[Seperation of Church and State.]

I do not mean any offense here, but if you intend to call me ignorant without a proper rebuttal, then I do not believe that particular name will apply to me. DM, I did not call you unethical or immoral. I stated that the US government has its basis in religious ethics. I also stated that everyone had a right to there own opinion. It is a historical fact that all societies have had some basis in religion. Would you not agree, Theta, that your non-religious ethical code has at least some foundation in some religion somewhere? Even the very laws of much of Europe derive some of their basic tenants from Christianity. You cannot, nor should you, deny that the societal foundations of your respective countries have a solid link to religion. The societies you now live in are in part a product of your religious heretige. Whether you choose to deny it or not is your own business, but I would suggest that no one be (here goes that word again) ignorant of where there past lies. You can argue, you scream, you can rant and rave, but the facts cannot be disproven. Everyone and every society has a tie to a religion. And ethical codes are a direct product of religion.

 

I will go ahead and counter argue the point you are about to make. Of course you can make your own ethical code. What will you make it from. Well, are you going to show hospitality to strangers? Most of your religions cover that one. How about not stealing? Yes. Or you don't want to commit murder. That's covered in several religious works. Religions are a guide to normal behavior. Even if you make up your own code you'll stay within accepted societal bounds. Unless you do not want to function in society. Then you are labelled abnormal. And packed off somewhere by the police or guys in white jackets.

 

Now, as a little project, since some of you are eager to take shots at either my intelligence or my point without much in the way of proof or rebuttal, then give me an example of a working government with no ties to any religious structure that is not a totalitarian state. I cannot think of any, but perhaps someone else can.

 

Also, it is not my intention to be insulting here. If I have offended anyone I am sorry, however, this is a debate forum. Be prepared to argue (nicely) your points and to have said points shredded by others. I have no doubt that this post will be scrutinized and criticized before I can turn around twice. Such is a debater's life...

[The Next President]

And I suppose if we had simply repealed the 22nd amendment to the constitution we could have endured the constant weasling, lying and womanizing of former President William Clinton for another four, eight, or even twelve more years. I do not feel that this is the place to debate anyone's merits as president or to throw about useless slander at political leaders. I believe the topic was: Who will be the next President of the United States?

 

In all likelihood (even though I like none of the candidates which have been presented to me by any party) it will probably be George Bush. My own party (Democrats) don't have a clear leader and probably will not for at least another eight or ten years. So, barring some unfortunate circumstance, I see no end to the Bush administration.

[Seperation of Church and State.]

The concept of seperation of church and state taken to its extremis would be a literal removal of the human element. Humanity must believe in something greater than itself. The government is not the foundation of American society. It never has been and never will be. I have seen it written here that it is an unfortunate bias of the Founding Fathers that the foundation of US Constitution is Christianity. This is not so. A pure governmental structure would contain neither ethics nor morality. A pure government would have no ethical base upon which to operate. What kind of societal structure would be implemented without any form of ethics, any respect for traditions or any goals higher than service to government? Such an abomination would be a living nightmare of absolute efficiency and enforced compliance. I referenced the Terminator movies in the above quote, but perhaps the more appropriate reference would have been to George Orwell's 1984. This is an example of pure governement in action and it is totalitarian. Big Brother is watching you.

 

It is the blending of Christian beliefs and values with the Republican model which has brought the freedoms and liberties so many exercise today. It may be called unfortunate, a mistake or an anchronism, but it is a far kinder and gentler system than most others around the world. In this nation we have the right to express our views, no matter how different they are from others. Yes, I believe strongly in tradition. Yes, I believe strongly in this nations heretige. These things helped make our nation great. I do not believe that someone has the right to dictate my beliefs to me, but isn't that what so many others do to Christians who stand up for their beliefs? The door must swing both ways. There must be, if neither respect nor agreement, at least an understanding that an individual has a right to believe as he or she will. And the government has no business being involved in any of it. Far too many times in this nation the courts have created tort laws to enforce the view of a very few upon the whole. I would cite examples, but there are far to many seen everyday in the paper.

 

At the moment, so long as all views are respected, there should be no need to change any part of our government. If so called religious fanatics offend you, then by all means do not listen. If so called liberals were to offend, do not listen. If any one offends by the exercise of their freedoms then do remember this: Everyone has a right to their own beliefs and the right to express them in a civilized manner. Even hate groups such as the KKK and the Black Panthers. Even you who utilize these forums. Always remember to respect those around you. Always remember where this nation came from, even if you do not agree with it. Others have the right to believe it is the best system in the world and that their Christian heritage helped make America great.

[The Debates Forum]

Ahhh, a place I can call home.

[Seperation of Church and State.]

I believe we are missing the point. I intend no disrespect, but it was never the Founding Fathers belief that the State be estranged from the church (based on their own writings). They understood that government is made up of people and people need religion or some form of ethical belief to function as a society. Their main concern was that the State would not control the church as it was in so many nations when this country was founded. They were also careful that no organized religious body would wield the power the Roman Catholic Church did during the middle ages. The concept of absolute seperation of church and State is ludicrous in that to fully follow that path one must remove the human element. Terminator anyone?

 

It must be remebered that at the time, Christianity was a valued element of society. Many of the Founding Fathers were Christian. Many were not, yet they still honored the belief system of their fore-fathers. The USA was founded almost entirely on Christian morality. It would be foolish (no insults intended here) to disregard our heritage or attempt to remove symbols, phrases or representations of our religious affiliations because of an overly strict interpretation. I ask all of you to read carefully the letters and journals of those who architected the US constitution and tell me what else you can conclude.

[ABUSE of the forum shop]

You and me both, pal.