ASCLEPUS

I do not mean any offense here, but if you intend to call me ignorant without a proper rebuttal, then I do not believe that particular name will apply to me. DM, I did not call you unethical or immoral. I stated that the US government has its basis in religious ethics. I also stated that everyone had a right to there own opinion. It is a historical fact that all societies have had some basis in religion. Would you not agree, Theta, that your non-religious ethical code has at least some foundation in some religion somewhere? Even the very laws of much of Europe derive some of their basic tenants from Christianity. You cannot, nor should you, deny that the societal foundations of your respective countries have a solid link to religion. The societies you now live in are in part a product of your religious heretige. Whether you choose to deny it or not is your own business, but I would suggest that no one be (here goes that word again) ignorant of where there past lies. You can argue, you scream, you can rant and rave, but the facts cannot be disproven. Everyone and every society has a tie to a religion. And ethical codes are a direct product of religion. I will go ahead and counter argue the point you are about to make. Of course you can make your own ethical code. What will you make it from. Well, are you going to show hospitality to strangers? Most of your religions cover that one. How about not stealing? Yes. Or you don't want to commit murder. That's covered in several religious works. Religions are a guide to normal behavior. Even if you make up your own code you'll stay within accepted societal bounds. Unless you do not want to function in society. Then you are labelled abnormal. And packed off somewhere by the police or guys in white jackets. Now, as a little project, since some of you are eager to take shots at either my intelligence or my point without much in the way of proof or rebuttal, then give me an example of a working government with no ties to any religious structure that is not a totalitarian state. I cannot think of any, but perhaps someone else can. Also, it is not my intention to be insulting here. If I have offended anyone I am sorry, however, this is a debate forum. Be prepared to argue (nicely) your points and to have said points shredded by others. I have no doubt that this post will be scrutinized and criticized before I can turn around twice. Such is a debater's life...

And I suppose if we had simply repealed the 22nd amendment to the constitution we could have endured the constant weasling, lying and womanizing of former President William Clinton for another four, eight, or even twelve more years. I do not feel that this is the place to debate anyone's merits as president or to throw about useless slander at political leaders. I believe the topic was: Who will be the next President of the United States? In all likelihood (even though I like none of the candidates which have been presented to me by any party) it will probably be George Bush. My own party (Democrats) don't have a clear leader and probably will not for at least another eight or ten years. So, barring some unfortunate circumstance, I see no end to the Bush administration.

Ahhh, a place I can call home.

I believe we are missing the point. I intend no disrespect, but it was never the Founding Fathers belief that the State be estranged from the church (based on their own writings). They understood that government is made up of people and people need religion or some form of ethical belief to function as a society. Their main concern was that the State would not control the church as it was in so many nations when this country was founded. They were also careful that no organized religious body would wield the power the Roman Catholic Church did during the middle ages. The concept of absolute seperation of church and State is ludicrous in that to fully follow that path one must remove the human element. Terminator anyone? It must be remebered that at the time, Christianity was a valued element of society. Many of the Founding Fathers were Christian. Many were not, yet they still honored the belief system of their fore-fathers. The USA was founded almost entirely on Christian morality. It would be foolish (no insults intended here) to disregard our heritage or attempt to remove symbols, phrases or representations of our religious affiliations because of an overly strict interpretation. I ask all of you to read carefully the letters and journals of those who architected the US constitution and tell me what else you can conclude.

You and me both, pal.