monganfinn

he ended the interregnum after the death of Ocato, he didn´t start it however that said, one of the above posts said something that resonated with me, if I play as a Nord dragonborn I always want to emulate Wulfharth and he would certainly not tolerate the Mede Empire´s hold on Skyrim. To me, a dragonborn overthrowing an empire and helping found a new young and rising kingdom is a far better story than a dragonborn beating down a rebellion of his kin that seek to venerate his forebear. And in Tamriel songs are everything! Another argument I often hear is that the Nords should seek to hold together the Empire Talos build, but the current empire is most certainly not the empire of Tiber Septim and Talos, it is the Empire of the Mede no matter how much they want to hold onto the name of the Septims to legitimize themselves!

We can see Ulfric´s Thuum ingame, he clearly isn´t able to shout npcs into dust the way the player can after reading the black books. Nevertheless let us not forget that in RL the unrelenting force shout would be far more devastating than ingame and could easily cause broken limbs or even death if you have a bad fall. Stormcloak territory is definitely a relatively safe harbor for ex Blades, Esbern is another example, though if we assume Fultheim IS an ex Blade - this makes two ex Blades that hide in the Old Holds yet didn´t join the Cloaks! IMO the Blades themselves simply aren´t Ulfric sympathizers, for them it isn´t about Skyrim but just their beef with the Thalmor. In that way they could be the most anti-Thalmor group around. An interesting aspect however is Sky Haven Temple, the dissolution of the Blades was a part of the WGC - if Skyrim remains part of the Empire, how long till the Thalmor force the Empire to besiege the last bastion of the Blades? We know from cut content that Ulfric was meant to lead several battles of the civil war himself, in contrast to Tullius - but regard cut content as you will, we also know he fought at Markarth and can assume it was his Thuum that actually allowed his militia to sack the city. During the Great War he would have been very young and wasn´t a high ranking soldier, as Rikke was his superior officer even then, nevertheless as a noble he wouldn´t have been rank and file, and he would have fought the same way other officers of the same rank would have fought. As he was captured by the Dominion he also was clearly on the front lines. For his participatin in the Great War he is being treated as a war hero ingame, even just knowing what we saw ingame the assumption that he was a coward who hid behind his underlings is so baseless I do not even know why I respond to this... As the Great War was 25 years ago IMO Tullius wasn´t a general back then, a legate with his own legion perhaps, but clearly we must assume that someone with a human lifespan would not have been a general for that long and still be as spry as Tullius. Sadly we do not know what happened to General Jonna, Tullius´ predecessor as the military governor of Skyrim. If we say that Tullius is perhaps 50 to 60 years old (TES clearly has relatively long human lifespans for nobility at least due to magic) then he would have been around 30 during the Great War, seeing as he wouldn´t have joined the Legion before being at least 15 to 20 this means that Tullius spend the major part of his military career putting down petty city revolts like the ones described in Cicero´s journal! And his leather armor is clearly ceremonial. Concerning the Markarth Incident: If we assume Ulfric truly did order mass executions (though I reiterate that the only source that accuses him of such is a propaganda book, everyone else speaks as the one having done extreme things back then "the Jarl" and Ulfric wasn´t a jarl back then), and that such actions aren´t totally in line with what is the norm in Tamriel, wouldn´t that just have been the same as what the Imperials do? Let´s look at what happened at Helgen ... there too the Imperials send everyone to the executioner´s block who fell into their hands, Lokir, who was no rebel and only a thief/failed thief, and the PC who wasn´t even on their gods damned list. Them and all the other Stormcloaks didn´t even receive a trial simply based on the orders of a single general - the same as it might have happened in Markarth! Lachdonin always "preaches" that the outcome of the civil war needs to be inconclusive, as otherwise the individual decisions of the player would become void to make room for canon, I agree, however, rather than the civil war continuing on with other leaders and reinforcements, or the Dominion conquering Skyrim, IMHO I agree with jpmonteith - the player ending of the civil war will become unimportant due to the dissolution of the Empire itself! And who the first new High King of Skyrim was will simply not be recorded in the history books.

My comparison between the courts wasn´t meant to mean that the jarls handle all the matters of their hold by themselves, but rather that these holds still run smoothly even without involving thanes that much as the court of Solitudes does. Anuriel for example is a steward, so her inlfuence does not contradict my opinion that Bryling and Erikur pretty much take over the slack that Elisif doesn´t do on her own. If there´s a strong jarl there is little reason for thanes, even when the player is given the title the jarls always say it is more of a honorary position and it is like that everywhere but in Solitude. What I meant to argue is that the court of Solitude is not running exceptionally well compared to others, they just have the richest city and thus look good compared to those courtmembers of other cities. Riften and Markarth are exceptional cases where the jarl is not really all that much in control of politics. Stentor going to sleep after the Potema quest is just a bug. You can join Boethia´s cult (then you kill them off), the Namira cultists remain (though I don´t know if they ever show up at the shrine again?), by becoming a vamp you theoretically join a cult of Molag Bal or if you join the Companions you would be part of a cult of Hircine and then there are the Nightingales of Nocturnal. But yeah, it would be nice if they would give you more than just an entry-quest. The Companions however do have the werewolf totems to worship and I always throw Sinding into the Hircine-Cult-Companion mix in my headcanon.

There´s a lot of cut content for the Solitude court: a quest for Boethia has you murder Elisif, Erikur becomes her replacement and Bryling was slated to be the replacement jarl incase of a stormcloak victory. Even in the uncut dialogue Bryling shows sympathy for the stormcloaks IMO and she and Falk are lovers according to Sybille. While the Solitude court seems to work quite well the whole case with Stentor (summoning of Potema and vampires infiltrating the city) shows that not all is well in the city. (If one believes the prison warden and Erikur´s court mage then they practically have the Qyburn of Tamriel in Stentor.) Furthermore Stentor claims that without her the whole city would soon sink into chaos, so apparently the other members of court aren´t so well suited to do the business, or Stentor errs, but since all the others do nothing to refute her verbal abuse it doesn´t seem so. I would also disagree with the claim that the court of Solitude works well together and is balanced: when listening to Stentor it´s as if she rules the whole court and without her everything would fall apart, the thanes claim that they do not put their trust in Elisif but rather Tullius, one thane is the lover of the steward and the other is a jerkass according to his own sister and has his fingers in the business of the Thieves Guild. Now Solitude is probably the largest city of Skyrim and definitely the wealthiest and it shows with their thanes, who are both merchants, consequently military matters seem to mainly rest on the imperial general sitting in Castle Dour, aka Tullius in the 4E20x years. As such I question how much military (and non-military) authority Elisif and her court even truly have and how much rests with Tullius as well as if two thanes are even necessary. Among any of the cities of Skyrim, Solitude has the most court-members, this may be because of the city´s size, but pretty much all the other cities make due without a single thane! Balgruuf pretty much is a one-man show, sure Avenicci, Hrongar, Irileth and Farengar give him counsel but in the end he always disregards them (Hrongar´s warmongering and Avenicci councel from his daugther or his own? is at least ignored in the Riverwood matter) if they do not share his opinions (and Farengar never involves himself with politics unlike Stentor, actually Stentor is the only court mage I can recall who is truly involved in the court´s politics) - what I want to say is: aye, Solitude´s court functions well together but every other city makes due with a jarl making all the decisions alone (disregarding Markarth and Riften, which are another matter alltogether as they are practically run by crime families beneath the jarl´s nose).

This is a civil war and not a conquest of a foreign land nor an all out war, as such IMO both sides act very restrained when it comes to using force against civilians and something like you propose wouldn´t happen. Apart from Karthwasten we hear of nothing that could constitute am attack on civilians, and then we don´t really know what happened at Karthwasten. Also the commoners wouldn´t really care about who rules them anyway: we even hear in the cities conquered by the cloaks that life continues on quite normally, even for non Nords. The only thing that changes are the rulers and the High King isn´t elected by the commoners but by the Jarls each side put into power and thus no has much on an interest in pressuring the people into obedience, as long as they don´t rise up in civil revolts. After the respective capitals are taken (Solitude/Windhelm) the player gets charged with rooting out any further troops stationed at the war camps of the enemy faction. The problem I see with this is that the civil war is a battle of ideologies. I´d see them joining with the Legion if Tullius tells them they would be fighting the Thalmor right the next moment, but not really otherwise. Also first the cloaks would all need to be captured and transported to place where Tullius would show up, remember that Tullius isn´t much of a frontline guy even the in the cut content where at least Ulfric was more of a presence on the battlefield. The LDB could probably do it, but then again I don´t understand how the LDB couldn´t just end the whole conflict by his decree, I mean every side that he´s the enemy off would normaly just surrender if he is as powerful as lore states.

I believe those are all actions done by Tiber Septim/Hjalti, Wulfharth or Zurin Arctus, Cyrodiil might have been deforested by Tiber Septim but he was still a living being back then and no "posthumous" god. On one hand you become a legate within the empire with the generals, grand marshal, elder councillors, province rulers, emperor + family above you. On the other hand you become the new High King´s right hand man beside Galmar, the hierarchy in an independant Skyrim is certainly flatter than in the empire. Furthermore if Ulfric´s renewal of the old customs gets supported by the Jarls in the Moot what keeps your LDB from acting on those old customs and simply challenging Ulfric to a duel??

I´m sorry about not using quotes, but I have a problem with staying connected to the forum for longer periods of time and thus I´m writing my posts always in word and then copy and paste them - thus please excuse that I do not quote. The AD will take Skyrim if they have the chance, that much is certain. Yes, if they ever have the chance - I´m arguing though that due to geographical, political and climate reasons they won´t have a chance. To even reach Skyrim they would have to somehow bypass Breton-, Orc-, Redguard- or Empire troops. The AD navy might be the best navy of Tamriel and even beyond but I don´t see them establishing a working supply line through the frozen Sea of Ghosts. They already have Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, and Valenwood, do you honestly think they'll stop there? The AD does NOT have Hammerfell, after Hammerfell left the Empire, which would have given the AD the southern regions of Hammerfell in the WGC, the Redguards fought a 5 year long war along the southern coast and then the AD had to give up the southern regions they had conquered during the Great War to sign a peace treaty. The AD MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT have the Hist children of Argonia under their thumb. The AD most certainly will try to take further lands, true, they already tried to do so when they attacked Hammerfell and Cyrodiil and got their teeth kicked in - or in Lord Naarfin´s case was hung from White Gold for it - there´s absolutely no realistic way for them to conquer Skyrim and hold it seeing as the province is surrounded by enemies, cut off from direct supply lines connecting them to AD territory and is apart from Morrowind the province the farthest from AD lands. The only way I see the AD even attacking Skyrim is if the Empire lets them travel through their lands unmolested. And who's to say that the Mede Empire is bad? I make it a point to differentiate between the Empires as the Septim Empire had a huge interest in the Talos being seen as a god since it gave his "descendants" a sort of holy mandate to rule. Something the Mede dynasty cannot latch onto, thus the Mede line has less political interest in the worship of Talos compared to the Septim line. Furthermore I often hear the argument that the Cloaks are disrespecting the Empire founded by Talos, whom they fight for, and their own ancestral troops who had supported Talos. And that is just plain wrong as Talos has nothing to do with the founding of the Mede Empire and no large Nord troops fought for Titus Mede 1st as he sneaked his troops into the Imperial City past another warlord and forced the Elder Council at sword edge to declare him emperor. They have a weakened Empire, can you really blame it? Can I blame the imperial government for not stopping the Thalmor from annexing Elsweyr and Valenwood? - why yes, yes I can. Preventing stuff like that is kinda what they exist for. Titus Mede II was praised for his leadership during the Great War, futile as his resistance was. His resistance was successful, the moment the Empire got their stuff together the AD armies were quickly defeated - the Empire just lost on the intelligence gathering front as they believed the AD to be not ready for war and thus the Empire reacted far too slowly to the invading armies. Sadly we learned from Elder Scrolls Legends that Titus Mede who led the charge against the Imperial City was just a player Hero in disguise (if I remember Lachdonin´s words correctly?) Whether he had accepted the original proposal or not, the outcome would have been the same, but with less casualties, so the Empire WILL push back the AD I don´t understand your thought process, they made a bad decision in the past, not accepting the terms when they could have lulled the AD into complacency, and thus you judge that the Empire will ever get its stuff together to fight a war they don´t really care to have? After all for the common people of the empire and the nobles hardly anything changed. Sure there are Thalmor troops now everywhere, but there always had been snobbish high elves around. Sure you can´t worship Talos publically anymore, but who cares if you can do so in the privacy of your own home? - The Nords do care, but the people of Cyrodiil probably care far less - otherwise the government living there would not have signed the WGC in the first place. IMO at least they would not care enough to start a war that would be fought on their own land and cause many casualties across Cyrodiil again. at SOME POINT And how long should the people of the Empire be content to be spied on, and arrested by a foreign power in the meantime? just give them time to rebuild. How much longer than 25 years? In that time span a whole new generation of human warriors grew up, with plenty of battle ready veterans still being capable to fight as well. titus mede II is removed from the equation... so what then for the Empire? Probably a new civil war over the throne, fanned by the AD. After all even if there are heirs, those could have "accidents" or the Elder Council finally decides to do away with emperors altogether and simply rule themselves - consider that the guy who hired you to kill Titus was an Elder Council member most probably as he had an Elder Council amulet. Do you see now why I do not want to be tied to a dying empire? It won´t recover any time soon. as for Talos being "good" I call that in to question IMO Talos is definitely a positive divine influence for human races. Even if you don´t profit from him directly he is championing humanities cause similar to Shezzar/Shor/Lorkhan. I guess it depends on your view on Lorkhan´s goal if you find him altogether positive or not. I think there's too many Oblivion-philes still around that can't give up on the emotional connection to that game. I second that. But again, Septim =/= Mede. Personally I don´t believe the Empire will EVER start the 2nd Great War, I now I wouldn´t in their shoes! Because as long as the AD keeps to the WGC money flows well in the Empire, peace is certainly more profitable than a risky war on your own soil. Furthermore there is the problem that the Empire won´t anytime soon, if ever, be able to match the AD on water, which means any direct attack on the Summerset Islands is off the table. This leaves the Empire with possible attacks on Elsweyr and Valenwood: both are provinces with an unique climate and terrain where the native Bosmer/Khajiit have the clear advantage. (too bad the Redguards left the Empire, he? They at least could have been useful in attacking Elsweyr) So you see, as things stand, any decisive victory of the Empire over the AD is pretty much impossible. Furthermore history teaches us that empires that far gone don´t recover. Which is why my master plan would be inviting the AD onto mainland Tamriel, where they hopefully will overextend themselves once more in their logistics, and bleed them in Cyrodiil/High Rock/Hammerfell. However the AD will not launch another invasion as long as the Empire has the might to fight them off and since the AD must have spies all across Cyrodiil by now, as they even have them in Skyrim (if the Penitus Oculatus agents consider spying on the Nords hell -novels, then the same must be considered a suicide mission for the high elves) the Empire will not have the chance to give them a false image of themselves. If however the AD thinks Cyrodiil weak as the other provinces all left the Empire, and thus attacks - a surprise alliance between the 4 human provinces could defeat the attacking AD force, they did so once before! A united Empire cannot win a fight against the AD as they would have to attack themselves. IMO a splintered Empire with a secret alliance behind them could create the illusion of weakness and thus lure the AD in and perhaps win.

I've still never taken a side in the Civil War because I've alwyas been of the mind that Skyrim should not be under the thumb of a k ing or an emperor The problem with that is that the longer the civil war rages the more the Thalmor profit from it. Talos Worship is EVERYWHERE I´m pretty sure it´s only widespread in the human provinces and then not even in Hammerfell. They were forced to accept the treaty to end the war, they never wanted to, but they had to. That´s the point where minds part, I´d argue that the Empire could have gotten better terms, that wouldn´t predictably make them loose 2 of their remaining provinces - Hammerfell and Skyrim. The Imperials have an ulterior motive: Remove the Thalmor from Skyrim(and eventually the other provinces) due to this Concordat(which would incite another war, but I think the Empire would be more than ready, given time). So do the cloaks. The question is when if not within 25 years after the war? When the new elven generation has grown up? The Thalmor are fully aware that the Empire wants to push them out, but cannot act on an accusation, they need proof. As Tamriel clearly doesn´t have the UN or any other supranational legal body, which would make proof a necessity for military actions one would think, if the AD has so much more military power than the Empire that the Empire still needs years to come to match them - how come the AD doesn´t simply invade. That the AD follows the terms of the WGC and waited until proof of attempted!! Talos worship - Martkarth Incident, reached them, tells me that their military powers aren´t that great. Now, with Ulfric, oh they have it. No, with Ulfric they got a civil war, which is far more important for them than proof of Talos worship, they could have gotten that as easily as bribing some idiots in Skyrim to rat out their neighbours. Talos is a wonderful god and you cannot tell me otherwise!!! Oh Talos is a "good" god, for humans at least. But Talos, the god, never did anything - so I find it strange that people would admire him. Now as to the three humans that make/made up Talos, at least one of them is a giant a**hole who betrayed his comrades, might have killed his king, might have raped Barenziah, slaughtered elves etc. People keep saying Skyrim doesn't need a King... High King is basically an honorary position =_= Skyrim has been a member of the Empire since Talos founded it, they have ALWAYS served the Emperor. At the same time, each province does have its own laws, regulations, and rulers, but those rulers swear fealty to the Emperor. Managing a Kingdom is a very delicate process. High King was an honorary position under the rule of the Empire, with renewed independence the position would naturally become important again. People! Srsly, this isn´t the Septim Empire any more, it´s the Mede Empire and has little to nothing to do with the Septims apart from still using their dragon sigil. Skyrim has always served the Emperor? Only in the third era, before that Skyrim was mostly independent. And historically the identity of the Septim emperors/empresses has often been heavily disputed: Potema, Katariah etc. As we do not have a codex on the laws/traditions of succession in Skyrim we cannot really say if Ulfric´s challenge to Thorygg was lawful or not. One thing´s for sure though, while some Nords accept it, the Empire doesn´t. So either way the Empire wants to impose its own laws on their provinces, so to say that the provinces have their own laws is thin ice. Need I also remind people that there are several instances where people claim that High King Thorygg himself has thought about leaving the Empire? That idea hasn´t been born with Ulfric, even he claims that it has been imparted on him by his citizen (though I admit that those citizen were probably his close circle or rather the Nord citizen of Windhelm as I doubt the Dunmer and other minorities cared about that at all). If Ulfric's rebellion were to succeed, the Empire would be removed from Skyrim, thus allowing the Thalmor to move in. Basically, if Ulfric's rebellion won, the Thalmor would swing in, full force, with nothing to hold them back. Sorry, but you can´t sell me that the AD would have any chance at conquering Skyrim. And if you wish to tell me that the paramilitary Thalmor agency would move into Skyrim somehow then I have to ask you how come? Since Ulfric´s first order of business would by a purge of all Thalmor across Skyrim. As it was the Empire that signed the WGC and not Skyrim, Ulfric has no reason whatsoever to suffer their presence.

None, we do not get any dialogue lines/actions from Ulfric which would indicate he hates elves as a whole any more than the average Nord. IMO we cannot say what´s best for Skyrim, the future will show us that. After all we cannot say if the Empire will ever recover (with or without Skyrim) and if it doesn´t I find it more logical to cut off the rotting limb rather than let Skyrim be dragged down with it. Thus we have to decide according to personal preferences, and if I play a char whose life centers around Skyrim I´d rather have a ruler who worked for his status and leads by himself and at least claims to act on behalf of his people rather than a puppet queen like Elisif. I find it quite funny that anyone can admire Talos, considering he is the amalgam of 3 people who betrayed and hated each other. And Tiber Septim/Hjalti, the person most consider to be Talos, is a powerhungry, treacherous, egomaniac who will cause the destruction of Nirn because he activated the Numidium! Curse you, Vivec! - who probably knew this would happen whe he gave the machine god to Tiber in the first place.

To be fair to Lachdonin I have to point ou that most of these comparisons were put on the table by others as we wanted to prove that the smaller stormcloak army could defeat a larger, more regimented foe. He also isn´t really wrong, however I do believe he simplifies things too much, but all of these examples simply prove that war is more than just counting the troops and accounting for location etc. Unforseen things happen! Skyrim´s game itself also seems to indicate to me that if there had not been an intervention by the dragonborn or the dragons (+ lets exclude the capture of Ulfric at the beginning) the cloaks could have won against the numerically superior and more regimented legions in Skyrim. If you look the course of the civil war and Ulfric´s dialogue you see that his army steadily grows and that while he at first didn´t have enough troops to attack Whiterun, later on he had them. This just shows that his small warband was growing and expanding, until they began to match the strength of Skyrim´s legions. I admit that this argument probably solves nothing as we will never know how the siege of Whiterun would have turned out if the LDB wouldn´t have taken part in it. Something I totally disagree on with Lachdonin is his opinion that so many of the Stormcloak supporting chars ingame are mentally ill! Beth makes it quite clear with other chars (Narfi, Solitude Sheo worshipper) that they are crazy, they would not need to make it subtle in the Civil War questline.

Well I always understood Lachonin to think an alliance against the AD to be pretty unlikely? So I wanted to point out there is no reason to not think it would be possible apart from his own scepticism. I only meant to illustrate how pointless Lachdonin´s argument was that Tamrielic history depends less on prior examples but more on how Beth wants the story to go. As if we include Beth´s opinions into this discussion we can stop right now as we cannot foresee that. Not so much High Elves than Ayleid. And all that because some Imga couldn´t keep his mouth shut. Fully agree! It works the other way around too, after all the Nedic tribes were probably native to Tamriel, and even the Nords originated from Tamriel and were just driven off to Atmora.

So can we agree that an alliance is possible? If we take into account what Beth may want to do in the future then we can scrap much of this discussion, after all they can change the course of Tamriel´s history outside of the bounds of logic.

The primary focus of the statement is the need to keep the Stormcloaks on relatively even footing with the Empire. No mention anywhere of similar support for the Empire is made. The Dominion is willing to aid the Stormcloaks, going so far as to attempt to intervene in his execution, but make no mention of raising a finger on the opposite side. Naturally, as the Legion is the greater military force there is little need to help them. But to conclude that the Thalmor would only try to prolong the war by helping the Cloaks and not help the Legion is a stretch and mere speculation. We know for a fact that the Thalmor want a continuing war, if they can help the Cloaks in secret why would they not also help the Legion to prolong the war? Your argument that they didn´t mentioned helping the Legion if they have problems doesn´t make any sense as the Thalmor could achieve this protracted war easily by helping both sides. They have no reason not to help the Legion! The continued Dominion presence in Hammerfell is the only consistency between both Kematu and Saadia's stories. That presence cannot be all that great nor powerful if Saadia had to flee to Skyrim of all places. And no, they wouldn't be worse off (though we are told that the southern territories in Hammerfell have been devastated by the war) as was Cyrodiil. but it shows that their extra 5 years of war netted them basically nothing. They're still subject to a Dominion presence, and the only thing they really got back was direct control of a few cities. Those 5 years of war brought them the south coast back and while they may have agents on their land it isn´t militarily occupied and thus hopefully for them they don´t have a new Falinesti, or Night of Green Fire in Sentinel. Others ran to Hammerfell to escape You mean like the Redguards who fled Yokuda? but the Redguard's prospered perhaps because they fled Yokuda in greater numbers than any other? The Rourken were the first people to solidly establish themselves there They were Dwemer, we would have little to no idea how successful they were Tiber Septim had to wait for them to turn against each other to have a chance Tiber in his pre CHIM state is overrated, he didn´t conquer Morrowind, he didn´t conquer the "depths" of the Black Marsh, which is for some reason understood as him never even really having had a hold on the province, and needed Big Stompy for the Elves. For all his fame he did surprisingly little. We simply do not have enough information about how things played out back then and the political/military plots behind the official history. Furthermore, so what if old Tiber´s human legions wouldn´t have been able to fight against a combined Hammerfell? My argument was that as the Khajiit are also desert dwellers the AD shouldn´t have been so much on a backfoot simply because of the terrain of Hammerfell. So, you think it's reasonable to make a major military and political decision on optimism alone? Gambling on nothing but a hope and a prayer may have worked, yes, but that doesn't make it a good decision. And awaiting the inevitable internal strife is better?! The Hammerfell and Talos clauses were obviously meant to split apart the Empire and they ran into this trap with open eyes. The were fact that they haven´t waged a war in retribution after 25 years and are in the risk of losing a second province without anything obvious like an alliance with the Argonians or Dunmer to show for it simply shows that the Empire, as it is, is not able to hold itself together. (which, throughout most of history, was an assumed with any sort of embassy) You don´t say Yes, the Thalmor would have been around in an official function. But there's a difference between a diplomatic embassy operating in an area and covertly spying and them being able to arrest people in the streets. The Dominion couldn't turn those spies into tangible leverage without admitting they were spying, which meant their ability to crack down on Talos worship was impaired by the illicit means of garnering information. And yet they already did crack down on Talos worship, so either the local Jarls allowed and turned a blind eye to it (in some holds at least) or the Jarls were incapable of preventing illegal Thalmor hit squads to operate in their holds. Either way the local guards couldn´t have stopped the Thalmor as if they did they would have sheltered people who broke the White Gold Concordate and then they would have had the same situation as with Ulfric, only started by a commoner. Face it the Empire has shackled itself in its own fear, they cannot tell the Thalmor agents to mind their own business, and the Thalmor agents have no fear or hesitation to admit they are spying, resulting in them using their knowledge gained from spying very publically. We see them try to intervene in Ulfric's execution. No risk of the Cloaks winning at that point yet, so it only points at the Thalmor wanting to have the war continue and not them being more amiable to a cloak victory than an imperial one. No such effort is made ANYWHERE on behalf of the Empire, for any reason. The Empire has more resources and men, there hardly ever was any reason to help them. In the few last quests of the civil war the Thalmor did not interfere on either side. They even go so far as to try to undermine peace negotiations while there's a Dragon-God trying to end the world. How does that show them hoping for a cloak victory over an Imperial victory? There's also the issue of the weapons being smuggled through Blackmarsh. While the Argonians could be making them, they've never had an established history of manufacturing Elven goods, indicating they might be an intermediary. The Empire has more resources and men, they hardly need smuggled weapons, they can simply buy them from High Rock etc. The cloaks however needed the smuggled weapons. There is no evidence, anywhere, to say they are willing to do the same for Tullius, Rikke, Elesyf or any other Imperial supporter. There however is also no evidence that the Thalmor would help Uflric win, only that they would help him survive. Which fits perfectly with their stated intentions to prolong the civil war and have no clear winner. You however state that they would prefer a Cloak victory and actively work towards that goal, a theory wholly unsupported by the evidence we have. You don't think that having National-Enemy-#1 escape under their watch would politically hurt the Dominion's position? You think the AD cares about what the lesser races think of them? That's the sort of political foul-up that gets your party stripped of the authority for prisoner exchange, Yeah, the Legion is so authoritative with their prisoners, like with Thorald Greymane, where Tullius himself writes his own supporters to forget the guy, he cannot do anything for him because he is a Thalmor prisoner. The Empire has shown us no instance in the game where they actually stood up to the AD, not with Thorald, not with the peace negotiations, not with Ulfric in Markarth, not with their hunt of Talos worshippers across Skyrim. and gets people like Elenwyn fired. Elenwyn would get fired if she allows the war to end, not if she makes a good job at prolonging it. Well no, she would be the scapegoat. That's better than not HAVING control. There is no indication Dengeir is anything but simply paranoid, he too has control of his hold. Igmund also doesn´t have control of his hold, the younger Silver Blood brother is circumventing him as much as his older brother. Maven is a clear criminal, so according to your credo we should hand her control of the Rift to her because she has control enough to stuff her own pockets?! Korir is biased against mages but he too has control of his hold. Igrod however doesn´t have so much control, the player saves her from a vamp taking over the city and thus also quells the unrest of her people - it´s a truly wonderful control she has! Siddgeir is a little s***, but he MAY get better over time. So we should make our political decision based on unsupported optimism now? Quote: "So, you think it's reasonable to make a major military and political decision on optimism alone?" We know mental illness exists in Tamriel, and it's got an entire Deity dedicated to it's manifestation. I am well aware of old Sheo, nevertheless please bring me a single instance of an Alzheimer patient on Tamriel. Furthermore if Beth had wanted to portray Dengeir as mad, they would have done it as they did with Narfi, and the guy in Solitude. Yes you are right I don´t have someone with Alzheimer in my family, I do have several old people however and can tell you that they don´t need a mental illness to have their quirks like paranoia of fire not being doused etc, not trusting new people etc. That´s a quite normal degradation of the mind. You are correct that Dengeir won´t get better, but as he is now he isn´t a threat to the hold, its people nor incapable of governing. According to your opinion we would also have to replace Titus Mede as he seems in quite a bout of depression, he´s old too and won´t get any better. I srsly don´t want to make fun of, nor belittle, mental illnesses and my honest respect to those who live suffering because of it, but don´t you think it possible that you read things into the game that aren´t there because of your RL experiences? The Ebonheart Pact really isn't a good example here. It is because the Nord/Dunmer/Argonian enmity runs far deeper than the Nord/Redguard/Cyrodiil/Orc?(who fought with Wulfharth against the Dunmer!) enmity. The Ebonheart pact after all, while often cited because the Nords were part of it, had its counterpart in the Daggerfall Convenant. And either way those two alliances could at least hold their own against the AD from back then. But it gives guaranteed support, and means that in the event of wider conflict, you know your standing forces will fight alongside potential allies. There are more hurdles between the Stormcloaks and supporting the Empire than there are with Pro-Imperial Nords doing so. Doesn´t change that Skyrim would still be split which was the crux of your former argument, that the Nords under Elisif would support the Empire is clear without question, but you also argue that the in the case of a great alliance between the Nords and other factions against the AD, not all Nords would participate against the orders of Ulfric. Quote: Ulfric taking over doesn't instantly mend the bridges in Skyrim, So while Elisif guarantees some support, Ulfric could get the whole of Skyrim behind him. After all he is the High King that was elected by the Jarls and built up his support among the people. I´s not the pro empire people that would refuse helping the Empire, but Ulfric´s own lackeys. So what you are claiming is that Uflric has such little control over his own followers that he cannot explain to them why it´s a sensible thing to meet the Empire halfway for the future of Tamriel after he convinced them that he is the one that should lead? After all much of the Nord´s frustrations with the Empire is that they don´t feel respected, gaining independence and helping the Empire on their own terms gives them that self respect back. Either way, Ulfric could help the Empire with that half of Skyrim that had supported the Empire anyhow. But these problems are being dealt with ALONE. And that's the issue. I don´t exactly know what you mean with that ALONE, do you mean that Skyrim would have more trouble dealing with them after they succeeded from the Empire because they couldn´t draw on the resources and personal support from the Empire? If so I must question where that support was in the last 25 years, and even longer before that with the Dunmer. Neither of these problems is exactly new. Making MORE of them doesn't help. Too bad we don´t know if decisions are good or bad before they play out. The Empire, no matter who made those decisions, has a bit of a bad track record. Leaders who make lead their people with bad decisions are normally replaced with the hopes that something better will follow. That may or may not happen, but logic dictates that the Empire doesn´t suddenly become better. Imperial Legion =/= Roman Legion We had this discussion before and back then you didn´t have these concerns, and the book "The Great War" seems to disagree with you. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War Legate Justianus Quintius I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil The greatly outnumbered Imperial legions retreated across the Alik'r Desert in the now-famous March of Thirst. Fresh legions from Skyrim The Imperial Legions under General Decianus Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army (his main army surely was more than a single legion if the 8th guarded the rear) reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna In Hammerfell, General Decianus discharged from the Legions One army, with the legions from Hammerfell under General Decianus The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna Two legions had been effectively eradicated - a general leads the military in the province, we know from the description of the author that a legate commands the legion and not a general. As we have nine legates for nine holds in Skyrim this paints a clear picture, you may not believe it but please give me any other explanation of how the Imperial legion system works based on something ingame/lore. What we do not know is how large those legions are, they could be 6-5000 as they were in the roman prime, but in the years where the Roman Empire wasn´t doing so well they had smaller legions as well. And then we have the amount of people mentioned in Daggerfall content which make such numbers quite believable. Mede lacks sufficient political support which he gambled away with the White Gold Concordat But an argument that something can happen, despite no historical precedence for it and no justification for it's occurrence beyond wishful thinking, is a far better one. It has historical precedence, Daggerfall Convenant, Ebonheart Pact, Direnni-Nord Alliance against the Alessian Order, Cyrodiil slave rebels and Nords against Ayleid, the Nord supporting the Khajiit against the Bosmer etc After all we aren´t talking of all the provinces standing up to the Dominion but just the four human once. You cannot argue that this is on the same scale as a Tamriel wide alliance, it´s humans vs elves and that happened before and will happen again. If Hoag Merkiller can argue the chieftains of Skyrim into going to High Rock to fight against the Alessians together with the High Elves than Ulfric can argue the Nords into fighting besides humans against Altmer. He does them no favours by being dead, or in jail, so the only reasonable assumption is that they planned for him to 'escape' after they took custody. Nobody is arguing this, what we argue is that you believe that they for some reason or other would rather have the Cloaks win than the Imperials, which we have no indication of.

I won't trust the Silverbloods to run any Hold. Why not? That they are corrupt can´t bother you obviously if you have little problem with Maven or Siddgeir. The combination of Elisif and her court members is enough to rule Haafingar. No, the court members are enough to rule Haafingar. Elisif is superfluous. Ulfric even allows her to keep her position if the Stormcloaks take Solitude and she submits. A confusing political masterstroke (from that populist oaf!) apparently as it is called ingame, not because she is that good at managing the jarldom. No further discontent is evident after Movarth's secret uprising is resolved (assuming it was resolved before the Civil War ends in favor of the Stormcloaks) and very little is shown after that one-time rally. The people of Hjaalmarch seems stalwart enough to get on with their lives whoever rules them. Personally, I'd trust Iddgrod more than the other Jarl. No further discontent than the one scripted scene, and nearly every dialogue tree in the city. How many other instances can you cite where the citizen crowd together before the jarl´s house and express their anger? How many other cities can you cite which are nearly taken over by vamps? I doubt her 'visions' getting out of control is a permanent thing. She had those visions since forever and her family too, and the boy has the same problem of not knowing who people are or when in time he is. I can't trust either Siddgeir or Dengeir completely, but the steward is efficient enough and the rest of Falkreath are mostly good people. And Tekla is a worse steward because??? Otherwise you could support the cloaks in Falkreath too. Brina, she never said she's loyal to Skald; she's loyal to Dawnstar. Which just means she betrays her lord. Again you cannot walk around in the uniform of the rulers enemy and expect to get off scoff free. The warring factions are pretty much even until the PC decides which to join, showing that Ulfric isn't getting the default vote just because he's a Nord and 'Skyrim (supposedly) belongs to the Nords'. The cloaks´ support grows though, that´s why they can suddenly launch an attack on Whiterun. This just shows that at the beginning of the game the rebellion was still quite young and small. Also, the Thalmor are more concerned about an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak victory No indication for this thesis. Still, you'd think it wouldn't be so easy to send mercenaries back and forth Hammerfell and Skyrim if the AD troops/enforcers are that sufficient between the provinces. The Thalmor do not control the roads of Skyrim, nor Hammerfell. Nor can the Thalmor officially hunt down visitors to Skyrim. Just a thought. Kematu's group were supposedly there to capture someone who sold Taneth to the AD; why would they not care about these Alik'r? They're basically enemies. They don´t make any move to pick up Saadia either, who is supposedly an ally. Also Whiterun is kinda neutral, they even have Heimskr breaking the concordat. And no small thalmor patrol could defeat Kematu´s group. The AD has no standing army in Skyrim just some diplomats, justiciars and guards. Enough to hunt heretics but not enough to hunt down a mercenary group. I also still doubt that Hammerfell is that bitter towards the Empire to not consider rejoining them. Why would they rejoin after being thrown out and to the dogs of the AD? No independent state would just keel over and join an Empire without some serious pressure. They maintain a presence in Hammerfell. All they did was withdraw military occupation. Source for this? Legends? Either way it just means that Hammerfell is in a similar state as the Empire, in no way worse off. Different kinds of deserts. Hammerfell was called the Deathlands for a reason The Khajiit to my knowledge never even tried to live in Hammerfell. Nevertheless the AD forces, the Legion etc are all able to operate in Hammerfell and the Rourken weren´t the first inhabitants of Hammerfell: Nede and IMO even some Orcs live there too before the Redguards. So to say the Redguards had absolute home terrain advantage and no other faction could compare to them when fighting in Hammerfell is farfetched. In fact, we STILL don't really know how strong the Dominion remained after the Red Ring, and thus are largely unable to judge whether or not it would have been suicide on the part of the Empire. Indeed we do not know, the inverse could also very well hold true considering that High Rock hadn´t even been touched by war yet. while we were spying on you If the Thalmor would have been in Markarth incognito the bard would not have pointed them out so easily. The text makes it likely that they were there in a quite official function. The whole point however was that the Thalmor had agents in Skyrim even before the Markarth Incident. they are willing to go to much further lengths to prevent an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak one. How so? During the quests itself they never appear. They need to help Ulfric more than Tullius simply because the cloaks are the weaker faction not because they want them to win more than they want the Empire to win. willing to risk direct intervention to ensure the Empire doesn't win And just because they never stated they would do the same for Tullius doesn´t mean they wouldn´t. Dominion Ambassador herself tried to intervene to keep Ulfric alive. Yes, so? As you wrote it was disguised as a prisoner exchange. It´s not like they stormed Helgen spells blazing and shouted "run away Ulfric". The Thalmor risked nothing but bad rep when Ulfric "escaped". They threw away nothing at all. are more controllable, and slightly more competent. Controllable indeed. I´m sure you would want your state governors to be someone else´s paid monkeys. The Empire rules the western holds through money. Dengier was forced to step down because of concerns about his mental health Meaning he supported Ulfric instead of Elisif and the thanes wanted none of that. behaviour of the character is very indicative of the early stages of Alzheimer's Aye, sure. Remembering that that old gravestone over there belongs to some century old ancestor, telling you to kill him, and not trusting people closest to you (but still remembering their names) means someone has Alzheimer, in a world where we do not even know if Alzheimer exists. The others of the court don´t even say he had mental problems just that his health degenerated - that could mean everything!! from failing bowels to cancer. "But I was encouraged to step down when I took sides with the Stormcloaks." His mental illness probably manifested in exactly that moment, wasn´t a problem before or what? "For one thing, I won't empty Falkreath's coffers to buy myself fine clothes an' expensive mead. For another, I won't get mixed up with criminals and other sorts who take advantage of the honest folk for profit. I might be old, but I haven't forgotten that a Jarl's first duty is to look after his people." -a really terrible jarl that one. Ulfirc would literally be asking his people to help protect their enemies. Ebonheart Pact, again. Dunmer, Argonians, Nord had far older and deeper enmities than the Nords and Cyrodiil after the Civil War. Ulfric taking over doesn't instantly mend the bridges in Skyrim, And Elisif taking over half the country does?! And that's not touching on the Reachmen who were violently suppressed for trying to fight for THEIR freedom, the Dunmer who have balked under the 'generosity' of the Nords, or any Jarl, township or group that decides they'd be better off on their own. The only Dunmer who have a problem with how they live in Skyrim are those of Windhelm and those who became bandits. And not even all of those from Windhelm have a problem with how things are. The Forsworn problem is a moot point, nothing changes on that front no matter who rules Skyrim. "We told Ulfric that, if he killed some savages, maybe they'd give him his god back."? Yes, because the wording "contact was established" could mean absolutely everything. I´m not saying he isn´t being manipulated, nor saying that he wasn´t given the idea by the Thalmor (though no one can prove that with the info we have) but to say he was "prompted" is too much. Are you missing the part where Tullius infiltrated Stormcloak territory, ambushed Ulfric, captured him alive, and hauled him almost to the Cyrodiil border? The Civil War would have been all but ended had Alduin shown up 20 minutes late. And that is relevant to the question of how many troops Ulfric could field because??? As you well know the cloaks have troops all over the west as well. Skyrim is big land in the lore, no faction can patrol every nook and cranny. I never doubted the Empire had the better spies, not with Maven in their pocket. And even Wulfhearth obeyed the Greybeards in not using the Thu'um for his own glory. And the Ash King had great success with that, didn´t he? Furthermore Wulfharth used the thuum in battle without scruples. He even used it for damned Hjalti. First off, Tiber Septim was a lying jackass who manipulated just about everything to get his way. He lied about his origins, murdered his Emperor, killed both of the beings who hauled his ass to prominence, and forced an abortion on an 18 year old girl. He didn't give two tits about Traddition, all he cared about was power. So what? There is still no one ingame/lore who claims Hjalti violated Nordic tradition by opening that damned school! That he is an as***** has nothing to do with that. You're missing the part where the peoples of Tamriel have NEVER rallied together behind anyone but an Empire of Cyrodiil. There have been a few alliances here and there, but the Empires are the only ones who have ever managed to bring everyone together, even if only for short-term objectives Duh, naturally. The Empire after all didn´t have to parley, they could just order. Though neither the Reman nor Alessian Empire ever united all of Tamriel either. It takes a God Robot to do that. To say an Empire is necessary for ALL people to come together peacefully - is probably correct. But we don´t want all people to work together, just enough to defeat the AD. A single leader cannot overcome a raft of bad decisions Like the whole Mede line who can´t seem to keep their provinces from running away from them, let people invade their capital city, let the Blades agents get slaughtered, let foreign agents spy on them, rebuff a peace treaty without knowing the enemies strength, fight a costly war, then sell the trust their few remaining allies have for them and then are surprised when those allies let them fall ... Oh, wait you were talking about Ulfric. He has been in contact with the Dominion even AFTER the war ended. As was everyone who was at Elisif´s parties. Wait! The AD could destroy the Dragonborn´s fame too! Ulfric is a political liability to his own nation. As if military propaganda needs to be real to be believed by people. Stockholm syndrome What?!!! Perhaps he is also a sleeper agent out to kill all the jarls when they vote for him in the moot, or that the next Emperor was actually brainwashed by the AD into giving up his throne to them, or that Titus Mede was actually a AD sleeper agent all along and only started the war because he needed to bleed the Legions dry before being able to sign the concordat without his soldiers killing him - no those theory have all already been discredited because THERE`S NO BASIS!!! to have the Hero impersonate him in order to rally the troops So he didn´t even do it himself!? That craven! There were two good things about him and you just ruined one of them for me. Hell, they don't even have a proper Legion in Skyrim, but are recruiting and training locally. Srsly? This has been discussed to death between the two of us. They have 9 damned legions in Skyrim, 9 legates = 9 legions! The Legion = entirety of the x legions the Empire can field. Apart from the example of the roman legions we have no indication that the Empire doesn´t always train and recruit locally, in a nation where until recently the people where mostly supporters of the Empire it makes a lot of sense to have guards from the same ethnicity as the people they control. Trained locally? -the damned Battlespire is destroyed do you really think non officers would be shipped over to Cyrodiil for their training and then back again for their assignment?!! And even Ulfric admits it. He won't move against the Emperor, even though the old man's in Skyrim, because he knows that if the full might of the Empire came down on them, the Stormcloaks would be ended. Yes, the cloaks also didn´t have enough troops to lay siege to Whiterun until later in the game. When a nation prepares 25 years for a war one would think they have an impressive amount of battle capacity. the question is, if they have enough, would they use it? Well not under Titus Mede, he said so himself that he doesn´t want to wage another war himself. Which is, it's self, just more evidence that he is unfit for his position. No it´s not because how suited he is to the position has little to do with how prepared the Empire is for the AD nor if his means to make himself High King contradict his selling point. You yourself claim that he only wants the power, in the moments where you don´t think that he has stockholm syndrome, you can´t make him capable enough to fool the people yet too dumb for the position.

To be fair IMO it doesn´t even matter if it´s the Septim or Mede dynasty. Nor should it, if a ruler cannot show success, nor gain the support of the masses he is simply not qualified to rule. The adherence to a monarchic family name and to old institutions simply because "it was always like that" isn´t something to put on a pedestal and hail as virtue. We too did away with our monarchies, and the return to a moot elected High King of the Nords appeals to me more than blood rights. Even if that would lead to national instability - to say otherwise would mean that to discredit all our own revolutions. Something better may not always follow, but there´s a chance it does. IMO the "right decision" depends on whether the player believes that the Empire/independent nations can repel the AD or not. IMO both could do it, we simply do not know enough about the military matters of Tamriel to make truly informed guesses. To say that it would be impossible for the indepedent nations to win, would mean the Switzerlands would like a word with you.