danjal

@Dark0ne - I think that at the end of the day, paid modding isn't necessarily off the table entirely. But its gonna need some proper work. To such ends, your views, and the views of those invested in the future of modding. Rather than just in the future of monetizing more content. Are very much worth keeping in mind. Even when such things were originally written with the idea that Steam Workshop would remain the primary route. Also, at the end of the day, I can't see how Bethesda is saying that locking it to one platform was never their intention. You can't even RUN Skyrim without Steam. They've been locked in pretty hard for a long long time. Its hard to say you're in favor of an independant system when your main title is locked down.

In response to post #24628239. The terms under which mod authors have to enter to work with Steam Workshop aren't necessarily ideal right now... They are relying on ignorance on behalf of most mod authors to rush into this for a quick buck. The first casualties have already fallen. Most mod authors are hobbyists. Selling a mod moves you from a hobbyist into the field of professional software developer. The strings that attach are numerous and Valve isn't providing much (if any) support.

In response to post #24615349. #24615514, #24615539, #24615594, #24615744, #24615844, #24616559, #24616664, #24616684, #24616839, #24616949, #24617094, #24617659, #24617939, #24617944, #24618744, #24623334, #24624164, #24624429, #24625279, #24626674, #24627199, #24627214, #24628219 are all replies on the same post. The long and short is, Valve's deal isn't very beneficial for the mod authors. Even if you ignore the 25% / 75% financial distribution. Valve provides little to no support to the table. They expect a mod author to work at the level of a professional game developer and be fully informed already. They also expect the mod author to solve all issues. Valve takes a complete hands-off approach and won't even remove a mod if the author requests it "Unless legally forced to." Lets face it. Would you pay for a mod if you did not have the guarantee that it work work? Knowing full well that the refund policy isn't the ideal solution and that Valve reserves the right to retract your access to it at any given time should they 'suspect foul play'? Valve / Steam Workshop also lacks most tools that the average mod user will need once the game gets modded beyond a certain point. Again, Valve has shown little to no inclination to invest here. Otherwise they would've gone ahead and provided such support beforehand.

Alongside the whole stolen assets/permissions deal. The next obvious big issue is compatibility and support. There is good reason mod managers (NMM/MO) and other tools such as LOOT, Wrye Bash and TESVEdit exist. Steam Workshop supports none of these, and if they want to ensure that paid mods won't get used after refunds they will likely build in some form of security measure which would prevent the use of such tools unless you've paid for them (and that would still prevent the "fixing" of broken files). On top of that, as already proven evident. Many mod authors that do this as a hobby lack the legal and business knowledge to account for all consequences of becoming a "professional" developer. Selling your mod does not just mean you're now getting money (even at the extortion rates Valve determined), but it also means you suddenly have a number of obligations... I truely hope that the mod authors together - perhaps in cooperation with Nexus - can come to a peaceful resolution with Bethesda. Circumventing Valve and coming to a situation where everyone, mod authors and mod users alike, will benefit from this new development. I do not begrudge a mod author the chance to earn a little on the side or even should they be good enough earn a living off of mod making. Potentially akin to how people now make a living off of Youtube and/or Twitch. But this current method with the Ball-and-Chain that is Steam Workshop isn't gonna work.

In response to post #24571614. #24572234, #24572374, #24572469, #24572589, #24572669, #24572829, #24572854, #24572864, #24572984, #24572994, #24573004, #24573029, #24573229, #24573324, #24573399, #24573439, #24573784 are all replies on the same post. Frankly, I'm not deadset against paid mods. What I would demand is that Valve gets its ass in gear and does some quality control/assurance... Not to mention, if I'd pay for a mod, then I would want the mod to work - which means that Steam Workshop needs to start providing adequate tools and support there aswell. Untill such a time as that starts happening - they do not deserve this financial split.

In response to post #24572719. #24572849, #24573089, #24573569, #24573724 are all replies on the same post. Advertising, or even a subscription system through a platform that works directly with the mod creators or even in a joint venture with Bethesda would be far superior. And probably provide superior customer support aswell. Just ask anyone who has ever had problems with Steam Early Access on how good Valve is at providing support...

In response to post #24573624. #24573669 is also a reply to the same post. Guaranteed. Gopher gave this very reason in his video on why he wouldn't put his mods up. It'd be a matter of time before someone made the same functions into a mod (no need to copy it even) and distributed it themselves. And even with quest mods or complete overhaul mods. How do you determine its value when Steam Workshop fails to provide any support towards compatibility?

In response to post #24572569. #24572664, #24572779, #24573134, #24573299, #24573349, #24573499 are all replies on the same post. Just look at the pricing alone. Wet and Cold apparently set its price at $4,99 If I'm looking at Skyrim as a base game and its DLC. We're seeing $20~40 for basegame/DLC or Legendary Edition. So what would Wet and Cold be worth compared to the base game when the base game goes on sale as low as $14 on sale (And thats the Legendary Edition)? What about a mod like Falskaar? Is Falskaar worth the same as Dragonborn/Dawnguard due to its size? Is it worth less because of some quality concerns? (Its good, but you notice its a mod nonetheless.) What about something like SkyWind or Luftahraan that is worked on by a larger team? How do you determine value for that? What about mods that rely on assets from other mod makers? What about customer support, who is responsible?

In response to post #24573144. Here's a thought though. Okay, so we determine that they deserve to be paid for their work. We leave in the middle how much a mod is worth (as that would be hard to determine without specifics about each mod). Now comes the next step. As a fresh entrepreneur and software developer - what are your responsibilities towards your product now that you are actually making money off of it? What are the responsibilities for Steam/Valve as distributor of this software? What about those assets you've "borrowed" (with permission) from another modmaker - do they deserve a cut? Does their permission which you got before choosing to sell your mod still count or should you ask whether they are okay with you profiting off of their assets? There is a LOT more to this than just " does a mod maker deserve to be paid for his or her work? " And I definitely agree... 25/75 split distribution isn't even remotely fair. Especially when you consider Valves trackrecord of customer support through Steam Early Access where the goto response is: "You have to be with the content creator for that."

In response to post #24566899. It'll be interesting to see how many mod authors will go for this midway point. Putting up an ultimatum style deal that unless they get paid X they'll move exclusively to Workshop (perhaps not as drastic). Or alternately as someone else suggests, a potential partnership to provide financial benefits for modders with NexusMods or similar.

In response to post #24563004. This, this a thousand times over. Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one that looks beyond the "OMG, I need to pay for mods." issue. I can't agree more with all of these points (and have provided most of them myself aswell). The worst is. We already know from experience how Valve deals with its services. Steam Early Access is the very example of how far they go to provide support and quality assurance/control. Unless they start taking this seriously, their lack of responsibility will do some serious harm to the platform and as such to the industry. Ofcourse not before having done some pretty nasty damage to the modding community.

In response to post #23836199. #23839154, #23845829, #23853369, #23858174, #23858619, #23868714, #23869794, #23870749, #23874494, #23889664, #23897239, #23907889, #23916764, #23947279, #23954734, #23963714, #23965734, #23966599, #23968049, #23982619, #23991979, #23996044, #23996969, #24003409, #24065404, #24074259, #24098119, #24324999, #24346394, #24358294, #24364774, #24365749, #24413559, #24416284, #24562674, #24572154, #24572439 are all replies on the same post.

In response to post #23836199. #23839154, #23845829, #23853369, #23858174, #23858619, #23868714, #23869794, #23870749, #23874494, #23889664, #23897239, #23907889, #23916764, #23947279, #23954734, #23963714, #23965734, #23966599, #23968049, #23982619, #23991979, #23996044, #23996969, #24003409, #24065404, #24074259, #24098119, #24324999, #24346394, #24358294, #24364774, #24365749, #24413559, #24416284, #24562674, #24572154 are all replies on the same post. @Arthmoor - For me, one of the bigger stumbling blocks will be compatibility. While a lot of mods would be worth paying for (Falskaar being an obvious example), at the same time most of us here download mods, try them out, put various mods together. Test often through trial and error untill we reach a balance that we're satisfied with. Would you pay $5 for a mod you're not even sure will work in your setup? There is a secondary concern though. With regards to Valve/Steam. Just look at Steam Early Access. Its a massive flustercluck - customer support is nonexistent and its riddled with half-finished pieces of junk. Moreover, due to the legal status of this, its a wild west. There are barely any explicit regulations in place to enforce anything. By all rights Early Access falls straight in the "Digital Goods" section of consumer law - yet its impossible to enforce anything. This won't be any different. So the question isn't as simple as "Does a modder deserve to be paid?" As much as it is: "If a modder gets paid, what are his responsibilities towards his product?" Aswell as: "If Valve/Bethesda start profiting off of mods, what are THEIR responsibilities towards the respective services provided?" Where do you even being to start quantifying what a mod is worth? Not to get started on the whole "Horse Armor" debacle. And plenty of mods would be just that... Freelanced armor/weapon DLC.

In response to post #24568609. I do agree. The "Valve" part in this equation seems to be a bigger problem than the fact that mods get a pricetag. While not everyone is willing to pay - most will fairly judge that there are plenty of mods that would be worth paying for. But we already know how Valve handles customer support when it comes to Steam Early Access. And this will undeniably be no different. Valve will point the finger to the content creator and wash its hands of any and all responsibilities. Something doesn't work? Not out problem. Unless Valve draws upon the support of a platform like Nexusmods and gets tools like Mod Organizer - it will be impossible to any form of extensive modding through their service. And unless they step up their game on the customer service side - I don't see any justification in them getting such a large share of the revenue. Though one may argue that if this takes up, it isn't entirely unreasonable to see alternate deals come to the table where the modders, communities such as Nexusmods and other relevant parties approach Bethesda directly to come to a different agreement. Whether that be good or bad I won't judge.

In response to post #24569149. #24569594, #24571784 are all replies on the same post. There is a fair midpoint in this though. One could argue that your work is undeniably essential to a healthy modding environment. But all that that really means is that your work also deserves payment and recognition alongside that of the modders. While I'm not sure if I would pay for it, and if I would how much either work would be worth. (I simply have not considered it enough...) I do believe that both are a considerable investment of time and energy and should not be beyond rewarding one way or another. Modders could easily provide people such as you with the resources needed so that you could still do your work without having to pay for it. Frankly I think the bigger issue comes from the other side. Which is the support after the fact. We've seen how Valve handles its support through Steam Early Access... That is a massive disaster. Its a safe bet this project won't be any different. And there is good reason why most of the 'less casual' modders prefer Nexus over Steam Workshop... Since it neither has the means not the documentation to provide adequate support. How does Valve intend to ensure people won't just take their Workshop mods and then refund (or share it among friends)? How does Valve intend to manage the use of third party Mod Managers/Mod Organizers? How many of the modmakers have considered consumer law and taxes - once they start selling a product they will carry a number of responsibilities. And perhaps to a lesser extent - what about permissions? Wet and Cold seems to be upfront in this example as it is one of the first to move. And it has a list of 10~15 mods it gives credit for assets used. Somehow I doubt that the author of Wet and Cold got these permissions under the understanding that Wet and Cold would be acquiring revenue...