imperistan

I can't even respond to your post. You just sit there and skirt around the issue rather than actually arguing. Like I said, prove me wrong. Don't sit there and pull up a bunch of irrelevant crap, trying to argue how I should be arguing. If you think you're in the right, then argue. Don't sit there and try to undermine because you can't face the argument directly. And I'm not even getting into you're blatant ignorance of what a ghetto is and ignoring of facts straight out of the game. Still don't get it. I really don't want to have to beat it into you with a rock. I really, really don't. That law only applies when no real, legitimate, and relevant comparison can be made with the Nazi's, like comparing Ulfric with Hitler. Not when the Thalmor ARE a clear and obvious parallel to how the Nazi's operated.

Its almost as if you have to take a rock, paint the point on it (With a splash of thinking), and beat it into them. :wallbash:

The Trial by combat is meant to depose the High King and his family. As I've said elsewhere, you don't duel a High King for his throne just so his wife or his sons or whoever else in the line of ascension can take it. There is no point in it and these duels NEVER would have been created to serve that purpose. If that purpose needs to be had, a simple and clear assassination is in order. Not a trial by combat. I don't see where the High King's death = The High Queen has a claim to his throne. And no, by tradition the Jarl of Solitude doesn't just become High King. Nor does the Jarl of Windhelm. That is a concept created by the Empire installing puppet kings. ITP: There isn't an impending Moot and much of the Civil War questlines aren't devoted to building up your chosen claimants claim to the throne. What are you, 7 or something?

If he didn't, he wouldn't have made his point. Do I need to explain this again? Lets just pretend Tiber Septim didn't conquer Tamriel for any reason other than his own ambition. And you miss the entire point of these duels. You don't duel a High King for his position just so his wife can take it. There's zero point in it. I'm done responding to you. I'm going to have to start insulting you if I respond further. Read what I said again and comprehend what I said. Facepalm. They executed Rogvir for holding a gate open. What do you think is going to happen to Ulfric? You clearly aren't even trying to think about what you're saying. Ulfric also had no route of escape. Not to mention that he only surrendered to spare his men a pointless death. Being executed (note that Ulfric at the time would have presumed he and his men were going to be carted to Cyrodiil) at least would have cemented them as martyrs. Dying in a random ambush, not so much. Its not about Ulfric. He's a red herring. Skyrim's independence is going to destabilize the Empire and eventually collapse it. This is going to lead to the Dominion moving to pick up the pieces, and its there that whats left of mankind will have to decide whether they'll stand together and attack or fall separated as they sit and wait. Thats the moment I'm fighting for, the final decisive push that will decide whether the Dominion will be stood up against, or left to continue their silent undermining and eventual straightforward genocide. It can go bad, and perhaps the Dominion will overrun Tamriel (though even then they'll still have a hell of a hard time doing it, and it will still be a bloody conflict for both sides). But it could also go as I hope, and we'll see the Dominion fall under the combined forces of man. With the Empire, this hope will never see the light of day. Bad blood and old conflicts of the Empire's causing will maintain mankind's non-unity. Failing, corrupted leadership will impede. You overestimate Ulfric's voice, as well as his men's true loyalties. Those from Windhelm yes, they will support him no matter what, and so will many others. But not everyone in Skyrim fights for him nor even the Empire. They fight for their homes, their families. Ulfric may be charismatic, but that only goes so far until its only a unifying cry to fight, and no longer a purpose to fight for as you move further from Eastmarch. Its the fact that the war hasn't yet happened that the Civil War must happen. And besides that, with the Dragonborn's involvement, one side of the war does make for a clean victory. Its also good to note that war with the Dominion is only on the horizon based on knowledge we the players have. Most everyone else does not realize what we do, because most everyone else does not have the access to the information that we have. (as well as the general education to decipher how it all fits together). As far as Ulfric would have been able to guess, the war with the Dominion was still a long ways off if it was ever going to occur before the Dominion up and started it when they were at the full strength to do so. There's no sense even bothering if you're going to ignore the reality of what the people of Solitude (and in other cities) were going to actually know, see, and hear. And here I started to believe Mac when he said I had patience.

You don't understand the point of revolutions do you?

No? So you think that that staying in Solitude and being executed, without any chance to get on a soap box (and let the world know uninterrupted and not corrupted what his intentions were) and with little chance of convincing anyone in Solitude proper regardless, is going to turn out better than what Ulfric did in saving his own life while at the same time allowing his intentions to reach the rest of the world without being muddied by Imperial propaganda straight from the get-go? Are you dense or are you just not thinking very hard about what you're saying? And I'd agree, if Skyrim's independence didn't have greater implications beyond the inevitably short reign that Ulfric may gain. As I said, I don't fight for Ulfric. I fight for what Skyrim's independence is going to lead to. Personally, I think following a Stormcloak victory that Ulfric will reign as High King for a while and that eventually either he'll get killed and/or deposed by the Jarls. After that we'll either see A, Skyrim tearing itself apart again (which I doubt) or a true and full return to how Skyrim used to be run, with the Jarl's meeting to select their High King. But that isn't going to matter unless you think some internal strife some 20-30 years down the line means anything to the war to save mankind that will happen well before that. There's a massive difference between being afraid of retribution, and wanting insure that your point can actually be made. This is what you need to get through your head. Solitude isn't a bastion of fairness and goodwill, Ulfric was going be dragged through the mud all the way to the chopping block, period. His point was not going to be made to anyone. Just THINK for a second. What do you think the people of Solitude are going to believe? That this bound and gagged man, who they will have been told just killed their High-King in cold blood for nothing more than personal gain, actually has intentions beyond personal gain? Or that this bound and gagged man is a traitor who killed his king in a vain attempt to steal away his throne? Do you seriously think anyone in Solitude is going know that a duel took place beyond perhaps the muddied rumors that'll be drowned out by the emotional upheaval that propaganda ultimately would have (and did) cause? Do you honestly believe that Ulfric would be allowed to make his case? To even speak again after he's arrested? You'd be surprised what a man's last words can do in the minds of others. Those in Helgen might have been Imperial supporters, but if Ulfrics last words were heard, eventually they would reach the rest of Skyrim. And besides that I was making the point of what would happen to Ulfric had he stayed in Solitude. Even without the Thu'um he would not have been allowed to speak. Except we can. If we can't, then you must admit that the duel was not dishonorable. By the time Windhelm is getting read to be besieged, Ulfric has already lost. And his mind (and in the minds of virtually every other Nord warrior) dying in battle will be better than running away to live for slightly longer. See this song for the sentiment: They might not have handed him over with a nice bow, but its the Empire's duty to defend its citizens. They didn't do that with Ulfric. Treaty be damned. That a government is willing to let many of its citizens die without any repercussions is just terrible, especially when we're dealing with an enemy force that the EMPIRE DEFEATED.

This isn't the Empire of Talos. That Empire died 200 years ago. The Empire has always been defined by the one who founded them, and with the Septim Empire specifically it has always been defined by how the Septims reigned. Mede and his ilk are not Septims. This is not the Septim Empire, its the Mede Empire. (and before its asserted, no, borders do not define an Empire. If so, then we should be referring to the Empire as the Allessian or Reman Empire. I'm fighting for neither. We can't restore the Septim Empire and the Mede Empire will never be able to recover. Skyrims independence is just a red herring to what the Stormcloak cause is really going to end up winning for Tamriel. I don't fight for the Stormcloaks because of Ulfric. I think hes a bloody idiot and personally I wish I could take his place. I fight because Skyrim's independence will inevitably lead to something new for Tamriel. Something that may be could be created in the name of Talos or perhaps just in the spirit of uniting Tamriel once again. And this isn't going into how mankind also has far, far greater chances of being spared genocide for it as well.

Please show me the acres of land within the city walls that are just sitting there, unused, ready for houses to be built, untouched only because the Dunmer can't touch it. OH WAIT! There isn't any! Zomg. Please take a look at all the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter and show me where they can go live in the rest of the city. Go ahead, show me some maps of where you seem to think all this available space for them is. Here's a massive hint: Everyone in Tamriel is racist. You're accusing racists of being racist against racists. You can't judge whats right in this universe by whats right in ours. They are not the same and in a general time line of social developmen Tamriel is still A THOUSAND YEARS behind our own world, and thats if in a thousand years anything actually changes. And I'm not getting into it again how the Grey Quarter is not a part of Windhelm. You're the one accusing Ulfric. Its your burden to prove it. All I see in the game is a bunch of lazy Dunmer whining that they aren't having their asses wiped by Ulfric personally. I can prove that by citing the acres of farmland in Skyrim not being used by any of these Dunmer and the fact that after 200 years the Dunmer have done little if anything to fix their own plight. Black people in the US didn't just sit around and wait for whites to give them everything. They worked their asses off to make life better for themselves. It doesn't take 200 years to have a population like what we see in the Grey Quarter (presuming that the current population is indicative of the general population that has existed over the years) to get back to a state similar to what it was before they became refugees. Please show me how the WIndhelm guards are barricading the Grey Quarter and not letting any Dunmer leave. Show me, how the Dunmer are just STRUGGLING to get out and go make a living (PS, the city isn't the only place you can do this and honestly, it isn't the best place to do it if you're not a merchant, and not everyone can be a merchant) but no one is letting them leave the city nor their apparent "ghetto". To quote a Dunmer himself: A link, if you feel like just calling that all "fan-fic" in your usual cop-out: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu It'd be nice if you'd stop being a hypocrite for once and actually support your assertions with facts, not emotionally charged BS that you like to spew just because you got caught up in the emotionally charged whining of the Dunmer. Ahem: Also, nice that you quote the only two Dunmer in the Grey Quarter that are holding down substantial jobs. Those peoples situations were also vastly different from the Dunmer. You can't use examples like that when they aren't even related to what you're talking about. He says this, yet continually refuses to back up his assertions when the burden of proof is on him. So are you going to get over yourself (and off your high horse) and actually disprove anything or are you just going to sit there and skirt around the issue. If you want to win against me in this argument, destroy my points with facts that I cannot dispute. Assert your claims with indisputable evidence. You have yet do this and are continually skirting the issue just so you can sit there and preach against racism. We get it, racism is bad. Come back when thats relevant to the universe were arguing about, and feel free to get off your soap box any time. Yet again, you skirt around the issue. Stop being such a wart and dispute it. Don't preach, DEBATE. Tell me what there is wrong with that source. Let me bold some things for you: Congrats, you explained why one man wants to stay in Windhelm. I asked for why the entire populace insists on it. :wallbash: You quote history yet you don't even know why the Warsaw Ghetto was the way it was. It should be blatantly obvious to anyone who isn't just clearly looking crap up on the internet as he goes. The Warsaw Ghetto was the way it was because the Germans weren't going to give the Jews anything real there. They never intended to. The administration of the Ghetto was just a puppet for the Nazis. This isn't the case with the Grey Quarter. And I'm not going to even get into how the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto weren't ******* refugees fleeing a natural disaster and being given free reign to find a place to live in Poland. They were victims of a hostile invading force that forced them from their homes and herded them into the ghetto like rats. And he misses the point. Shwing and a miss. You're too funny.

Few people who started wars in our own world ever did give their enemies any sort of trial before they either killed them or exiled them. Those that came in defense and/or were defending against an invading (or rebelling for that matter) force may have, but those that started these kinds of wars? Never. AT least not as far as I know at any rate. Either way, these occasions if they ever occurred were very seldom, and no where near the norm to the point that it should be expected. Or, he would have been executed and whatever point he would have made would have been thrown in the mud by it. Lets remember that the propaganda machine against Ulfric is strong as it is. If he died in Solitude before he could truly announce his actions to the world (Without the interference of Solitude mind you, which he wasn't going to be able to do if he stayed there) then whatever his men back in Windhelm knew of his intentions are again, just going to end up having their arguments sown in doubt as people find that the only even possibly substantial source of information is only going to come out of Solitude, and Solitude is going to be telling everyone that Ulfric was a thug who slew the High King in cold blood. So its the word of Solitude (the seat of the High King as well as the Imperial presence in Skyrim) versus a raving bunch of brutes (lets face it, Ulfric's the only one in the Stormcloak army thats really charismatic, besides may be Ralof) in Windhelm. Most are going to go with Solitude when they won't have any real evidence (remember that virtually everyone in Skyrim is going to know what they know and side how they side based on what they hear down at the pub. There's no impartional national news service for people to rely on. Just word of mouth, and the word of mouth is not going to be in favor of Ulfric in the vast majority of the cities an[d villages) saying that what Ulfric did may have been truly righteous and for a greater cause. If Rogvirs assertions before he was beheaded couldn't turn anyone, Ulfric staying wasn't. That everyone in Solitude was STILL against Ulfric after the fact (when the point that Ulfric supposedly would have made if he had stayed) shows that they weren't going to hear any of it if he hadn't left. His leaving may have had some effect, but the fact that the point was still trying to be made regardless would have turned at least some to Ulfrics side even despite his leaving. But no one is turned to his side, which shows they weren't going to hear it. Do you honestly believe Ulfric was going to be allowed on a soap box? He was GAGGED by the Imperials the entire time when they were taking him to be executed, and it wasn't just because of the Thu'um. He was going to die with that gag in his mouth and no one in Solitude nor Tullius' entourage in their right mind was going to let Ulfric go un-gagged for the entire time they had him in custody. Martyrs are that much more effective when you actually allow them to say something to the witnesses of their execution. Thing is though is that Tullius must walk a fine line where Whiterun is concerned. Its the most strategically important city in Skyrim. Tullius can't risk that city being turned over to the Stormcloaks (note that the actual battle where the Dragonborn is on the Stormcloak side is a different matter. At that point in the war the fine line has already been walked) so he must play the politics game with Balgruff, or risk losing the most direct route in Stormcloak territory as well as the economic center in Skyrim. Whiterun isn't an Imperial held city. Remember that Skyrim is in a state of Civil War. There are jurisdictions and Whiterun is the one hold in Skyrim where neither side of the war has actual jurisdiction. The Empire couldn't assert anything on Whiterun if it wanted to, not without either A, walking that line, or B, forcibly taking the city. The Empire also isn't into silencing political dissidents nor asserting the WGC except where they're forced to. Whiterun isn't one of those cases. The Thalmor are not as present in Skyrim as of yet (so its unlikely that anything will come of the Talos statue anytime soon, if at all) as they are in Cyrodiil and as was said, Whiterun isn't yet under the Empires real jurisdiction. Feel free to show a source that explains how Ulfrics challenge to the High-King's rule (lets remember that this society is still largely of the men > women line of thinking) is overruled just because the High King happened to have a wife. Unless you're suggesting that Ulfric challenge her to a duel too. If so, that's just cute! No he doesn't. He's using it the same manner it was always originally used (as a weapon, because thats what it is, sorry to break it to you Windcaller you arrogant bastard) in before it became the irrelevant power of irrelevant monks sitting up on a mountain. The Greybeards might as well give up the thu'um. They literally have zero reason to use it and they can worship the gods all the same without it. And there is no honor in leaving your country to waste away because you are too weak to rule it. The war against the Forsworn wasn't over religion. He spared his men dying in a pointless fight. He was intending on all of them to die as martyrs. George Washington also lived during a time when war was "gentlemanly", which is a point that Tamriel is still quite a couple centuries (if not millenia) from. Any point in history before that general period of warfare, and Cornwallis likely would have been killed. And they'll be happy to do it. If they don't like what Ulfric is doing, they can depose him. In this post: There was apparently a Moot before all this occurred, and big doesn't understand the point of the challenge. Back when these duels were the general way of things, Ulfric likely would have ascended by now, if not in name but at least in the bulk of the actual power behind the throne. Neither of the armies leaders fight in any of the battles until the final battle. And honestly I'm one to agree with Rikke on his motivations in not bothering. Yes. Talos worship is still banned, Ulfric has not been given the rights he gained in honorably sanctioned combat (Torygg agreed to the fight. Unless you can prove otherwise, we can only assume that they agreed that everything was fair game), and I'm not getting into how Tullius takes every moment in his talks with Rikke to spew crap about Nordic traditions. I hope I don't have to go dig up one my countless posts that explains how even if the Empire wins the civil war they're still doomed to fail. The assertions of a general trying to inspire his men don't negate the actual state of the Empire's military might and actual chances against the Dominion whenever they actually decide to fight against them. (if they ever even take the initiative) ;D

Why did he have to? And by staying he would have undermined his entire revolution, if it ever got off the ground afterwords. Like I said, whatever arguments Ulfric's men could put up would be muddied in doubt by everyone else in Skyrim, including many in Windhelm. Very stupid. Legality doesn't mean much to revolutions. Revolutions are meant to change the nature of legality in a way that adhering to that legality can't. This is why Solitude now supports Ulfric. Derp.

If the Dunmer raised their own guard, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if conflicts arose. Though personally I think if the Dunmer gained the drive to do that then getting out of Windhelm would be the next step for them regardless of what conflicts may rise in the mean time. Other people have equal right to live in the rest of the city too you know. Again, the Grey Quarter was set aside specifically for the Dunmer to live in. The rest of the city was (and is) reserved for original Windhelm citizens (and in the sort of society that exists in Tamriel, original citizens take some precedence over refugees). The Dunmer are not true citizens of Windhelm and never were. It doesn't not indicate it either. Quote me some undeniable proof that Ulfric is directly saying "No, we won't help you because we don't like you", and I'll concede. Until then, my point stands. Can't get over the Dunmer can you? I'm not even going into how its terribly obvious that you're using the Dunmer as a red herring, but the Dunmer are irrelevant to the actual Stormcloak cause. They have all the power to fix their situation, period. That they don't is their own faults. Not the Stormcloaks. It doesn't matter if there really is discrimination (No, there isn't) because no one is forcing them to live there. And unless you're going to try and pull this crap that Ulfric should be a social revolutionary (when even the notion of such thing won't even be invented in his world for another thousand years, if not even longer) then you can't say they can't fix their own situation. They can either leave and make their own lives, or they can get off their asses and fix their problems. After 200 years, it isn't the Jarl's responsibility to help the Dunmer along. IF this was just following the Red Year, then yes, the Jarl would have an obligation to help the Dunmer refugees set up in the Grey Quarter. But this is 200 years after the fact. The Jarls of Windhelm have already given all the assistance they were ever obligated to give them. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument But why should I even bother to quote my source yet again when you're just going to ignore it like you did before? Theres little point in showing you evidence when you're just going to sit there and look the other way for no other seeming reason than because it doesn't taste good when you read it. That is straight out of the game. If you deny it yet again then you're a hypocrite. The Grey Quarter isn't a real part of Windhelm. There's also the fact that theres acres of farmable land just waiting to be taken within Eastmarch and other parts of Skyrim. Windhelm isn't the only place the Dunmer have. It isn't a choice between Windhelm or staving out on Vvardenfel. You also have to wonder why apparently the Dunmer want to stay where they are. I can't imagine why anyone of them would want to stay in Windhelm, regardless of what "discrimination" you say is going on. Explain to me why the Dunmer want to stay in Windhelm and may be I'll concede that they could be deserving of a little more help. Every governing body that has ever existed has had the right to govern those who insert themselves within their borders. This is why you can't go to France, murder a bunch of a people, and then come back to the US and expect to get off scott free. If the Dunmer want those two drunken beggars gone, they can raise a guard, evict the two men, and they will be in the right. None of it has to be violent. Lets remember that these two aren't exactly Nordic Warlords, its not like they'd actually be much trouble to evict from the area. Are you being intentionally dense or are you really just that forgone?? Clearly a book out straight out of the game is just made up canon. A site that takes the vast majority of its information straight from the Creation Kit is obviously just all made up fan-fic. Try harder. In other words: I didn't read the topic.

You're right. What you said was completely different from the situation at hand. So objective, I'm jealous. Yes of course! All revolutions always started at the heels of miles of red tape and months of waiting periods for all the paperwork to go through! Of course it all makes sense! Ulfric just never went through the proper channels! DUHH!! :wallbash: George Washington was a terrorist, according to this logic. You should check to see what terms you're using are relative before you assert them as the correct word. Clearly Ulfric knows time travel. He went forward in time to the end of the Civil War, killed Tullius then went back in time to get captured by Tullius. IT all makes sense! :psyduck: Name me one revolutionary who killed a head of state and managed to do anything important after that by staying by the mans body, patiently waiting to be arrested. And its hard to die a martyr when most won't have even known what you tried to do and when those that do know and actually support you would end up having their arguments muddied by doubt as people try to figure out if Ulfric actually did die a martyr or if this guy Galmar just killed him and took his place. Clearly, the Empire is the only good thing that ever existed in Tamriel and nothing could ever replace it that would be just as good if not better. NIce that you're afraid of change so much that you're willing to support a failing Empire that's just one silent coup away from being the puppet of an Elven Nazi regime. Derp. The exchange after your post there was just hilarious. It was like two kids going at each other with "STOP TOUCHING MEEE!!!!!!!!" logic.

Except no one is being squeezed into a "ghetto". The quarter is land within the city walls set aside for the original Dunmer refugees, to be self-governed with no obligation to any Jarl in Skyrim. There is literally no room in the city for the Dunmer other than what was already set aside for them. The fact that the Dunmer don't have to do anything and still retain their rights and control over the quarter is justification enough for Ulfric not to bother doing much for them. The Grey Quarter was originally a refugee camp, and in many ways still is. It isn't Ulfric's obligation to turn it into the Elven Garden, and especially not so when it generally doesn't even fall under his jurisdiction. Ulfrics only real, substantial charge and obligation to the Grey Quarter is its defense from hostile invaders. Nothing else. (And before you say it, no, a couple of drunken, racist beggars do not count as foreign invaders) Its funny that you're assuming this has any relevance and that you're also missing the point pretty hard. The Neimoller quote makes the point I was making: that ignoring persecution just because it doesn't affect you personally is going to be your ruin. The Thalmor want to eventually reverse mankinds ascension into importance (and probably just reverse mankind period) and the elimination of the worship of Talos (Talos essentially being the patron god of Mankind, mind you) is the first step in that plan. And besides that, you completely miss the point of the analogy with the Nazi's. We compare the Thalmor with the Nazi's because they are essentially the same sort of entities. The Nazi's killed because of race, the Thalmor because of religion. Its two vastly similar entities doing largely the same things but for different though very, very similar reasons. The Jews =/= Dunmer, and what power was given to the Jews is the exact opposite of what was given to the Dunmer. See above for the differences. And again, no one is forced to live there. Which again proves the Dunmer's own laziness. The Dunmer are naturally some of the more capable people on Tamriel. They could easily raise their own guard if they took the iniative. But if they took the initiative, rather than sit around and whine when they're fortunate to even have a place to live (that they don't have to do anything to have mind you), then they wouldn't need to raise their own guard because Ulfric won't spare any, but because their new city needs a garrison. Nice, throwing around insults when I've insulted no one. As I predicted, you denounce the source yet don't explain why its illegitimate. Ulfric says the duel was legimate. Elisif says it wasn't. Some say Ulfric's a loon, some a hero among men. Some say the Dunmer are just lazy, others persecuted. Some say the Imperials are good, some say they're bad. What, precisely, disproves what? Sorry to break it to you, but he-said, she-said doesn't work as evidence. Or it just proves that you're missing the entire point of this topic and don't want to actually debate (HINT: Debates aren't short and simple). And I'm not getting into how I"ve already supported much of what I've said. Sorry if I don't write out a bibliography with every post but this topic has been going on for 50+ pages. If you want my sources, read through the topic. I"m not listing them every time someone new hops into the topic for a couple pages, probably without even reading the rest of the topic.

So you're saying that it would have been smart for Ulfric to stay when he knew and we all knew that he would have been executed (probably on the spot) for what he did? Again, no one in Solitude was going to honor the legitimacy the duel. Few in Solitude care about tradition in the way that those of the Stormcloak line of thinking would. And even if more did, Elisif still would have had him executed. To criticize Ulfric for not being stupid enough to stick around in a city that was going to be gearing up to kill him (regardless of the legitimacy of what he did) is like criticizing France for not standing up to Germany in a direct fight.

Ulfric fled because no one in Solitude was going to honor the legitimacy of the duel, not because it wasn't legitimate.

Wow, this thread. More attacking each other than attacking the actual issues. Literally debating the terms of the debate. Perhaps, but this forgets the entire point of the duel, and regardless the High King was going to be deposed in one way or another. He was no general and politically he relies heavily on the Empire for his position so if he can't hold it militarily eventually its going to be taken from him, either by Ulfric or someone else. Fact of the matter is, the High King was going to lose his throne if the Empire was rebelled against. Ulfric doing what he did during the duel only asserts his claim to that vacant throne. Sorry, but Tamriel doesn't work like that. Its actually more accurate to look at the situation in Tamriel as the European crusaders coming to the Middle East, except the actual reasons for the wars are swapped. Instead of a land grab veiled in religious zeal, its religious zeal veiled in a land grab. The nations of Tamriel and the cities within them all have their own methods and practices of policing within their borders. The Legion isn't and never was the sole defensive force within the Empire, as it served more as peacekeeping between provinces and as the Emperor's personal army than the city guard for every city in the Empire. The Redguards won't join the entity that originally abandoned them to be completely destroyed. Khajiit have never and in all liklihood never will actually fight for the Dominion. Everything else you said was your own invention. To quote one Martin Niemöller: They can worship their own gods. The problem was all in who occupied what land. Religion had nothing to do with it. lol All that says is that there are two drunken racist beggars who roam the streets at night being racist. In a feudal society, these men aren't actually doing anything worthy of the guards nor the Jarl's time. They aren't attacking anyone physically and they aren't doing any property damage. Also, I think I should point out that the Dunmer are self-governed in their "slum". If those beggars are a problem, they have every right to deal with them on their own. Source: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument So again, the Dunmer make their own slum. That Decree alone proves it, and unless you have an objective reason for denying the legitimacy of that Decree (and I know you won't), you must accept this and concede defeat on this matter. inb4denouncesourcebecauseitclearlydisprovesthatthedunmeractuallyhaveaproblemotherthantheirownlaziness. Not if you take it at face value it isn't. If you're going to use gossip and what not as a source, you need to get rid of all the bias within it. Otherwise your source is worthless. With bias gone, you can at least derive some sort of truth from it. Problem is is that Occam's Razor doesn't apply. Nothing about these issues are simple, and especially not to the point where any one explanation (note that by explantions I mean explanations that are actaully thought out, fully encompassing (as in going from when this all started straight to where we are now) and well supported. Not one-off pseudo-arguments that aren't explained at all nor supported other than through the emotional weight of the sentences) can really be said to be more simpler (without going into a severe issue of semantics that is) than another. And Torygg is a vassal of the Emperor. There is a very clear chain of command and in this case its the actions of that entire chain, not just part of it, that were wrong. Regardless of Torygg's actual amount of involvement, he was still responsible for what happened, just as everyone else who could have put a stop to it (as what happened was wrong) is responsible for it.

That would be true if people still cared about the Thu'um, or cared if a king/ruler could use it, but they dont. The Thu'um is a relic from an age long since past, most people cant use it, have never seen it used, nor do they care if people can use it. Its not the general populace he's trying to make that point to. At least, not directly anyway. The proof is in the challenge itself. The challenge was meant to show who was the better High King. Using the Thu'um was Ulfric hammering in his case.

Hadvar is also one man. One good man in an organization of tyrants doesn't make the organization the pinnacle of good. They may have been childhood friends. That they come from the same village (and Hadvar calling Ralof a traitor carrying some emotional weight from my POV) seems to show that, so its likely that Hadvar spared an old friend having to die by his hand.

He used the Thu'um to make the point that he was a truer High-King than Torygg was. Not only was he a real warrior, but he was more in tune with his people's culture than Torygg, an Imperial puppet, was.

Thing is, there's a difference between a King taking on people to work the land and do other jobs, and giving incomes to people who apparently won't even work to better themselves. Tell me, which would you as an employer prefer: Someone who wants and is willing to work with their full efforts, or someone who won't even work hard enough to get themselves out of an apparent "ghetto" when they have all the ability to do so?

Its not about Skyrim. Its about mankind, and mankind is doomed to extinction if the Empire is allowed to act as it has been over the past 30 years any longer. The Civil War and Skyrims independence is just a red herring to the greater issue, but it also happens to be the only real launching point possible now for the solution to that greater problem. The time frame it showed up in doesn't negate the worth behind wisdom. Franklin's words apply regardless.

You're right that there aren't really any examples of it. But I was going off more of how the challenge is considered to be an ancient tradition going back to when Skyrim was still independent, and it was around that same time that the Thu'um was still regularly used by the Nords. The proof is right there. You don't have to be a master of the voice to utilize it in personal battles. Just look at Ulfric. It was his level of skill with the voice that many Nord warriors would have had. I should have said that it had begun to wane right at the same time of Windcallers apparent "epiphany". Windcallers philosophy ended the general spread of the Voice among Nords, and once all the independent tongues died out the Greybeards would have ended up being the only source for the teaching of the voice. Because it is regularly employed as a way of keeping it from being used by anyone for any other reason than to sit on a mountain top. Never have the Greybeards sallied out to help defend Skyrim, nor have they ever (so far as we know) taught anyone the voice so they could go on to defend the good in the world. Only the Dragonborn has receieved anything close to that, and even then you could tell that Arngeir didn't want to. He gets upset when you learn of Dragonrend (when he should have told you about it in the first place) and they clearly had no intentions of doing anything more than what they did. The combined voices of the Greybeards could easily help curb the Dragon invasion, if not put a fairly decent end to it once Alduin is dead, but the Greybeards do nothing. That is what makes the philosophy irrationally pacifistic. To quote Spider-man, with great power comes great responsibility. Standing by and doing nothing while people suffer, when you have the power to change that for the better, is not acting responsibly. Because Nords always exaggerate and honestly, I have great doubts that the Eight had anything to do with the Battle of Red Mountain. I believe that the combined Chimer/Dwemer army defeated them on their own merits. Divine intervention just doesn't fit with the actual reality of that battle for me. But we really don't know either way. We don't and can't know if there really was any divine intervention at Red Mountain, so we already have to be wary of claims otherwise that don't undeniably prove it (Windcallers word isn't proof), and because Nords tend to exaggerate a lot, particularly when they lose, we must either ignore that fact or recognize that it too also casts doubt on Windcallers motives at the time. (Note: That I insist that Windcaller was, in fact, just saving face, is more out of my contempt for him than any purely logical conclusion. I hold contempt for Windcaller in much the same way as I do for Ulfric) 1. No it wasn't. 2. Plenty of mortals can stand up to the Thu'um (and especially Ulfric's skill with it. HIs voice is nothing special) if they are strong enough. Perhaps not to a fully powered Fus Ro Dah, but they wouldn't be ripped apart by Fus. 3. Its lolzy to say that Ulfric was planning on slaying Torygg way back when he was a very young man just going to the Greybeards, when the Great War hadn't happened yet and Torygg was not yet king. It wouldn't have been a "fair" fight regardless. It was more than that, which I'm sure you would know if you spared the sensationalism. The Empire needs to die (read the thread if you need an explanation) and Skyrim stays divided on the actions of the Imperials. Ulfric already made his statement that things need to change (as they most certainly need to), and it was the Empires will to either go in line with that (which they desperately need to if they want to survive another 30 years) or say no. And saying no means that the Stormcloaks have to fight. Thats how these things work.

**** u. that guy didn`t want to chop ur head, if i remember he said: "what should we do with this one, he's not on the list" , he can`t do anything about it cuz he has superiors.. and after the dragon attacks, he helps u more then the stormcloak. so ... i am offended by u cuz i am one of those "retards" who picked the legionaire instead of the rebel. OH and if u go with the legionaire .. when u first meet the stormcloaks he says: "hmm stormcloaks, maybe we can reason with them" .. and i went with the rebel to and he didnt reason at all he was "just kill them" Yes, because the Stormcloaks had any reason at all to think they were going to be able to talk it out with the Imperials, when not moments ago they were in the process of putting them all to the block. It totally makes sense that'd theyd resolve to try and make nice with soldiers that had already decided to have them executed. And Hadvar likely would have just said "Kill them" too, but he was among the few who recognized the dragon as the real problem at the time.

The ancient Nords were perhaps. The Nords we interact with in Skyrim are considerably more civilized thanks to the rise of Talos and his Empire. We're essentially getting the "Twilight" version of the Norse. If the two peoples were as similar as you claim they are, we would see Battleborns and Gray-Manes killing each other in the streets. Civilized is relative. Pacified is accurate. And nothing in them said anything about any particular weapon being banned. The combatants could agree to certain weapons, but that was up to them. And so, as far as we know, either no weapons were agreed upon by Ulfric and Torygg, or, the Thu'um was accepted as a weapon. Your own point defeats you. And again, other cultures are irrelevant here. Guess thats why theres countless peasants roaming the streets of Skyrim, quoting the teachings of Windcaller. The Way of the Voice is unknown. Not the Greybeards. And this is the part where I ask which claim you're asking me to prove. That you could in fact kill a man on the spot for insulting your honor in ancient Norse customs or that the duel between Torygg and Ulfric wasn't a "formal" duel? It helps to not try say something like that if you don't know what answer you're actually going to get. And for the record, the duel in Skyrim. We have no proof of what rules or formalities were laid out by the combatants. So we can only assume that there were none. Its the burden of the accuser of cheating that must prove otherwise. Which they can't, because we can't and won't ever know what happened before the duel. And as for the Norse? Their views on personal honor go deep: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C3%B0ingr http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/drengur.htm Please explain to me how a bunch of hermits being offended (if you can even show that they are, in fact, offended) means anything to the political structure of Tamriel. But yet, that doesn't mean I was referring to you. I don't have to refer to you personally to use your post as a jumping off point to say something in general. But I'm not getting caught up in a battle over semantics. Guess thats why Cyrodiil was always a medieval fairy-tale land! The Imperial Legion is, truly, only comprised of a few dozen men camped out around the Imperial City. Indeed! The Imperial City! Only a hundred people live there! Get my point yet? Do you honestly believe a government comprised of both Altmer and Bosmer would start killing off people of their own race because of their race? No, I didn't think so. From the book "The Great War": You'll also notice that just after that passage, the book says that there was a seventy year gap when no one in the Empire knew what was occurring in the Dominion, except some rumors of internal strife. It sounds likely to me that this was a civil war that was very well contained that was fought over the coup that had just occurred in Valenwood. It is probable that families and cities that didn't want to be a part of the new Dominion fought against the Dominion and that after the initial fighting force was put down, the Thalmor went on to purge every other political dissident. There's also proof in the fact that there aren't scores of Bosmer refugees. If the Dominion is systematically killing off Bosmer for no reason other than being Bosmer, you'd think we'd see refugees. You'd think we'd see news of it. Not even the Dominion can keep absolutely everyone contained within their borders, and if genocide was occuring? Scores would be fleeing and many would survive across the border. There's also the fact that this is less than 200 years AFTER these purges began. If it was genocide, most of the Bosmer would be dead now, and Malborn would not be serving drinks in a Thalmor Embassy. So you agree then that Ulfric using the Thu'um in his duel didn't actually matter? And this isn't going into how thats not the reason at all that people don't try to learn it (hint: only certain people out of the thousands that will ever come to know of the voice will ever get the chance now that the voice is not taught freely) and how you're unwisely bringing gameplay into a discussion about lore. Read up on what the Thu'um actually can do (and could do) before it was turned into some stupid gameplay element that may as well not be there: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu%27um Beth doesn't even follow the same lore they put forth originally on the concept. And thats a shame, because I think Ulfric is a bloody idiot.

And how exactly did you arrive at that conclusion? In case you need reminding, you can challenge quite a few Nords to a fight in Skyrim. They make it a point, before the fight begins that there's to be no magic or weapons etc just fists. If Nords were as violent as the Norse, there would be no such formality. 1. Because the Nords are essential direct copies of the Norse. 2. Those aren't fights to the death. Big, big difference.