theoneandonlyboiler

Cool to get input from someone with experience in this. I was in the army to, but that would be the swiss army, which means I never got beyond training and exercise. Compared to you guys we're nothing but amateurs. And I doubt our combat loads (which we only use on exercises obviously) are anywhere near as heavy as yours. The only times we reach 100+ lbs (if ever) is when moving from one base to another with all our stuff. And it's certainly not something I'd want to experience for any extended period of time. But for gameplay purposes we have to "bend the rules" somewhat to keep things fun. Of course having your character run around with 120lbs would create serious health problems in the long run. But on the other hand playing a big gun character is only possible with that kind of carry capacity. So in the end we have to come up with something that is as realistic as possible but can still support all possible characters and play styles. I don't see what I want to do as a full on realism mod. That I leave to others. What I want to achieve is more like a rebalancing to make things more challenging and satisfying while trying to get as much realism in as possible. But gameplay balance and fun is clearly my first goal.

Now that would be absolutely awesome! I just hope someone makes such a mod as I doubt my skills are sufficient for something as complex as this. I'm sure I could make a simple brahmin follower if I put my mind to it, but backpacks and upgrades along with behavioral stuff would need some serious scripting I guess, which is not my strength.

First, I really, really hate loadscreens. Every loadscreen breaks immersion and every fast travel causes a loadscreen. Second, the wasteland is a dangerous place. Traveling from one location to another may get you ambushed or lead you through hazardous terrain (the glowing sea). Skipping that just doesn't feel right to me. And it really improves my gameplay experience to do all that walking/running around the map. If I want to go somewhre I have to check what time it is to see if I have enogh daylight left. I have to think about what I will have to take with me based on the route I will take and what I might encounter while traveling. And it's not like I have never used fast travel. I did make heavy use of it in FO3 and Oblivion until I realised that it was hurting my experience. Then I stopped using it and had a much better time playing those games. I did revert back to using it after I started playing FO4 fo a while because now I had to take all that junk with me that in previous games could just be ignored. But again it started to frustrate the hell out of me so I started over with a new character, didn't use fast travel and I'm a much happier person because of it :wink: Of course people get stronger. And it would be ok if FO4 had a system that let's you improve a stat by 1 point every few levels or so. But no, you can get your 3 STR character all the way up to 10 STR by level 8 if you want. Sorry but that's just silly. And you do realize that not all people can get the same level of strength? No matter how hard they train, some people are just weaker than other. I'm playing a rather small framed women as my FO4 character and for roleplaying purposes I find it just silly that she would have a STR of 10 at some point, no matter how much stuff she hauls around all day. Also there is balancing to take into consideration. RPG's have always been about the players balancing out the character stats in a way that suits their play style. And I think it's a great mechanic because you can't create a perfect character. It will always have strengths and weaknesses and one of the challenges in RPG's is to live with the weaknesses or try to compensate them in some way. Giving the player the possibility to max out all stats takes that away, makes it meaningless. What I would like most are derived stats that are tied to skills and activities. Like each stat is linked to some skills, those improve by actually using them (like in TES) and they also improve their linked stat. Like, say you use heavy guns a lot which improves that skill it would also improve your strength. Or if you run and jump a lot that would improve athletics and acrobatics which in turn would improve your agility. This would be much more natural and realistic. But instead we have a system where I can gain levels by building stuff and then improve my rifle skills with the xp earned. Yeah, sure, whatever... Well, best would be if your character would get slower the more it carries up to the point where it can no longer move. That damned threshold up to which it suffers no penalty whatsoever is one of the dumbest things anyone ever came up with.

I've never played any RE game, but that sounds great. I know that. But while that technically solves the problem it is a bit tedious to throw the stuff on the ground and then command your companion to pick it up. And back at the base you have to get it back from them. I'd rather have a system that works by itself and lets me play the game instead of managing inventories.

Which is why I will probably leave ammo weightless. But I will also have a look at difficulty settings. Just making enemies spongy has nothing to do with difficulty. Im thinking more along the lines of just increasing their damage output so that the player dies a lot faster while still being able to dispatch of most enemies with a reasonable amount of ammo usage. I'm only building up two at the moment, and a third one as peronal base. However I'm going way over the size limit with both settlements which is why I need ungodly amounts of materials. The larger one already rivals Diamond City and I'm still building. I always have a companion with me and have all the shops set up at my two settlements. And I do buy shipments of stuff I don't get enough of from looting (wood mainly). However, I like the scavenging, it's how I want to play. And Bethesda clearly intended this to be a gameplay option. They just didn't think it through which is why it needs fixing. Oh yes, the brahmin follower. In FO3 I had Bess the brahmin installed for that exact reason. See, this is not the first time I'm doing a mod like this. I did something similar in FO3 and then used the brahmin mod to counteract the low carry capacity. This was really great, just traveling around the wastes with my faithful Bess. I'm sure we will see something like that for FO4 to, or maybe I even try it myself. Shouldn't be too hard i guess. And you're right, once one starts to mod the game for more realism it can tear down the whole balancing (such as it is). Which is why I will leave some things alone as it would just have to much of an effect on other aspects of the game that I simply don't have the time to mess around with. Sure, I would love for ammo to have weight, but the consequences on balance this would have in combination with the severely limited carry weigth I'm planning would be severe. So I will probably leave it alone.

Well, although I personally don’t like consoles for various reasons I certainly would never judge anyone based on the system they choose to play their games on. If someone can live with all the drawbacks a console has compared to a desktop computer that’s their choice. But it certainly doesn’t say anything about what kind of a player they are. There are serious and casual players on all systems. And if sometimes it looks as if I dislike casual players that’s only because the large number of casual players affects how the big developers choose to design their games. There is a tendency to cater more and more to casual players and less to more serious or hardcore players. So, there is of course nothing wrong with casual playing, but the side effects of most people being casual players does somewhat lower the fun I can get out of these games as I don’t like that approach. So I’m not angry at the players, but at the developers for only catering to one group of players while more and more ignoring the other. And Bethesda is a perfect example of that. If I ever find the time to play FNV I will certainly do that :smile: Yeah, but they should be :wink: Look, that is the great thing about modding. We see something in a game that we don't like? So we sit down and change it. Now I still feel Bethesda could have included some survival features in vanilla FO4, but that is really not what this thread is about (well at least not initially). It is about me changing something that I don't like about FO4 and asking the community what they think about my suggestions. I thought that would be clear from my initial post, but maybe not. So I’ll try to further elaborate my thought process regarding this. As you stated quite correctly, complete realism in a game can’t be achieved. There will always have to be compromises to keep the game enjoyable. When I look at the inventory system and gameplay mechanics of FO4 and what I think is wrong with them, I see that it can’t be fixed completely. So I have to come up with a satisfying compromise that will enhance the gameplay experience for me. To achieve this I first look at what bothers me and then I try to come up with a solution to fix it. If it can’t be fixed I try to figure out if at least I could improve it. If that isn’t possible either I try to at least change it in a way so that it is no longer an annoyance. In this case there are two things that bother me: 1. The ability to carry more weapons and aid items than would realistically be possible To me it feels wrong to always have the right weapon for every situation, to always have enough aid and buff items whenever I need them. To me it feels wrong that I should be able to go on any quest without planning or preparing. I really like limitations in games, even though they can be frustrating at times. I like them because they make me think, because they challenge me to make the right decision and force me to improvise when it turns out that I made the wrong one. Now this can easily be fixed by limiting the carry weight to something realistic through adjusting the related stats, perks and buffs. This limits the players ability to carry multiple weapons and a lot of aid/buff items and forces them to plan ahead and make hard decisions. In my eyes this would be a huge improvement over the current situation. 2. The constant hassle with all the junk I need to build and craft So the game allows you to carry only a limited amount of junk based on how much you can carry overall and how much of that is already used for weapons, armor etc.. Now basically that would be ok if it would affect difficulty or have some meaning towards gameplay balance. However, the amount of junk you can carry doesn’t impact difficulty or gameplay balance in any meaningful way and requires you to more or less frequently go back to your base or one of your settlements to unload. In fact, the amount you can carry is completely arbitrary and neither reflects reality nor any difficulty or gameplay balancing need. All it does is waste the players time by having them to constantly sort through their inventory to see what they can leave behind and having to constantly unload that stuff at a save location (base, settlement, etc.). Also, if not connected through supply lines one has to manually haul the junk between settlements if one want’s to build something at a new location. Which is fine, except it can only be done either in insufficient quantities requiring multiple trips, or by first scrapping everything since components are lighter than the original junk items and thus allow the player to carry much more. Both those options are extremely tedious. Now there is no way to improve, much less solve this in a realistic manner that I can see. So I’m left with only one option. To try and change it in a way that at least improves the gameplay experience somewhat. This is why I came up with the idea to make it completely weightless. I mean let’s face it, in terms of realism it doesn’t matter if you can carry 200lbs of junk or unlimited amounts of it. Both is impossible, but the latter means much less hassle for the player. So, yeah, weightless junk is unrealistic. But it is the compromise I have to make so I can at least limit the gear the player can carry. Overall I think this would feel much more realistic and balanced than the current situation. Now that is of course my opinion with which you don’t have to agree. And I’m open for better solutions if someone has one. Well I'm level 50 and still don't feel like I have enough caps to do it your way. We clearly have completely different play styles.

The best inventory system I ever came across was Chrome. Here is a screenshot of it: https://aeronextedit.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/chrome_06_normal.jpg It almost drove me nuts sometimes, but that's what a good inventory system should do. Make you cry tears of desperation because you can't fit everything in it that you'd like :wink:

Ok, just to make sure I'm not misunderstood. Of course everything I wrote and will write in this thread is my opinion. I'm not saying everyone should see things the same way I do and I'm perfectly aware that there are a lot of players who are happy with the game as is. But I'm not, which is why I'm planning on making a mod that will improve the experience for me. Now if anyone thinks what I'm proposing will not improve the game for him/her that's fine. If I'm making this mod I will make it for me first and foremost. I just thought I start a thread here for people who might be interested to see these or similar changes made to FO4 and maybe get a discussion going on how exactly this could be implemented and balanced to get the best experience possible out of it. First, I'm not mocking anyone or anything. Sorry if what I wrote came across that way. It certainly wasn't intended. And imposing limits on my character myself, make sure I eat, drink and sleep if it is not required is not the same as if the game would impose the limits and force me to do those things. I'm already forcing myself to let my character sleep every night. But there were situations where that wasn't possible so I had to skip or postbone it. The problem was of course that my character didn't suffer penalties for this beacause it wasn't actually required. That's why I want these things as a game mechanic, so that if I ignore it for whatever reason my character suffers some penalty for it. Of course they never promised that. But just because they didn't doesn't mean they shouldn't have. Look, I'm perfectly aware that this is not an oversight but a conscious decision by Bethesda. All I'm saying is that I believe the game would be much better with some survival aspects thrown in. Hell, the scnario begs for it! And no, those mods I'm talking about are not just dumb reminders. They add penalties for not eating, drinking and sleeping up to the point where your character will simply die if you keep ignoring it. So they make the game more challenging and add a whole new aspect of gameplay that simply isn't there if you're just doing all these things on a voluntary basis. Yes, realism in any game is a tricky beast. And as I said, complete realism is probably impossible. All I want is enough realism to make the game more challenging and enjoyable. I'm aware that not all players want that, which is why I wrote in my last post that Bethesda could have made that optional like it was in New Vegas. They pride themselves with making games that allow for a multitude of play styles yet completely ignore the players who would like more challenge and realism. And these players clearly exist as one can easily see by looking at all the mods for Bethesda games that address those aspects. Ok, now I'm wondering if you even read my post or if you just quickly run over it. Since I'm proposing to make all junk weightless there would be no going back and forth. I could carry as much of the stuff as I want to. The only things that would weigh something would be weapons, armor, explosives, food, beverages and chems. That is a problem I have right now, which is why I'm proposing to make that stuff weightless. Again, this should have been clear from my initial post. Then please enlighten me how. I get most my cash from selling stuff, not from actually finding any. And believe me, I look in every container and in every corner. Now of course I use tons of money on ammo since my wandering arouond the wasteland instead of using fast travel gets me into quite a few fights I wouldn't get into otherwise.

@ Boombro Well, balancing is all I'm talking about. It just happens to be the same thing as adding realism in this case. Look, right now I'm running around with 7 weapons, full armor and a wide variety of aid items in quantiities far beyond what I will ever need during a single quest. And this is only using half my carry weight! I never have to plan ahead, never have to think about which weapon I will need and I never have to have a strategy because I'm always prepared for anything. You call this balanced? Well I certainly don't! This casual approach takes a lot of fun out of the game. FO4 could be such a fantastic survival RPG, it could force the player to plan ahead, to prepare for each quest, to have a strategy, to manage scarce ressources, to make hard choices during character creation and on level up. But no, Bethesda decided to make it a casual shoot-fest with just a hint of RPG elements for flavor and no challenge whatsoever. And this really pisses me off! But fortunately I know my way around the GECK, so I will fix what I can to bring at least some of the survival feeling and challenge into the game that should have bee there from the beginning. Fixing the inventory will just be part of it. I will also rebalance the whole perk chart, greatly reducing the bonuses per perk and adding a whole bunch of new ones so the player is forced to specialise more. And I find it interesting that you talk about other aspects of the game not beeing realistic and then throw in the limb healing. Because that is another thing that desperatley needs fixing. In FO3 at least you had to treat the limb directly, now you just use a stimpack normally to fix everything. Another example of Bethesda making stuff more and more casual. However fixing this goes beyond my capabilities, but I'm sure other, more skilled modders will do it. And I'm also looking forward to mods that require you to eat and drink and sleep as well. Because that is how it should be. Right now all that s*** is just optional and gives you some negligible bonus, while it should be required for survival. Yes I know there are players who don't want to have to deal with suff like that, but then just make an option in the game menu to turn it on or off for christ's sake! New Vegas did it, so why on earth not FO4? It is completely beyond me why Bethesda decided to not include such a crucial feature. But we digress... As for the scenario not beeing realistic. What's got that to do with anything? I'm talking about making the gameplay more realstic and thus more challenging and satifying. The scenario of the game not beeing realistic doesn't cancel out realistic gameplay mechanics. Where did you get that idea? And yes I agree that you can go to far with that idea because you would reach a point where the game stops beeing fun and becomes frustrating and tedious. I'm well aware of that and even mentioned it in my initial post. But some realism can actually make a game more fun as it improves immersion and makes things more challenging. FO4 in its current state is completely casual and offers no challenge whatsoever. This needs to be fixed. And I believe throwing some realism in might just do the trick. And yes, I do consider the broken inventory system, the absence of survival mechanics and other missing realism flaws. Why? Because the game would be better with those features fixed/added and their state/absence frustrates the hell out of me. Now don't get me wrong, I love the hell out FO4 and have already put over 250 hours into it. But that makes those flaws hurt even more and I'm really looking forward to start a new character once all that stuff is fixed/added either by myself or other modders. And for the "just buy shipments" comment. There are two things I'd like to say to that: First, that's just ignoring the problem by using a different option. Now I don't say you shouldn't do that. If buying shipments works for you that's perfectly ok. But scavenging junk for your building needs has to be viable as well as it was clearly intended by the developers. But right now, because of how the inventory and encumbrance work, it sadly isn't. And second, to get the ammount of materials I need for building I would be constatantly running around the commonwealth just to buy these shipments. And considering how much these cost I can't even begin to imagine the amount of caps and pre-war money I would have to find to buy them. So for my playstyle, it really isn't a viable option.

Hi there Encumbrance is one thing that has bothered me in almost every game that has an inventory system, and Fallout 4 makes no exception. Actually, because of some of the new features in FO4 (settlement building mainly) it may even have become the worst offender in that regard. The problem is that I find I can immerse myself better the more realistic a game is. I know 100% realism can’t be achieved and there will always be compromises to keep a game fun and not make it frustrating or tedious just for the sake of realism. But there are things that really break immersion for me like fast travel (which I never use), any kind of loading screen (the fewer a game has the better) and inventory systems like the ones Bethesda uses since Morrowind. My main Problems here are two things. First, the weight limit starts out so high that no matter how weak your character is, you will always be able to haul around a huge arsenal of weapons, wear a full set of heavy armor and carry a ton of aid-items on top of that. This is just not realistic at all and makes the game easier than it should be since you always have the right weapon with you, are well armored and can spam-heal yourself no problem with your almost infinite stimpacks. And second, the weight limit that the game imposes on you makes no sense whatsoever, neither for balance nor gameplay nor difficulty reasons. Because it starts out high enough so you don’t have a limitation in terms of gear and aid, the only thing it limits is the amount of junk you can carry, which doesn’t have an impact on anything except maybe how fast you can make some money. But if you’re willing to use fast travel that becomes a joke too. I mean we’ve certainly all done it. Just drop all your loot in a container near the fast travel point and once you’ve cleared out the area just fast travel back and forth until you have sold or stored everything. Rinse and repeat at next location. Or if you’re like me and don’t use fast travel you waste hours watching your overencumbered character slowly walking back to your base, carrying literally tons of junk. So, a weight limit that only impacts the amount of junk you can carry doesn’t affect difficulty in a meaningful way, it only makes the game more or less tedious. This becomes especially apparent in Fallout 4 where now every goddamned item is useful. I mean before you could just take the most valuable stuff up to your weight limit and then leave the rest. Now however you have to take all that s*** with you because you actually need it. So the weight limit which for me before was something I largely ignored suddenly became the single most important stat of the player character. I made a character with 3 STR for FO4 and now find myself constantly drugging her and hunting for radstags (for the carry-bonus of grilled radstag) just so she can carry more. I find this especially frustrating because I wanted to roleplay her as someone who doesn’t take drugs. So, yeah, if you want to build settlements you have to play a max STR character and constantly keep it drugged? Is that it Bethesda? The only things the player characters strength should impact are melee/unarmed damage and how much gear (not junk) one can haul around. In the previous games the weight limit may have made no sense, but now it is completely broken. And no, I will not max out the strength of my character by spending levels on strength. Because that this is even a possibility is an abomination of RPG mechanics. I have done it once (increasing STR from 3 to 4) because I got fed up by the problems the inventory system of FO4 causes and I still feel guilty about it. It’s just something that cannot be. You select your stats at the start and then live with them! But that is another discussion… So here is what I have come up with to solve this. First, the carry weight of the player character needs to be adjusted to something realistic. As someone who has been in the army I know how it is to walk around and fight (thankfully only simulated) all day with a full pack on my back and an assault rifle in my hands. So I would suggest (assuming the weight is in lbs) to start with a base of 60lbs and then add 6lbs for every point in strength which would max out at 120lbs with 10 STR. That off course is still somewhat over the top, but it is not unheard of for soldiers to carry that much on certain assignments. Now this would actually make weight limit an important consideration on character creation as it severely limits the amount of weapons you can have on your character as well as the type of armor you can wear. And it would also limit the amount of aid-items as there certainly would not be much weight left to carry a lot of those except if you make a high STR character that only uses small guns and light armor. But that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Such things have to be a consideration during character creation. What do I want to do, what do I need to carry, how much strength do I need for that? Right now it only goes two ways: do I want do use unarmed and melee or not. If yes high STR is useful, if no I might as well go with 1 STR as it just doesn’t matter. Only other considerations would be the armorer perk which needs 3 STR and is useful for any type of character and of course the carry weight, but that will be too low in any case… Now if you’re looking at those 120lbs max carry weight and think that this is too low to play a big guns heavy armor character you’re of course right. However there are perks and armor mods (which would also need to be adjusted) to help with that as well as the possibility to use power armor. Again, I feel this is how it should be. Right now you don’t have to think or plan or make hard choices to play such a character, which I feel is just wrong. For me, RPG’s should always be about thinking, planning and making hard choices when it comes to your character. If you can play whatever the hell you want without tradeoffs and even switch mid game if you feel like it (as it is now in FO4) it becomes boring. I also feel that stimpacks should weigh something. Right now I’m playing extremely careless because I know I can always spam heal my character should she get injured. And I don’t even care about effective armor or perks and aid items that improve damage resistance or HP. And the doctor’s all over the wasteland are completely useless because I have always enough stimpacks or rad away in my inventory. So having the stimpacks weigh something would force the player to be more careful with their characters health and those perks and aid items would suddenly become much more interesting. And then there is the ammo. I’m really not sure what I should do with it. I would really love to have it weigh something. However I’m afraid that it could take the whole idea too far and make the game frustrating or force the player too much to play in a certain way (avoiding combat to conserve ammo). You see, players who like me don’t use fast travel will need much more ammo than players who use fast travel. It is not uncommon for me to use up hundreds of rounds on a single mission. Now if those would have realistic weight we would be talking about several pounds of additional weight. Now back to my 60lbs and 6lbs per STR. This would mean the minimum would be 66lbs for a 1 STR character. And let’s say you would equip it with light leather armor and a helmet, a combat rifle and a 10mm as backup (all with the heaviest mods possible) we would already be talking 68.7lbs. Now considering I calculated with all the heaviest mods it would probably end up somewhere below that depending on each players mod preferences, but still. Considering aid items this would either leave no room for ammo or you would have to sacrifice either some protection or the second gun. The Problem only gets worse when we start talking about big guns. Now of course for that you would make a much stronger character. But considering how much rockets, mini nukes and cannonballs should realistically weigh… I’m sure you see the problem here. So right now I’d say this needs to be one of these compromises that have to be made to keep the game fun and not make it frustrating. But I’m of course open for suggestions. As far as grenades and mines go, I’d say they should definitely weigh something. However I’m torn between leaving them as is (which is to light) or making them heavier. To solve the problem with all the junk you need for crafting and building, why not simply make it weightless? Seriously, how much of that stuff you can carry doesn’t’ affect difficulty at all. And there is no way that I can see to solve this in an even halfway realistic manner (unless we could change the gameplay mechanics). And not having to care about it would make the game flow much more naturally and safe a shitload of time for actually playing instead of tediously sorting through your inventory or traveling back and forth to get all that s*** to your base. In terms of realism it’s exactly the same as before. Before you could already carry amounts of junk that were nowhere near realistic, so why not go all the way and let the player carry as much as he wants to? Now of course all this would make it almost impossible to loot guns and armor off corpses, except if you leave room on your character for that. But even then what you could loot would be extremely limited. But I think unlimited junk carrying would be a decent enough compensation for this. The only problem I see here is with the legendary items. But considering they are mostly useless anyway I believe it should be manageable. Just have some grilled radstag or a drug that enhances STR with you in case you actually find one that is worth taking back to your base. Last point regarding this are the companions. I believe I should be lowering their carry weight as well, because if they could carry several weapons it would somewhat defeat the purpose of limiting the carry weight of the player character. However I don’t see a problem with them carrying one or maybe even two extra guns for the player, with some characters being able to haul larger weapons than others. So overall I think those changes would add much more realisms in terms of how much equipment and aid items you could have with you, doesn’t change the realism in terms of how much ammo and junk you can carry and give a much more challenging, fluid and satisfying gameplay experience. So, once the GECK comes out this is what I will do. Any thoughts or suggestions?

@ prensa Ok, I see your point. I'll try that along with the other things. The mod is the last in my load order. I also checked for conflicts with other mods. But so far all the mods I'm running don't seem to overlap anywhere.

Actually, i didn't make a separate mod to test the second NPC, i created it in the mod I'm working on. I will try making it a seperate mod then and see if that helps. I didn't try any other locations since it doesn't matter if it works somewhere else. Either I can place the body in the depot or I'll just leave it be. It's really the only place that fit's what I'm aiming at.

Yes, that was my thought as well. But remember, this only shows when it works, so... ;-) And the second body i created had no andbox on him but didn't show up either... I'm really out of ideas here... For now i deleted both NPC's and will continue work on other parts of the mod. I hope in the meantime someone will come up with a solution or maybe I'll think of something. It woul really be great if I could get this to work because it's really a nice backstory for the home I created outside the depot (inside the watertower) and the player would actually have to fight trough the depot and look for the body of the former owner to get the key for it.

@ SoulReaver911 Althoug I already did it more or less the same way the first time, I made a new NPC following your steps. Same result. @ prensa Yep, health is at 0, respawn unticked. Setting it to persistent also doesn't help.

@ prensa Nope, didn't help... But thanks for the suggestion.