roam willy-nilly around the Empire, killing off anyone they don't like (Blades, Talos worshippers, random Nords) and enforcing Thalmor edicts (prohibition of Talos worship).This last point of contention really seals the deal for me as a Nord. There is absolutely no reason a true Nord would allow foreign agents free access to Skyrim to capture, interrogate and kill Nords and enforce their foreign decrees. The Thalmor basically have a death camp killing Nords in the Nordic homeland. Even if there are some things to dislike about Ulfric, that right there is cause enough for me to join the Stormcloak cause. 2) Ulfric (not sure about how much Galmar knows) definitely knows the Thalmor are a manipulative force behind much of the ongoing tensions. He was tricked into thinking that he divulged critical information during the water and for a time was providing some contact to Thalmor agents. But the Thalmor diaries/dispatches are very clear that Ulfric has broken off his contact with the Thalmor (likely because he understood, at least partially, their intent). The Thalmor dispatches are also very clear that either side winning the war would be detrimental to the Thalmor cause. The Thalmor want Ulfric to exist, they don't want him to win. Their manipulation is limited to fomenting trouble, not creating an independent Noridc state. And it's debatable how much influence the Thalmor have truly had in all of this, as its quite obvious that even without Ulfric's leadership, there are many Nords who are dissatisfied with how the Imperials kowtowed to the Thalmor after the War. I personally think that the Thalmor dispatches on Ulfric being an 'agent' are over-analyzed by too many. Ulfric's initial fault was hardly reprehensible; many people, even the strongest and most honorable, will fold under torture. His guilt and shame over the issue was more detrimental to him personally than it was to any allied forces who may have suffered from the Thalmor's gain (as the information was dated and useless). It's not at all clear in what capacity the Thalmor had contact with Ulfric after they released him, though he has broken off contact. It is quite clear that Ulfric dislikes the Empire, hates the Thalmor, and wants Skyrim to be free of foreign influence. It's not as though Ulfric's, and by extension, the Stormcloaks' cause is entirely derived from a seed the Thalmor planted...the movement itself is quite organic to the prevailing mood that exists in Nordic society.

The Stormcloaks are nationalists, though that word has come to have negative implications in recent history. Historically speaking, many of the extreme, right-wing groups (Nazi's, KKK and other race-oriented groups) could be considered nationalists, but not all nationalist groups could, or should, be considered to be part of the extreme right. The Stormcloaks care about an independent Skyrim. Excepting a few drunks in Windhelm, they really don't go out of their way to harass or persecute other ethnic groups. Compared to the very bloody ethnic conflicts that have taken place in Tamriel, historically and in recent years (Dunmer vs Argonians, Dunmer slavery in general, Thalmor purges and views of racial superiority), I'd say the views of the Stormcloaks are quite tame and moderate. They're nationalists. There is no indication whatsoever that they're planning enslavement or racial genocide against the other races.

Logistics and environmental issues do factor into warfare and sieges in Skyrim, that said, the Nords, as a people, are used to fighting with each other and against common enemies in such an environment. I think the real stalemate of the civil war has less to do with the environmental and logistical issues and more to do with the insurgency/heart-and-minds aspect. Militarily, the Empire could likely surge more forces into Skyrim in an attempt to overwhelm and defeat the rebellion, but there is the concern (sometimes voiced by Nordic soliders in the Legion) that such a move would simply add more fuel to the Stormcloak fire. Many holds and people in Skyrim, as you noted, simply want to be left alone. A forceful and overbearing move by the Empire could easily persuade many of them to join the Stormcloak camp, which is what the Empire is trying to avoid. Bandits are, and always have been an issue, in Skyrim and though out Tamriel. But to suggest that they are a real threat to the government forces (of the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or any of the individual holds) is inaccurate and unrealistic. If you want to play a mod where they level up and get ridiculous armor and weapons, that's your call. Me personally, I don't think its realistic or lore-friendly that they be carrying high-level armor/weapon sets or that they should be able to defeat guard/army NPC's. In fact, i think it should be the opposite where the bandits are barely scraping by and carry low-end stuff while the guards/army NPC's should be allowed access to better gear. But that's a personal choice for each player to make. As for there being a 3rd option where all "factions" leave Skyrim to the people, that's basically the same as letting the Stormcloaks win. Skyrim has always had a system of semi-independent Holds which was subject to a high king's rule through a feudal relationship. Jarl Elisif would never be taken seriously as Skyrim's ruler, with or without the Empire's backing. So if you want an option where a high king rules over the Jarls and Holds of an independent Skyrim, Ulfiric and the Stormcloaks are the best option and closest option that brings you to that reality.

As role-playing Nord, I think the Empire's dissolution has been long overdue, and I think many regional kingdoms/factions (nords, redguards, dunmer) have a right to govern themselves and look to their own interests. As general Elder Scrolls enthusiast, I think a breakup of the Empire lends itself to a more dynamic and more refreshing plot and lore development for the gameplay. The Empire has been a dominating social/cultural construct within almost every single Elder Scrolls game (excepting Elder Scrolls Online, which isn't a true Elder Scrolls game IMHO). I've enjoyed having that presence in earlier games as it gave me play style options: I could play as a character who hates the Empire's law and order (assassin, vampire, thief); or as someone who works with the Empire (fighter's guild, mage, main quest line); or even someone who is totally ambivalent and neutral on the issue. But I think that mechanic and lore structure has worn itself thin and I'd like to see a new setting/environment where there are different factions/kingdoms with the potential for competing national objectives and even potential conflict....I really think such a setting would really freshen up and bring new life into the game universe....IMHO of course.

Yes and no. I think what he was getting at is that it would make much sense to fight for a side that hates you. The Stormcloaks are distrustful of all elves, not just the Thalmor/High elves. The Stormcloaks, and Nords in general, are distrustful of and maybe don't like all the Dunmer refugees streaming into their lands. But that doesn't equate to wanting to hunt them down and wipe them out (which is what was implied by the Nazi reference). If a Nazi reference is going to be made to any faction within TES, it would be the Thalmor. The fact is, the Dunmer, and many other races, live throughout Skyrim. There is even a significant population of Dunmer in Windhelm. The politics of the Dunmer ghetto there aside, this shows that Ulfric and the Nords are at least capable of tolerating the Dunmer presence (one could even infer that there must have been some benign intent on Ulfric's part to let them into the city in the first place, though this isn't explicity stated in the game or lore). As well, there is a Dunmer who owns a farm near the Stormcloak capitol and many other Dunmer hold important positions in other holds (the housecarl in Whiterun). Comparing the Stormcloaks to Nazi's would imply that there is some organized effort on their part to confine, enslave or totally wipe out the Dunmer population in Skyrim. But there is no evidence of such in the game or lore. The most you can point to are a few drunk Nords giving some Dunmer some grief at the entrance of Windhelm, but it isn't being sanctioned by Ulfric and there are even other Nords within the city who don't approve of such behavior. The Nords are a tribal society for sure; they're into their own culture and identity in a big way. Heck there is even some tribalism among the different holds and clans within Skyrim. That said, they will and have given their respect to foreign individuals who have proven themselves in battle or have otherwise earned respect. I think the most defining example of this is when they finally defeated the Snow Elf prince. They hunted the Snow Elves down like vermin, but out of respect for the Snow Elf prince's martial prowess (he slew many a Nordic warrior) they gave him a proper burial to honor him. Race and cultural pride has significance to many Nords, but they are willing to overlook such things when a person earns their respect.

Not a valid comparison (comparing the Stormcloaks to Nazi's) for one. Two, play how you want to play. Three. You don't have to join either side if you don't want to. IMHO, a Dunmer would be a perfect character for playing a neutral mercenary or assassin. The Dunmer are basically refugees who have been driven from their lands by natural disaster. They have no direct dog in the Thalmor vs Empire fight, and by extension they really aren't too concerned with whether or not Ulfric's rebellion succeeds. Morrowind, and the Dunmer, have always been a people unto themselves. Even when the Empire originally "conquered" Morrowind, it was really more of a diplomatic agreement and the country and its people maintained a great deal of autonomy from the Empire.

TES is a racially distinct and divided setting, and I'm not sure it's really considered "wrong" in TES to dislike or even hate other races. The Empire is a melting pot because by its very nature it has to be. And the Nords (like the Altmer) are xenophobic because that's kind of how most of them just are...they were written to be that way. But I really don't think our own Earthly experience with racism has anything to do with some completely fictional fantasy setting like TES. For one thing, RL racism is a misnomer...we are all the same race. In TES, they are actually different races (vast DNA differences if you will) and even those are divided into subgroups with distinctly different physical abilities (humans: Nord, Redguard, Imperial, Breton). A Nord being "racist" to a Breton would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a chimpanzee. And a Nord being "racist" to an Argonian would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a dolphin. Games like TES (and the vast majority of all fantasy rpgs for that matter) rely on distinct species, or "races", for both visual variety as well as the more important aspect of giving the player much needed customization and uniqueness when engaging the narrative. Plus, it's just cool to get to RP things that look elvish, dwarvish, feline, etc. I mean, if you can't support a certain culture in a fantasy RPG setting because there's evidence of even minor discrimination to another "race", then you might think about playing a different game. Although you'd be hard put to find one that is 100% non-discriminatory/racist. It's a game. It's not meant to mirror real life. 1) I really don't think the Nords are, by nature, xenophobic. I think there are some Nords who are using Ulfric's campaign as an excuse to act like a$$holes to certain non-Nord residents, but that's only a small minority of a certain city. I think Nords rather are proud of their heritage and their culture. Having pride in one's culture and being xenophobic can sometimes overlap, but the two aren't necessarily one in the same. The Nords respect martial prowess, honor, loyalty, great feats of courage and strength. They're basically TES' version of the vikings (or at least how we have pictured the vikings). The Nords can and do respect non-Nord races that espouse the characteristics they hold so dear; there are examples of this in many of the holds. The Nords also have no ambition of racial/cultural purges and world domination, unlike the Altmer who are explicity trying to conquer the known world and subjugate all non-elf races. All that said, TES is a medieval world, and people are largely unconnected with one another due to time of travel, geography, ect. So it is to be expected that the people of one culture or race would be at less skeptical, if not outright hostile, towards peoples of another race or culture. The fact that non-Nord races are allowed to reside in Skyrim (heck even full-blown Orc camps are allowed there) shows that the Nords have at least some measure of tolerance for other peoples. 2) While we are all one human race, there is in fact a lot of genetic variation among the different peoples of the world. It is a subject that has, in recent times, become taboo to discuss (largely because of PC culture), but they do exist. The differences in racial genetics, or whatever you want to call it, has a scientific basis to it. 3) There is a history of racial conflict in Skyrim. Nords vs Snow Elves. Dunmer vs Argonians. Altmer vs everyone. Orcs vs Bretons. TES and all of its games were intentionally written with these kinds of tensions and conflicts in mind. And I don't think it's far fetched that TES writers borrowed ideas from real world history to develop these lore aspects.

Solitude isn't really a "healthy" court if you think about it, rather it's a court that is simply trying to survive and maintain relevance. Thalmor gaining influence over Skyrim's nobility through bribery and intimidation (think about where their embassy is, it's basically right on Solitude's doorstep for a very good reason), Imperials basically calling all the big shots and making most of the important decisions relating to defense and national policy, dragons, bandits, thalmor hit squads and Falmer running rampant throughout the province....Solitude's so-called leadership hasn't assumed much of an active role in most of these pressing issues, or if they have it's minor and mostly inconsequential. They are a puppet government, and maybe there are a few good members of that court, but they're focused on keeping their heads above water...they're not at all focused on building a better, unified Skyrim. As a Nord, I'd take a somewhat flawed but capable and ambitious leader over a soft-spoken, inexperienced and incompetent one any day of the week. Elisif is the former king's wife.....that doesn't make her a leader just like a first lady isn't considered a leader simply because she is married to the president. Skyrim, regardless of which allegiance it goes with, needs a strong leader and Elisif isn't it.

I agree with most of the above. I'll never claim Ulfric is a saint. He's ambitious, arrogant, and somewhat selfish in his motivations to overthrow the Imperials. But, and this is a big but, if you spend anytime listening to the NPC conversations in the Blue palace, you quickly learn that Ulfric's comments about the queen and the imperial-supported regime have some credibility. Elisif is quite incompetent, the Imperials know this, and she is treated pretty much like a puppet ruler. That, and from the main quest, it is quite apparent that some of her court nobility are trying to get friendly with the Thalmor. Likewise, other pro-Imperial Nordic characters seem to condone, if not outright support, some of the Thalmor actions in Skyrim (the Battleborns knew exactly where the Thalmor were keeping some of the Greymane's but said nothing about it to anyone). So when Ulfric makes statements about 'Skyrim for the Nords' and getting rid of foreign influence, while there is some political rhetoric to some of that, there is also some truth in what he is saying. There are a lot of Imperial and Thalmor power plays going on in Skyrim. That's why when I roleplay as a Nord, it's very easy for me to overlook Ulfric's character faults; at the end of the day he is fighting for a cause which a true Nord can appreciate.

I don't recall that particular interaction, but I do notice throughout the game many Nords have some skepticism or indifference to the 9 Divines (which was very much a product of Alessia combining some deities from the Elven belief system and some from the human belief system). Many Nords seem to have greater respect for the traditional Nordic gods and goddesses, some of whom are also shared with the Imperial's 9 Divines and some of whom aren't. Granted, Mara is a deity both in the 9 Divinies and in the traditional Nordic system, but it does appear that many Nords view some of these shared deities in a different light. For example, I forget which quest, but there was an instance where a Nord NPC made the distinction between Kynareth (one of the 9) and Kyne (the traditional Nordic deity) though they are essentially variations of the same deity. There is some good reading on this both in game and online: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nine_Divines http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nordic_Pantheon And it certainly helps explain why the Thalmor are so intent on banning the worship of Talos (whom they view as a false god, since according to them it's impossible for men to ascend to godhood) and why they hate Lorkhan (who they traditionally considered to be a trickster). And on the other side of the coin, it's easy to understand why so many Nords are pissed at the Thalmor policy (and the Imperials who signed off on it) because Talos (or Ysmir) is a Nord who ascended into deity status and Lorkhan (who they call Shor) has historically helped men (unlike many other deities) and is the creator of Sovngarde (where their honored go in the afterlife). Honestly, I didn't really pay attention to a lot of the religious context when I first played this game. But now that I know more about it, the political environment of the game and the power struggles going on make a lot more sense.

The Dominion views Ulfric as essential to the Stormcloak cause, and the Dossier makes it clear they they were willing to directly interfere to ensure he didn't die. We then see Elenwyn at Helgen, when the Empire is about to execute him. That alone is suspicious enough, but the cut content has her demanding custody, citing the Talos ban under the White Gold Concordant, and Tullius refusing. She then threatens to inform the Emperor of his treachery, before Tullius turns around and walks away. Now, again, from what i've heard of the sound files, this was probably cut because it kinda sounded like crap. But the implication is pretty clear. The Dominion tried to take custody of Ulfric. Whether they had a Plan-B in case Tullius refused or not isn't clear, and the only indication is Elenwyn and some Justicars hanging out around Helgen after the opening sequence, but i personally think that's more a technical layover of having her there for the intro and not an indication of anything story related. Still, combined with the Dossier, it's pretty obvious that they were trying to prevent Ulfric from being executed. He does them no favours by being dead, or in jail, so the only reasonable assumption is that they planned for him to 'escape' after they took custody. Not so much in the case of the American Revolution. The rebellion was practically over, before the English withdrew and left what basically amounted to cleanup in the hands of Hessian mercenaries. This only served to galvanise support for a failing rebellion, as the Germans drank and looted, culminating in the Crossing of the Delaware and a resurgence of Washington's rebels (against a bunch of drunk mercs who barely put up a fight). Had England not been forced to commit it's own military elsewhere, the rebels would have lost. 1) Are those cut scenes even within the game? If not, why are you even bringing them up? The only thing that we know from the Thalmor dossier is that the Thalmor at one point considered Ulfric to be an "asset" (which is a vague term in and of itself) but that he was uncooperative at the time of the Dragonborn's spy mission. The dossier also clearly states, that both an Imperail victory and a Stormcloak victory are to be avoided. The dossier notes that Thalmor policy with Ulfirc and the conflict in general was "hands-off" but that the Helgen incident was an exception to that policy; there are no specifics given as to what the Thalmor were trying to do, but no mention is made of an outright rescue mission nor are there indications of one in the opening scenes. Anything else that you want to infer from that dossier is purely speculation. 2) The American Revolution wasn't "over" prior to Washington's raid across the Deleware, as there were still tens of thousands of British troops (mostly English, not German) stationed throughout North America conducting garrison duties and preparing for the upcoming campaign season. The Rebel capitol hadn't been captured by the British and there were still several Continental armies, and state militias, that the British had yet to defeat. Washinton's success at the Deleware crossing had just as much to do with the element of surprise and boldness of the attack as it had to do with the Hessian's lack of preparedness. And your speculation that the rebels would've lost had England committed more troops is just that....speculation. As it was, the Brits had committed nearly 50k troops to that war, and that's not even counting the Loytalist auxiliaries and German mercenaries...that number is not insignificant considering the size of England's overall military and the scope of standard land battles of that era. Your comparisons to the American Revolution, and to Vietnam for that matter, are overly simplified and reliant on speculation (similar to many of your other posts regarding Ulfirc and Stormcloak/Imperial conflict). You're probably better off leaving those historical analogies aside for future discussion.

Not that I disagree with your multi-cultural vs mono-cultural theory as it relates to modern media and entertainment, but I think you're reading into the Empire vs AD conflict a bit too much, or rather you're focusing on the wrong aspects. Lore-wise the High Elves have always been somewhat snooty and arrogant towards the other races, and they've always had outright disdain for the Empire and the deities they worship...the historical defeats the High Elves suffered at the hands Alessia and Tiber Septim likely explain most of that. And while I think most players have a hard time empathizing with the Thalmor agenda, there is at least a context to their behaviors and actions...after all, at one point it was Elven kingdoms that ruled most of Tamriel, in the same way that the Empire did in its heyday. I think Bethesda's goal in gameplay and lore has always been to create an environment where there is no simple good vs evil conflict, but rather varying shades of gray. The AD is easily vilified now, and were in years past for treating most humans as nothing more than slaves, but they themselves also suffered horrendously from the political and religious backlash during the reign of the Alessian order. And a lot of people tend to overlook that there was a sizable minority of High Elves who sympathized with and even outright supported Alessia and her rebellion; and yet somehow they vanished from Cyrodil and the Tamrielic mainland all the same as did their more malign and cruel brethren. Likewise, the Empire has the appearances of a mostly multi-cultural and benign Tamrielic kingdom, but when you crack open the history books you find that it has its own skeletons. It has relied on a very militant expansionism or very overt "gunboat" diplomacy in order to "acquire" and maintain many of its current provinces. And its recent decisions regarding Hammerfell, Morrowind, and Thalmor presence throughout much of its territory has demonstrated its willingness to sacrifice and/or marginalize its outer territories in order to preserve Cyrodil's power. And let's face it, the Empire, though multi-cultural in some aspects, is very much a kingdom that revolves around Cyrodil. Sure, at times there have been Imperial power brokers who were of a foreign race, but most of the big players are native to Cyrodil. The same generalities can be applied to Skyrim, Morrowind, High Rock, ect. There are varying perspectives and histories on each of the provinces and races; it all depends on who is telling the story. I think Bethesda intentionally wrote the lore that way. And to be honest, I like that there is no simple good vs evil faction. For example I like reading about Tiber Septim and his exploits prior to and during his reign as Emperor; but I also like reading the suggestive hints here and there that he used under-handed tactics to exploit others and enhance his own power and prestige. The game is full of historical ambiguity, and unlike the Star Wars franchise, there is no obvious good side and bad side....much like Game of Thrones (the books not necessarily the tv show) there is something refreshingly original and realistic about creating that kind of fictional environment. Lol, well I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I like the ambiguity too, especially in regards to whose point-of-view you are taking it from. There's that one Skyrim Bard's quest that I find particularly interesting, where ole legendary King Olaf One-Eye turns out to be not quite so legendary after all. I agree that Star Wars is way more black and white in terms of moral relativism(although Rogue One is probably the first one to challenge that at least a little bit), and that TES has much more realistic, and interesting, shades of grey in its narrative. I like that too. I mean, yes, Tamriel used to be a virtual homeland for all mer before humans arrived...from that point of view all humans everywhere in Tamriel could be seen as oppressive conquerors who should gtfo back to Atmora, Yokuda, Akavir(or wherever). Bethesda wants a certain amount of racial conflict to always be present in varying degrees, otherwise the narrative becomes bland real fast. Let's face it, violence and war is fun in a fantasy setting right? That being said(and I also agree that the Empire certainly has its share of skeletons in the closet), I don't see Bethesda going back to the all-encompassing unity of a Tamriel under one nation any time soon. Perhaps in the distant future when they can flesh out other lands like the above-mentioned Akavir and Yokuda. But for now, they need Tamriel in conflict...if only to have something to do in the game lol. I disagree with others' notions of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks as racist bastards, after all they are only talking about Skyrim and not the whole continent. Every race has its homeland, Skyrim is no different. As such, I can totally see Bethesda having the Stormcloaks actually win the Civil War. At the very least, it makes the political map of Tamriel so much more interesting. I think Cyrodiil will shrink in political clout, but not in military power...I see them as the axle upon which the wheel of violence turns on Tamriel. If I were working at Bethesda, I'd pitch the TES 6 story to take place in either Valenwood or Hammerfell. The former as a grass-roots rebellion against their AD masters, or the latter as the courageous defense of a lone province against the full might of the AD. That's assuming they follow chronolgically...Beth tends to jump around the timeline a lot. :tongue: 1) I'm glad someone else noticed the injection of moral ambiguity, even if it was perhaps ever so subtle, into the Rebellion in Rogue One. I honestly enjoy seeing more realistic character development like that and I enjoyed and appreciated Rogue One much more than Force Awakens partly for that reason. 2) I agree conflict and disharmony is very important to Bethesda for reasons of gameplay and sensationalism (kind of like real-world politics and media). Controversy generates interest. 3) I hope Bethesda does the ES 6 in one of those areas as well; and I would love to see a continuation of the Thalmor conflict. 4) I personally agree that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks aren't racists, but rather are nationalists (sometimes those terms can overlap, but it's unfair to broadstroke people without first examining their individual motivations). I personally sympathize with Ulfric's cause when playing as a Dragonborn, Companion Nord warrior, for many reasons that I have already outlined. And I've done that knowing full well that Ulfric has plenty of his own faults. But yet, when I've played as an Imperial vampire hunter, or a Bosmer thief, I find that my role-playing can take me to supporting the Empire as well. Just like with the differing histories you encounter in Elder Scrolls, I think someone's perception of the Stormcloak vs Imperial Civil War will vary depending on how they role-play and perceive the different races and factions. So in that sense, there really is no right or wrong answer to the debate of which side is better and more worthy of your support.

So can we agree that an alliance is possible? If we take into account what Beth may want to do in the future then we can scrap much of this discussion, after all they can change the course of Tamriel´s history outside of the bounds of logic. Well of course it's possible, I mean we aren't arguing actual history here. And yes, this discussion is mostly moot...much of what we are all talking about here doesn't matter in the least. At best we are arguing about what we think Bethesda's intentions are(both past and future), and at worst what we personally think it should be. It's still interesting to discuss it though. :smile: If I had to guess, I'd say the future looks like a loose confederation of independent groups coming together to defeat a common enemy. Art reflects reality, and fantasy writing is no exception. Rogue One is a perfect example of this: a small group of freedom fighters desperately rebelling against the all-powerful Empire <-- it's no coincidence that the Rebellion is multicultural and the Empire is homogeneously white. The writers are purposely injecting that not-so-subtle reflection of modern times into the narrative. It's a microcosm of current politics in America, Lucas actually had this same thing in mind for the originals(though to a lesser degree). In Tamriel, the Dominion certainly fits the bill of homogeneous overlords way better than the Empire...I mean the Empire is multicultural by definition. But the Empire is also known for being a heavy-handed and bureaucratic ruler that doesn't always have their respective client-states best interests at heart. This is plainly seen in the White-Gold Concordant. So while they aren't really akin to the Empire of Star Wars, they are certainly much less comparable to the Rebels in terms of character and ideals. This is all speculation of course. But given the current politics of the day, and the fact the entertainment industry historically trends towards the left side of the political spectrum, I'd gamble that the majority of fictional fantasy stories written in the next four years that involve rebellion, revolution, civil war, etc. will have a common theme: multicultural liberty vs mono-cultural order. I hope I'm wrong actually, that would get boring really fast... Not that I disagree with your multi-cultural vs mono-cultural theory as it relates to modern media and entertainment, but I think you're reading into the Empire vs AD conflict a bit too much, or rather you're focusing on the wrong aspects. Lore-wise the High Elves have always been somewhat snooty and arrogant towards the other races, and they've always had outright disdain for the Empire and the deities they worship...the historical defeats the High Elves suffered at the hands Alessia and Tiber Septim likely explain most of that. And while I think most players have a hard time empathizing with the Thalmor agenda, there is at least a context to their behaviors and actions...after all, at one point it was Elven kingdoms that ruled most of Tamriel, in the same way that the Empire did in its heyday. I think Bethesda's goal in gameplay and lore has always been to create an environment where there is no simple good vs evil conflict, but rather varying shades of gray. The AD is easily vilified now, and were in years past for treating most humans as nothing more than slaves, but they themselves also suffered horrendously from the political and religious backlash during the reign of the Alessian order. And a lot of people tend to overlook that there was a sizable minority of High Elves who sympathized with and even outright supported Alessia and her rebellion; and yet somehow they vanished from Cyrodil and the Tamrielic mainland all the same as did their more malign and cruel brethren. Likewise, the Empire has the appearances of a mostly multi-cultural and benign Tamrielic kingdom, but when you crack open the history books you find that it has its own skeletons. It has relied on a very militant expansionism or very overt "gunboat" diplomacy in order to "acquire" and maintain many of its current provinces. And its recent decisions regarding Hammerfell, Morrowind, and Thalmor presence throughout much of its territory has demonstrated its willingness to sacrifice and/or marginalize its outer territories in order to preserve Cyrodil's power. And let's face it, the Empire, though multi-cultural in some aspects, is very much a kingdom that revolves around Cyrodil. Sure, at times there have been Imperial power brokers who were of a foreign race, but most of the big players are native to Cyrodil. The same generalities can be applied to Skyrim, Morrowind, High Rock, ect. There are varying perspectives and histories on each of the provinces and races; it all depends on who is telling the story. I think Bethesda intentionally wrote the lore that way. And to be honest, I like that there is no simple good vs evil faction. For example I like reading about Tiber Septim and his exploits prior to and during his reign as Emperor; but I also like reading the suggestive hints here and there that he used under-handed tactics to exploit others and enhance his own power and prestige. The game is full of historical ambiguity, and unlike the Star Wars franchise, there is no obvious good side and bad side....much like Game of Thrones (the books not necessarily the tv show) there is something refreshingly original and realistic about creating that kind of fictional environment.

Say what you will, but Jarl Siddgeir is a staunch supporter of Vladimir Septim ever since Vladimir's intervention helped Siddgeir take the Falkreath Hold. Imperial intervention in Skyrim politics does not help Skyrim. No offense, but your thinly veiled political references are pretty over-done and trite. Why not just keep to the original topic?

I'm on another play through now (Nord Warrior, Companion, but no sides chosen in the Civil War yet) and I've got to say that quite a few of the Imperial supporters and Jarls just strike me as class A a$$holes. Siddgeir of Falkreath is a waste of space who doesn't give a crap about his hold or his people and wants others to do his job while he relaxes in luxury. The Battleborn family in Whiterun strike me as stuck-up, arrogant and elite-minded people who look down upon "traditional" Nords and give Fralia Greymane all kinds of grief for her accusations despite the fact they do know where her son was being kept by the Thalmor. Jarl Igmund and his father of Markarth were too incompetent to maintain their rule of their hold without outside support (first Ulfric's support, then imperial support) and were all too ready to throw Ulfric under the bus when the AD threatened Reach after the Markarth incident. Moreover, Igmund seems entirely oblivious to the plight of his people at the hands of the foresworn and dragons. EDIT: And to add to that, Jarl Elisif is hopelessly inexperienced and unprepared to rule her hold, much less the entire kingdom of Skyrim. Her opening dialogue where she tells a worried citizen of Dragonbridge that she'll send an entire legion to deal with problem Necromancers illustrates her inexperience. She basically relies on her steward to sanity-check her decisions, and it would be hard to imagine her as anything other than a weak, puppet-ruler once the Imperials win the Civil War. I'm not picking on her for being a woman, but of all the Jarls, she seems to be the one with the least Nordic qualities, as she has little in the way of political acumen, leadership traits or battlefield experience. I'm not saying that all of the main NPC's and Jarls on the Stormcloak side are angels and all stars by comparison, but whoever said that the Imperial-aligned NPC's are at least more competent and more likable is living in a dream world. I detect quite a bit of arrogance and selfishness from many of the Imperial supporters, which given the threats many Nords are facing (dragons, bandits, Thalmor interrogations) is not easy to stomach when playing as traditional Nord. Honestly, the only Jarl I find truly likable is Jarl Balgruuf, and it's worth noting that he did everything he could to stay out of the Civil War until he was finally forced to take sides with the Imperials. If there were more Jarls like Balgruuf, maybe, just maybe, I could see a traditional Nord siding with the Empire. But as it stands, most of the other Imperial Jarls aren't nearly as likable as Balgruuf is, and Ulfric, though flawed in his own ways, offers a better message and cause for most Nords to take up.

WTF? You're reading way too much into the intro. The AD wanted Ulfric to be kept alive, no doubt. But where are you getting all of this junk about the AD freeing Ulfric?

Except, that was only pertaining to combat on their own land. Vietnam could never have successfully invaded the US, nor could the colonials have ever sucessfully invaded England. And for the record, the in both situations, victory came from outside sources. Vietnam had the support of China, and the Colonies only won because England withdrew most of its forces to deal.with conflict in Europe. Both would have resulted in a home front loss were it not for other major powers. I believe in the comparison you quoted, the original poster was comparing the Nords to Vietnam, in that it is expected at some point that the AD would try to attack and invade Skyrim and not the other way around. Also, your speculation that Vietnam or the American colonies would have lost without outside support is just that....speculation. And to be fair to the North Vietnamese, while they did receive material support from China and Russia, most of the decisive battles were fought by Vietnamese troops, not by intervening Russians or Chinese.

To be fair IMO it doesn´t even matter if it´s the Septim or Mede dynasty. Nor should it, if a ruler cannot show success, nor gain the support of the masses he is simply not qualified to rule. The adherence to a monarchic family name and to old institutions simply because "it was always like that" isn´t something to put on a pedestal and hail as virtue. We too did away with our monarchies, and the return to a moot elected High King of the Nords appeals to me more than blood rights. Even if that would lead to national instability - to say otherwise would mean that to discredit all our own revolutions. Something better may not always follow, but there´s a chance it does. IMO the "right decision" depends on whether the player believes that the Empire/independent nations can repel the AD or not. IMO both could do it, we simply do not know enough about the military matters of Tamriel to make truly informed guesses. To say that it would be impossible for the indepedent nations to win, would mean the Switzerlands would like a word with you. I made that comment about Tiber Septim because Tiber did in fact rally Nords, and other groups, to his cause through his strength of character and natural, inherent qualities (though he did do a fair bit of conquering too). If the Empire were still being ruled by a competent and charismatic ruler, then I think many Nords would be willing to stay with the Empire. From what we know of Mede, I just don't think there is enough mettle to that man's character that the Nords can respect him the same way they could Tiber; and if Nords can't respect someone, it's downhill battle to get them to follow him or her. I also agree with what you say about how a High King elected by a Moot appeals much more to most traditional Nords vs just following a King because he inherited the throne. Tiber and many other Nordic rulers earned and fought their way into kingship; nothing was given to them. That's the type of ruler that most Nords will respect, and I just don't see much if any of that in Mede. Ulfric, though egotistical and self-centered at times, built his movement from the ground up and fought tooth-in-nail to build his reputation and then build his kingdom. You may not like him as a person, but as Nord (which is how I played through most of my games) I could at least respect his abilities and his origins much more than I could respect Mede's or Elisif's.

As I've said before, I think the whole right or wrong aspect of the Stormcloak rebellion comes down to whether the player can stomach Ulfric's personality. I don't like certain aspects of Ulfric's personality, but I do see him as driven enough and competent enough to not only lead Skyrim into the future but also to prepare for the upcoming round of warfare with the AD (which the lore seems to indicate as inevitable). He is certainly more experienced and prepared for that job than is Jarl Elisif, who is really just a puppet ruler being run by the Imperials. And I would gladly see Skyrim ruled by the likes of Ulfric instead of Emperor Titus Mede. In one aspect, I do respect Mede because he did save the Empire from near annihilation (albeit with a lot of outside help, especially from the Nords). But on the other hand, it was under his rule that the Empire suffered a double-pronged surprise AD attack, during which the captiol was sacked and Hammerfell was abandoned. And furthermore he essentially submitted the Empire to the AD by agreeing to the terms of the Concordat and allowing Justicars to roam his lands as they pleased and allowed the iconic Blades organization to be disbanded and nearly hunted into extinction. From what I've read of Mede, I think of him as an outgunned hero; by that I mean that although he may have good intentions for his kingdom, he has been fighting a losing battle, not just in terms of the AD expanding and exerting its influence but in terms of how the Empire itself has decayed from within and lost much of its former power and respect. Many Nords whole-heartedly went south to help repel and then defeat the AD armies in Cyrodil during the Great War. But I think many Nords, regardless of their allegiance in the rebellion, lost most if not all of their respect for the Empire because of the seemingly submissive concessions it made to end the War. A true Nord values honor, strength, and a fight-to-the-end mentality....Some of the legions may have those qualities, but the government they fight for seems to be lacking in them. This isn't Tiber Septim's Empire anymore; if it were, I don't even know that there would have been a Stormcloak rebellion in the first place. Much like the real life Roman Empire, I think the Cyrodil-based Empire is in its twilight years, and I think that it's former and current subject states are eager to prepare themselves for independent governance.

Poppycock. The Empire agreed to hand over territories already occupied by the enemy, it didn't throw Hammerfell under the bus. When Hammerfell's provincial government refused the terms, and practically guaranteed insurrection forces in the province that would have either required prolonging the War, or killing its own subjects, it cut them lose. As for Skyrim, it was Ulfric who is responsible for its current situation. He's the one who raised a stink about a uninforced law, forcing a crackdown or risk treaty violation. Ulfric threw his own country under the bus for unclear reasons, and trying to pass the blame onto the Empire is the disingenuous thing. Uhmmm...you're misrepresenting what really happened, and I think you know it. The significance of the White Gold Concordat wasn't that the Empire ceded some of its former territories (which it was in no position to reclaim anyhow), but rather that it agreed to all of the edicts (namely those relating to the worship of Talos) set forth by the Thalmor. The whole reason for the Empire's war with the Thalmor in the first place was that it didn't want to subvert itself to Thalmor edicts and influence, but it ended up doing just that following the final defeat of the Thalmor army in Cyrodil. Hammerfell was thrown under the bus, or whatever phrase you want to use. When the Empire's capitol was attacked, the Empire withdrew its main forces from Hammerfell, leaving the Redguards to fight the Thalmor unsupported (with the exception of a few loyal legionnaires who continued to fight with them). And are you really going to blame the Redguards for resisting the Thamor offensive instead of seeking peace through submission? Really? Why would any race, be it man or elven, want to subject itself to that kind of autocratic rule? As for Ulfric and Skyrim...unenforced laws? Uh, no. The Thalmor were actively patrolling Imperial provinces, looking for dissents and "trouble-makers" to interrogate and dispose of, even before Ulfric started to raise a "stink." Why do you think all of the surviving Blades had to go in hiding after the Great War? For all the faults of Ulfric, which I agree there are some, the Stormcloak rebellion was in response to legitimate concerns over a spreading Thalmor influence. Most Nords, even most stormcloaks, don't hate the Empire, they just don't respect it nor do they agree with how it handled the aftermath of the Great War. They almost universally all hate the Thalmor and want to deal with them on their own terms. Is he? He is unaware of the dubious loyalties of his own supporters, the rather clear manipulation at the hands of the enemy, or the sacrificing of valuable allies for the sake of displays of power. Ulfric is not a smart man. He is a broken man desperately trying to atone for a perceived crime, who is doing far more damage in that attempt. A few things we need to clarify: 1) Who do you consider to be Ulfric's dubious supporters? 2) The Thalmor may have manipulated Ulfric into believing that he gave up valuable information during the Great War. The Thalmor obviously want the Empire to be weakened by intenral strife (an ongoing civill war with the Nords). But the Thalmor by no means want an independent Skyrim being ruled by an anti-Thalmor Nord. The Thalmor at the very least had reluctant acceptance and submission from the Imperials (and Nords when they were under Imperial rule). They will have outright hostile resistance from the Redguards, likely from the Orcs as well, and now, with an independent Skyrim, they have hostile Nords to deal with as well...you're kidding yourself if you think this is what the Thalmor wanted. 3) You really think that the Nord who deftly used politics and martial prowess to build up his reputation and earn support for his cause through a variety of power plays (suppressing the Foresworn Rebellion, Challenging the High King Toryg, winning over half the Nordic holds through dipolomacy and conquering the other half) to eventually become High King of a mostly unified Skyrim is "not smart?" Arrogant? Egotistical? Vengeful? Self-centered? Guilt complex? Yes to all of those...but you don't overthrow a powerful overlord regime and declare yourself High King by being dumb. The problem is, they don't. Because Ulfric doesn't have absolute power. He has 2 Jarls who want nothing more than to watch the Empire burn, regardless of it's value, and if he were to suddenly voice support for the Empire after fighting so hard to break away from them, it would almost certainly spark another civil war. Ulfric is damning his own country to lack of allies, and an inability to contribute to that greater front. A) Again, which Jarls are you referring to? And what quotes or evidence do you have to indicate this about their attitudes? And why do you doubt Ulfric's power over his Jarls? B) A Jarl is still a Jarl and has to obey the High King. If the High King decided that the Nords needed to join forces with other factions, like the Imperials, to fight a common enemy, a Jarl would be hard-pressed to disobey such orders without a good reason, and a big army. C) The Nords have other allies in future fights with the Thamlor (Redguards, Orcs, maybe even the Dunmer). Skyrim is anything but lacking in allies because there are plenty of other satellite provinces that have been marginalized under Imperial rule and are just as eager to ward off Thalmor advances. I simply brought up the Imperial issue to point out that, at the end of the day, the Nords and Imperial have a common enemy in the form of the Thalmor. Whether the Imperials and Nords end up fighting in coordination against future Thalmor threats is purely speculation...I simply point out that it is not uncommon for former enemies to put aside their differences when facing bigger, common threats.

And are likely detrimental to everyone else. Detrimental to the Imperials perhaps. Between the Imperials abandoning Hammerfell during the Great War and offering limited, if any support, to Morrowind during their own crisis, I see an independent Skyrim having much in common with some of the former and current provinces of the Empire. The Lore doesn't offer much insight as to what Skyrim would and wouldn't do under Ulfric's rule. But for all the labels we can throw at Ulfirc, "dumb" isn't one of them...you don't manipulate people and work the political entities like Ulfric did to become High King by being "dumb." And his opposition and outright hatred to the Aldmeri Dominion has been a driving force behind his nationalistic rebellion, perhaps only second to his own personal ambitions. Ulfric knows the Aldmeri are a long term threat, and he is the type of person who is smart enough to realize that Skyrim has potential allies in that fight. Heck even after Nordic independence, it's not at all unrealistic that the Imperials and Nords would fight alongside each other in future fights with the Thalmor, because they have much more of an incentive to fight off that threat than to continue bickering with each other. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have every reason to continue to support the Empire in it's fight against the Elves (if for nothing else than to have a buffer state). But similar to how Emperor Titus finally conceded to the terms of the White Gold Concordat on his terms, after the Thalmor invasion had been soundly defeated, Ulfric and the Nords would assist the Imperials so on their terms, not because a foreign ruler told them to...that is what the Stormcloak rebellion was about IMO; allowing the Nords to have the freedom to choose their own path.

Ulfric would probably favor building a wall around the perimeter of Skyrim and having Highrock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil and Morrowind pay for it. 1) That Trump reference joke is a bit over-played. 2) No Ulfric wouldn't be likely to do that. He may be an arrogant, egotistical nationalist, but that doesn't mean he is racist or xenophobic. 3) Skyrim has a lot in common with some of the states you listed. The Redgaurds have a common enemy with Nords in the Aldmeri Dominion, and many Nordic legionnaires helped the Redguards in battle during the Great War. And many Dunmer refuges have relied on Skyrim to provide sanctuary from the natural disaster plaguing their homelands. Those are significant ties between the Nords and other groups which cannot be overlooked. 4) Even if Ulfric wanted to to do that, refer to what he said below: As I've said before, if someone couldn't stomach supporting the Stormcloaks due to Ulfric's personality, fine.....Personally, I see him as the lesser of two evils in the overall struggle between Imperial hegemony (under a heavy Thalmor influence) and Nordic independence. Kind of like certain big-name politicians, I don't like Ulfric as a person, but he is a leader who in the long run will accomplish certain objectives that I think are beneficial to the Nords.

Monganfinn, I agree with most of what you are saying. If I take your Nazi reference to literal, I apologize, but I too have heard a lot of players refer to the Stormcloaks as a Nordic supremacist group, so maybe subconsciously writing a response to them. And your breakdown on Elisif and why a traditional Nord player would likely side with the Stormcloaks is spot on! I understand that there is disagreement behind the legality and morality of Ulfric's challenge of High King Torygg, but in the game itself, after the assassination has already happened, it's really hard for someone RP'ing a traditional Nord to side with and/or respect Elisif and the Imperial cause in general. Elisif is obviously being used as a political pawn and puppet-ruler by the Empire, and the Imperial officials in Skyrim seem much more focused on bringing the province in line, rather than addressing the core concerns and grievances of the Nordic peoples. As many have pointed out, Ulfric himself may have been manipulated by the Thalmor while imprisoned and his rebellion may be playing into their greater ambitions, but at the very least, once his rebellion has succeeded you know that he is trying to set up a free and independent kingdom for the Nords. The Imperials simply want Skyrim to remain under their control (and use Elisif to further that goal) so that they can utilize its resources and manpower...it's hard to throw your support behind such a cause as a traditional Nord.

You didn't have to do anything in Skyrim, other than escape Helgen. The Greymane rescue mission wasn't part of the Civil War quest, granted, but it does show that there was a very real Thalmor threat in Skyrim, and that it wasn't just a facade. Was this an attempt by the Thalmor to incite civil strife? Likely it was. But the Thalmor were present in Skyrim prior to the civil war and they were actively rooting out those who opposed them....to imply, as some have (though not you) that the Thalmor embassies, patrols, decrees, ect. were simply for-show more than anything else doesn't add up to me. There were very real military and intelligence objectives behind these Thalmor activities, and the Nords had reason enough to want them out of their lands. I agree. As I have said numerous times, there is a lot in Skyrim, and TES series in general, that is purposely left vague and open to interpretation. My main point on that issue was that the ransacking and pillaging that normally followed medieval/ancient sieges, including some in TES, was fairly normal to some degree. The only time that things were considered truly bad was when everyone was killed, including the people of high ransom value and importance. Disagree with the comparison to Nazi Germany. IMO, the Developers definitely used the real life Norse (Scandanavians, Danes, Norwegians, most of whom were originally tribes of German ethnicity) as their source of inspiration for TES' Nords. The nationalism and ethnic pride was prevalent in a lot of different societies and cultures (and still is). To say that they are indicative of Nazi-like culture is a bit of stretch. Just about any real life rebellion you find in the history books is going to have some ethnic pride and nationalism involved. The Dunmer aren't forced to live in the slums of Windhelm...most of them do simply due to their economic situation. If I remember correctly, there is a Dunmer farmer somewhere in the hold of Windhelm who is perfectly happy and content with where he is and says something to the effect of: any race can live a good life in Skyrim, but they have to earn their keep. Similarly the Khajit caravans are forced to peddle their goods outside of all the major cities (even the Imperial-controlled ones), but I suspect that has more to do with economic competition with the city's shop keepers and the fact that many of the Khajit NPC's are either theives or fences for thieves. There certainly are indications of some distrust of foreigners among many of the Nords, not just the Stormcloaks, which given that remoteness of the province is to be expected. However, the Nords overall seem willing to accept foreign races into their cities and ranks so long as they prove themselves worthy. Jarl Balgruuf of Whiterun, arguably the quintessential Nordic city, has a Dunmer as his Housecarl and chief adviser. The Companions, the most Nordic of all the NPC groups found in Skyrim, has all manner of races in their ranks. The Orcish camps are allowed to live in the remote reaches of many holds without bother from the Jarls' guards or the stormcloaks. There aren't many, if any, foreigners in the Stormcloak ranks, but the Stormcloaks are fighting for Nordic independence. Short of being hired as mercenaries or support staff, no foreigners really have any incentive to join their ranks or even play a part in the civil war at all...it's likely to their advantage to wait it out see who wins. Compared to Morrowind which has enslaved Argonians, and the Summerset Isle which is home to a supremacist authoritarian regime, Skyrim isn't as prejudiced or unforgiving as some make it out to be.

Yes! Thank you for pointing that out. I had recalled reading/hearing that the Thalmor presence in Skyrim pre-dated Ulfric's rebellion, but I had forgotten the source. And similarly, the Thalmor presence was not just a facade designed to incite the flames of civil war...there were Justicar patrols and torture center (think GITMO but in Skyrim) where Nords were being taken to for interrogation and silencing....anyone recall the rescue mission for the family member out of Whiterun (was it the Battleborns or the other family, I forget). As for that whole back and forth on war crimes, sacking a city was a common occurrence in medieval times (and in Skyrim's lore)....some shops got ransacked and torched, a few commoners were wacked, some women abused...not making light of any of that, but just saying it happened quite frequently in real life antiquity and Skyrim's lore. The only real times things were considered outrageous and out of the norm was when everyone got the sword, including nobility and those who could be ransomed. So to accuse Ulfric of war crimes because of a little destruction and pillaging after the retaking of Markarth is not in "war-crime" territory by Skyrim's standards. Furthermore, the history book which discusses these "war crimes" was written by an Imperial historian who favored the reachmen and Imperial rule and disliked Nordic nationalism, so there may be a bit of bias there (which is not unheard of for the many books found in the Elder Scrolls lore). And there are certainly inhabitants of Markarth (found in game) who were no doubt old enough to have lived through the retaking of Markarth, but I've never heard anyone verbally mention these supposed atrocities on Ulfric's part. Getting away from the objective and into the subjective, while Ulfric certainly has some character flaws, I also do think that he gets unfairly vilified on certain issues (both in game by NPC's and by the player community itself), mostly because of how people perceive and not necessarily because of an action or decision on his part. For example, many NPC's and a lot of Skyrim fans accuse Ulfric of racist and xenophobic tendencies, but the reality is Ulfric never says anything racist to anyone and the fact that all manner of races are allowed to live in Windhelm shows that everyone is allowed in....yes, we can discuss the slums being almost exclusively inhabited by the Dunmer, but the fact is they are still allowed to live and work in Windhelm. How many Nords or Imperials do you think are allowed to live in Summerset Isle? How many Argonians are allowed to live in Morrowind (excluding those that might be slaves)? Another accusation is in regards to Ulfric's war crimes, which is totally based on a "historical" book written by an author who fully supports Imperial rule over Nordic independence. There is hardly anyone in Skyrim without some sort of issue or defect....Ulfric included. But far too often people want to jump on the "let's hate on Ulfric bandwagon" simply because they see so many others do the same. There is enough left open to interpretation that I just can't see Ulfric as the ignorant, racist, power-mad ruler that so many make him out to be.