Yagamoth

So to basically sum up eleven pages of discussion the debate here centers on a Morrowind style game versus the Oblivion style game that Skyrim is patterned after. For those of you who never played Morrowind allow me to clarify. In Morrowind there was not a single NPC that was essential (to the best of my knowledge), and you could easily break quests by killing the wrong NPC. While that certainly adds role playing value (how I wish I could slaughter the Black-Briar family) it also creates a situation where you really need to know everything about a game before taking any action. Look I loved Morrowind and have been raging about the new system since Oblivion but the truth is that in some ways it is better than Morrowind. Now Virnemo I agree with most of your comments about the quests but insofar as your comment about the Soul Cairn quest being bad planning I strongly disagree with you. Morrowind was the true RP game and as I mentioned if you screwed up, then you screwed up and there was nothing you could do about it. Basically it is the ultimate way of showing that there are consequences to any action. If you want to play as a zealous vampire hunter that is fine, but by that same token there are consequences to that mentality.

If Skyrim was built like Morrowind the Imperials would of had perfect Jarls. After all I would have actually been able to kill Siddgeir and Maven. I cannot tell you how much I wish the game would just let me kill the Black Briar family, with the exception of the daughter.

K9andSmith 1. I see your point here, personally I think it was never considered due to the massive amount of processing power it would take in addition to how the game was set up. Basically a naval seige would have involved lots of cannons and other things that would have put a strain on some pc's. Well that and they would of had to code in a naval battle sequence. With that being said your method would have been the most logical method for Tullius to go about it. 2. I see your point on the East Empire raid, I had not done the quest in awhile and kind of forgot about it. I was thinking more in terms of what a real navy would have to consider in a region like that. 3 and 5. His most zealous supporters would see any death by Ulfric, not matter the how, as martyrdom. However remember what Legate Rikka said at the end of the Legion quest line. Without Ulfric as their leader most of the Stormcloaks would simply return home. The distinction I was trying to make is that Ulfric dying after being captured by the Legion could be seen as being bested by a superior foe honorably. Whereas the assassination, no matter who did it, would more than likely just fall on the Imperials heads anyway. After all the truth is not as important as what people believe in cases like that.

So the way I see it your question is about five questions and I will try to provide my thoughts on them in turn. 1. Why did the legion not invade and grab Dawnstar at the start? My thoughts on this are that it is well established in the game that many of the Stormcloaks are legion veterans. The Legion was not simply fighting a group of farmers with pitchforks, they were fighting battle hardened veterans who knew their tactics. Furthermore the Empire was trying to conserve forces as, at the start of the game, the Empire was only Cyrodil, Skyrim, and High Rock. The other Providences had either gone through their own succession or (in the case of Morrowind) was simply so screwed up there would be no real support from that quarter. Also remember that at the start of the game it was not yet an all out war merely skirmishes. Put those facts together and General Tullius was trying to do what he did at the start, capture Ulfric and execute him with minimal casualties, therefore preserving their fighting strength. 2. Why didn't the Empire use their Navy to take Windhelm? Well my thoughts on the first question partially answer this as to the start of the game, however consider also the lesson the Spanish learned from the defeat of their great Armada. A significantly smaller and lesser powerful force can beat a larger one with sufficient tactics. Although as the Naval situation was never mention it is entirely possible that the Stormcloaks had a Navy capable of fighting the Imperial one to a stand still. Additionally if the Legion had attempted to take Windhelm by navy they would have been caught in a pincer. First they would have to slowly navigate down to Windhelm to make sure they did not lose half their fleet to the ice, which would give the Stormcloaks plenty of forewarning. Next the Navy would have to penetrate the walls of a heavily fortified city before troops from Winterhold and Riften could catch them in a pincer. If they failed to take the city (or even breach the walls) before those reinforcements arrived all the reinforcements would have to do is set the ships on fire. 3. Why was Ulfric not assassinated? You hit the nail on the head when you said this would make him a Martyr. If the Legion made Ulfric a Martyr the Stormcloak army would have fought them even more fiercely than before do to the "dishonorable" method the Legion used. Remeber that the Stormcloaks are all about the old nordic traditions and honor. 5. Ok so why not just cover it up and blame the Thalmor? That would have been just as bad as them thinking the Imperial Legion did it. The reason for this is that the Stormcloaks blame the Thalmor pressence in Skyrim on the Empire, ergo if Ulfric was assassinated by the Thalmor it would be evidence to them that (a) The Thalmor favored the Empire winning the war which justifies what they say about the Empire being the Dominions puppet and (b) the only reason the Thamor were there in the first place was the Empire. 5. How was the Helgen execution different from an assassination? Simply put Ulfric was captured by the Imperial Legion due to a tactical masterstroke by General Tullius. The Nords would not see the Legions actions as dishonorable. That would be the best answer I could give for your questions.

My best guess is that the only way to work around this is using the setstage command to advance the questline.

Counter points to your counter points: You are completely correct; it's not Ulfiric's Fault you were sent to the chopping block, it's the dragonborn's fault for crossing the border illegally and the fault of a Imperial Officer with a chip on her shoulder. You mean everyone treats Nords like this, right? It's the stereotype and nothing unique. Orcs weren't even considered sentient beings until the Daggerfall, they were assumed to be an offshoot of Goblins(roughly). Spoken like a True Blade, friend. While it's true that the Thalmor are the true enemy in Skyrim, even General Tullius wants to give them the Karmic Death they have earned, and after you complete the War questline you get more proof of this; for the Empire he has his sights set on them now, for the Stormcloaks he admits if they hadn't been involved this could have ended peacefully. Hardly fair to speak ill of the empire for fulfilling their end of a bargain made to end a war. They Thalmor get to do that EVERYWHERE, and they do that to more then just Talos worshipers. Basically if you speak ill of them, you may just vanish. Malborn's Family vanished as well, Bosmer, and if the Thalmor are truly starting up the Aldmeri Dominion again, then why are they killing their allies in secret? Everyone has said the same bloody thing as you here, even in support of the Empire. Point five on the list wasn't fair and the OP admits it. By your logic then no Nord's born in Skyrim would have any reason to support Ulfric. And the Empire hates the Thalmor as well. Hell, it wasn't until the Stormcloaks had their "fun" that Skyrim had a strong Imperial presence, and not until then that the crackdown on Talos hit Skyrim. If Ulfric had never dueled the high king, and killed him, all those "True Sons of Skyrim" would be free to worship Talos still in peace. You know something we don't? Seeing as these games are part of a Living world, we have no way of knowing who wins this war, what the results of it are beyond Skyrim, and how long it takes for the Dragon's to be beaten again, if ever. And don't kid yourself, Dragons have been a part of games before this; Daggerfall has one as an aide to a member of a Royal Family, though he is out of the way and mentioned only once or twice. In Redguard you have to kill one to progress to the final boss. But you're right. we have no way of knowing if the Empire will still exist by TES7. But trust me, it takes an army of equal strength to grind a war to a standstill, and it takes more to win one. And the Great War never truly ended, my friend, and when it starts again, will the Stormcloaks be there to stop it? Or will they be crushed like ants against a flood of Bosmer, Thalmor, Khajiit, and god knows who else? Here's a hint: That's at least three times the amount of troops the Stormcloaks will have, and if the Empire is gone, then they own that as well, so that's 4 times, if the Dunmer join up, 5 times, Bretons, 6, Orsimer, 7, Argonians, 8... You see the problem?In closing, the Empire may not be faultless, but they want what's best for Tamriel, not just themselves. The Thalmor want what's best for them, and the Stormcloaks want what's best for them. Everyone wants what's best for them, but the Empire still has to look at the big picture, seeing as the Empire is called this since it(used to, anyway) rule all of Tamriel with a fair but tempered hand. Is it doing this now? No, because they lost enough support from the other parts of the Empire. They lost MOST of the empire to the Thalmor. I really have to agree with you, especially #7. in diplomacy, you can't outright ignore a treaty you just signed. you have to at least feign it. and thats what the empire did, the great war really shocked the empire, and they even lost cyrodiil at some point, but with the nord legion from skyrim they won it back, which i believe shows the empire's still got quite a punch left. but they took too much in the intial outset, with all the blades dead and whatnot, and so a strategic retreat, give ground to gain ground. honestly, even with the ban, we have heimsker preaching talos all day in whiterun and no one lifts a finger. not even the guards. he's there all day long. yea, the thalmor in their zeal to downgrade that man who walks as god with mer may scour the land and torture actual and potential talos believers, but thats just them. the empire also may do some similar acts, but it's all kept to minimum just enough to satisfy the treaty enforcers. also like #7, say skyrim wins and secedes from the empire. the war will have its residents bitter with the thalmor AND the empire, which means if the thalmor were to initiate an attack on mankind again, the empire would rather use the divided forces to push into morrowind rather then help skyrim defend. even if they were to create a common front, it would be uneasy at best. the nords would be suspicious the legion will try to take back skyrim at the first chance, while the imperials won't trust the rebels, which even more weakens mankind strength as it is, which means thalmor can divide and conquer. and really, just playing the game and really listening to those dialogues shows ulfric is in this for personal want as much as thalmor hatred. last of all, while the empire did give up hammerfell, elsewyr and such they're gonna need them back to gain some upper hand over the thalmor. yea they could let skyrim be independent, still make an alliance, but other races wouldn't take that very nicely. alliance with an ally that has a racist as an ally to risk multitudes of death? better to just stay put and peacefully under the thalmor! I would counter the argument made in point 7 with the existence of the Ebonheart pact during the second era. You had three races who at best strongly disliked (Nords and Dunmer) to outright hated each other (Dunmer and Argonians) band together and form a fragile yet workable peace to counteract a common foe. Hammerfall may not like the Empire but do you truly believe the Redguards and Nords would simply sit by and wait for the Thalmor to come to them if they started another war. In my opinion the more likely outcome is that most if not all of the independent factions would join the Empire in fighting the Thalmor. Again using the Ebonheart pact as an example the two sides do not necessarily have to like each other to work together in harmony. At the very least should the Thalmor restart the war you would have Skyrim, Cyrodil, High Rock, and Hammerfall fighting against them. The Orcs would be an interesting question but they historically have a strong connection to the Imperial Legion. Furthermore I sincerely doubt the Empire would try to push into Morrowind as that would be the absolute dumbest action they could take. That would basically be giving a presently neutral faction every reason in the world to join with the Dominion in killing them. Additionally consider the fact that the Altmer proposed the White Gold Concordat because either (a) they became unsure of their ability to win or (b) The price of victory would have devestated them and left them open to attack from other forces. It is well established in lore that the Altmer (not sure about bosmer) have a significantly lower birth rate than men. Not to mention the Thalmors pension for practicing eugenics. Simply put the Dominion cannot afford to wait more than half a century at most before resuming the war, otherwise the races of men can simply outbreed them and flood the field with soldiers. My guess would be that even 27 years after the war the races of men, population wise, have recovered far better than their Dominion counterparts. As long as the Civil War in Skyrim ends the victor is not really that important. If you read the Dossiers during the main quest this becomes apparent from the fact that they specifically say the civil war should continue without either side winning. The Thalmor view a Stormcloak victory equally bad to an Imperial victory. On a final note you might want to read the "Ulfric may not be a racist" thread for some interesting insights into Ulfric's apparent racism.

That's not entirely true. There is no indication that the Empire has been stamping down on anything BUT Talos worship. As far as the duel in question, Nordic Jarls have gone to war over the results of supposedly binding and honourable duels, to it's hardly a strictly enforced tradition. What's more, Ulfric did MORE than just kill Torygg, he also declared independence from the Empire. It should also be noted that there is absolutely 0 evidence to support the argument that the Empire is enforcing the Talos ban. They let the Thalmor in to do it (as required by the treaty) but you never actually see anything to indicate that the Empire is arresting Talos worshipers. To compound matters, Ulfric is identified as a Thalmor asset, and is in fact the REASON the Thalmor are there enforcing the ban. Had he not gotten uppity about it, no one would have asked questions and the people of Skyrim would have kept on worshiping Talos while the Empire turned a blind eye. None of this, of course, paints Ulfric as particularly racist, simply desiring power. I will grant that the duel is not always strictly honored however is it not significant that it was the imperial legion, rather than the solitude city guard, who were presiding over the execution. My point was that even at the execution they specifically said that he had let the murderer of High King Torygg escape. The key would I see there is murderer as that would be an Imperial classification. As for other examples play through the Imperial Legion quest line and listen to the comments Tullius makes whenever any Nordic tradition is brought up. That being said I did not intend to claim that the Empire itself was enforcing the ban, however they are the ones allowing the Thalmor into Skyrim to enforce it. Granted it is part of the treaty however, so what? The point the Stormcloaks make is that they would rather be independent than serve an Empire that allows them to be arrested for worshiping their God. I would relate the point about Ulfric getting uppity to the early history of Christian persecution. Perhaps if they simply did not publicly admit to their beliefs and practiced them in private there would not be so many Saints in the Catholic church. However remember at the same time that the belief in any divine being is a belief in something that is objectively higher than oneself or the mortal world. The Christian martyrs died because they believed in something beyond themself and refused to renounce their belief. When speaking about a culture that was created upon a high sense of honor, insofar as honor is more important than ones life, I do not find it surprising that many wish to rebel. What I notice in the game is that cities that remain steeped in Nordic culture are pro Stormcloak, whereas cities that have a heavy Imperial culture influence are pro Empire. The Nordic sense of honor, which is part of their culture and has been cast down by the Empire, is a heavy part of what they are fighting to protect. The best example I can think of is if you have ever played KOTOR2 what Treya says to Mandalore, "Even at a time when there are no more Mandalorians, your honor will remain." As for the Dossier on Ulfric I find several parts of it very interesting. First when speaking of him as an asset they specifically mention the Markarth incident when leads me to believe that they are using the term asset loosely as someone who was manipulated into doing their bidding. Perhaps starting the war was what the Dominion wanted, but that does not necessarily make Ulfric's position wrong.

I strongly agree with what you say here. Personally I believe that people claiming Ulfric is racist tend to do so from a Utopian framework in justifying their position. I believe that people look at the situation in Windhelm without first considering the established lore in the TES universe, and the realities of running a city. Additionally I would argue that administrative need is the driving force behind Ulfric's racism. On the issue of lore you have two races (Argonian and Dunmer) who have a long and bloody history of hating each other. But yes let us throw two groups who absolutely cannot stand each other together, put them in close quarters, and expect them to hug each other and sing kumbayah. What would actually happen if you had Dunmer and Argonians living in that kind of proximity, according to established lore, is a miniature war on the streets of Windhelm. The two races hate each other stemming from the Dunmer enslaving Argonians in the past. The Argonians on the other hand attacked Morrowind the first chance they got. So I personally don't see having the Argonians live outside the walls as racism so much as an unfortunate necessity. Now as far as the Grey Quarter itself you simply have to apply physics to understand that situation. Assume for a moment that Windhelm is a bare bones scale model of what it would look like if it existed in reality. Where was the Jarl supposed to put a large number of refugee's? Windhelm does not exactly have anywhere it can expand to even if the Jarl had the money to expand the city. It is basically surrounded on three sides by a river with the fourth facing a mountain. So effectively you have a choice between somehow blowing up a mountain (again remember this universe does not have things like dynamite or bulldozers) and somehow coming up with the funds to cover the astronomical cost, or just sticking refugee's in the Grey Quarter. Now I will grant that Ulfric is tolerant of racism due to the need of keeping his people behind him. Many Nord's in Windhelm are extremely racist and Ulfric does allow it without comment. The most I can say to that is that in many ways the first conversation you hear upon entering Windhelm is true to life in more ways than one. While I do not agree with the Nords accosting the Dunmer woman I believe that situation would easily play out in real life. You effectively have a group of refugee's who live in, and seem inclined to stay, in a city that accepted them when they were feeling a tragedy in their homeland. That same group of people claim the struggle of their new homes people is not their problem? I may not agree with the Nords but I can certainly understand their position. Beyond that I believe that many people do not consider the fact that Ulfric, for better or worse, is not only fighting for Skyrim's religious freedom but their cultural identity as well. The Empire is effectively trying to stop not only the worship of Talos but eliminate Nordic traditions as well. This is highlighted by the execution scene when you first arrive in Solitude. Single combat is an ancient tradition of the Nord's and yet a man is being executed for following those traditions. Irrespective of anything else by Nordic custom and law Torygg accepted a duel with Ulfric and lost. In Nordic culture that is not murder despite what the Empire is trying to claim. Now where I am going with this that in any modern society if a foreign power came in and basically said you no longer have a right to practice your religion or culture they would fight. In those situations the point of view can arise that if you are not with us then you are against us. Where I am going with this is that perhaps what is interpreted as racism is simply perceiving a threat where their is none.