Wolvenlight
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In response to post #25007544. #25007814, #25014694, #25016689, #25019509 are all replies on the same post.Such accusation, very evidence.Kraggy wrote:
Sadly this episode exposed the 'entitlement generation' in all their ugly reality, the venom spewed by the freetards who believe everything is theirs by right for nothing was appalling. It was a nasty shock to use more 'mature' players to see it infesting the 'TES community' so destructively.
I agree Dark0ne, we need to move on, but I also agree with what you clearly feel, that the community will never be the same again. :sad:
[edit]
I'm a noob here, my post count shows it, I only took out Premium a few days ago but I've used Nexus pretty much since it started hosting Morrowind mods, I never felt the need to avoid ads, but it was my way of showing some tangible support for the site and those that run it, without Nexus as a place to find the best mods and modders in one place I could trust (in terms of secure and malware-free content), my enjoyment of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim would have been hugely less.
bullpcp wrote: Much respect... but that was kinda... harsh.
Peace. :)freedom613 wrote: Seems to be a great deal of Strawman in your post mate:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
You took a very complex point of view, and boiled it down to "people don't want to pay for stuff".bloodstainer wrote: I agree with Fredom613, its a complex issue, I myself don't mind paying for mods but saying people were outraged because of that would be ignoring the entire issue.
I personally had the biggest issue with the fact that it was an unfair cut with a poorly system implemented completely wrong, adding paid mods to a game this old would only serve to divide the community and all I can hope for is that this deal led to more people donating to mods.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Troll. Someone's sock puppet account. -
In response to post #24966929. #24966984, #24967199, #24968504, #24969224, #24988424, #24989869, #24991699, #24996829, #25011074 are all replies on the same post.I'm glad you made this comment so that it showed your true self, gastovski.gastovski wrote: I'm glad these stuff happened and ended quickly so it showed your true self, Dark0ne.Tyerial12 wrote: Dark0ne did nothing wrong so whats your issuegastovski wrote: He didn't step up against paid mods, end of discussion.bullpcp wrote: Gastovski
He did't step up for paid mods, end of discussion. Two can play at that game. Huzzah!
Seriously though Dark0ne seems to have offended you by... disagreeing with you.
Peace. :)aegiltheugly wrote: @gastovski: I agree with you about Dark0ne! Before this I had no idea he spoke with a British accent. Learning all sorts of things here.Vesuvius1745 wrote: You can't trust people who speak with an English accent. Remember, it was these people who tried to take over our country in 1812.aegiltheugly wrote: I just like the "showed your true self" rhetoric. We are gamers and programmers arguing about paid mods vs free mods; not politicians discussing the economic policy of the EU or the military strategy of a nation.bigdeano89 wrote: Must be so nice to have such and ignorant black and white view on the world gastovski, maybe when you are older you will see the world is NEVER so black and white, and that you need to be tolerant of that to even survive in most jobs.janishewski wrote: He did not speak against them because it was the right thing to do. Modders should have a choice to charge for mods or not. Nobody was forcing anything on anyone. If you don't want to support mods that cost money, don't buy them. Simple as that. And make no mistake, this was no victory. You have won nothing. Paid mods are coming, perhaps with more discussion and interaction from Bethesda, but they are coming and modding will be better for it. I guarantee you.Tyerial12 wrote: he wasnt for or against the mods he took a netural stance.. It wasnt his place to tell what modders can and cant do just like others should of let them have the choice. do i agree on paid mods NO because the system was flawed badly. And i fear that all that would be left on free mod sites is crap mods while all the good once are hidden behind a paywall. Not to mention. lets say Skui charged from now on there mod now look all mods that need it must have PAID for SKyui to use it even if the mod that requires it is free.
Some are barly making it in real life and use skyrim and mods to just chill and now to to that they will have to pay. No im not saying mod authors shouldnt get money for there work but im also saying that they shouldnt be using others work to avoid issues like this -
In response to post #24997179. #24997739, #25000969, #25001074, #25002429, #25002999, #25003089, #25006504, #25010279, #25012879, #25020594 are all replies on the same post.Mr. Davejanishewski wrote: Since some mod authors erase any comment they don't agree with I will state my argument for paid mods here. I am a chef and a restaurant owner. What does that have to do with this you ask? The analogy is that Valve would be my infrastructure. The things that allow my business to operate (utilities, the building housing my restaurant, parking, etc). Bethesda would be my food companies. They provide me with the resources and tools needed to produce my product. Then I, using these resources create and sell what I've produced. Anyone wanna guess what my average profit margin is after expenses. Yep, you guessed it, 25-30%. Around 30% is standard for the industry though obviously there are those that make more and those that make less. If someone told me I could make a guaranteed 25% profit for the rest of the time my business exists, I would take it in a heartbeat, and so would anyone else I've ever known in the industry. So lets stop pretending that it was the % that mod makers were getting that was the problem. Obviously those selling their mods and those that wanted to did not feel that way. Would a 35% been better, of course, but 25% was a perfectly acceptable place to start.
I work roughly 80-100 hours per week. If I were to let people come in and eat my food with nothing more than a "donation" option, how long do you think I would be motivated to continue to work and how long would a business like that last? The answer to both is "not one minute". If everyone that downloaded and endorsed a mod "donated" even 50 cents American to the modder, this would never be an issue. The truth that I have heard from modders is that, for some of the larger mods, it is less than 1% of endorsers that donate. So please stop with the donation nonsense. Hoping for donations does not pay the bills. What you rejected was the ability for talented people to build an entire industry around creating more content for great games. Nobody was forcing anything on anyone and free mods would still be all over the place as they were. What you took away was choice and as a result, the number, quality, and ambition of mods will take a hit and talented modders will move on to other projects or mod for games to do allow them compensation for their labor. This was a victory for nobody. It was also irrelevant as optional paid mods will return and they will return with Bethesda products. I guarantee that and I don't guarantee much. Anyway, I hope that this post offers a different way to look at the issue.bullpcp wrote: People were essentially opposed to other consenting adults voluntarily interacting n a manner that they didn't agree with.
25% is actually much higher as a percentage return than many creators are able to get in many industries. I know that for instance authors often only get 5% for their works and that if you make the financial comparison the return on assets is often only around 8%.
Of course the only relevant opinions on the matter of just compensation and cost are between those selling and those purchasing goods and services.retnav98 wrote: People talk about the costs to host mods as a reasonable justification for taking 75% of the profit... But they are/were taking None of the LIABILITY. As well, they are hosting Free mods of Arguably BETTER Quality and incurring the same cost and liability. Is there an industry where such a compensation dichotomy is present?
Mr. Dave wrote: First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid.
Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything.
I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them.
Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally.
Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple.
Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies.bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I personally think 25% was terrible I probably wouldn't work for that low of a percentage. I just don't think I should have any say in what another human being considers reasonable or unreasonable. I'm unsure why you think them not being held liable is an issue. Whether they pay a percent or a set amount the distributor wouldn't be held liable regardless.
Person A: I got a job for 25,000/year doing the same thing I used to get 0/year.
Person B: They should pay you 100,000/year
Person A: No I'm good with the 25,000/year, thank you.
Person B: They shouldn't be allowed to pay you that little.
Person A: Please stop trying to help. I'm good with the 25,000/year.
Person B: No you should work for 100,000 or zero.
Person A: Please stop trying to help me. I'm really good with the 25,000/year.bullpcp wrote: "First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid."
For many this is exactly what they mentioned in their arguments so it may be irrelevant for you but several hundred posts would indicate others hold a different view on this.
"Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything."
If you are referring to things produced that have nothing to do with Skyrim or Bethesda obvious statements are obvious. If you are referring to mods, or anything else, that runs on Skyrim's engine, but created not using their creation kit. Then you are still using their IP. You do realize making something to run on another game engine... kinda uses their IP.
"I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them."
Uh... Yea. Did someone tell you that if you made something that had nothing to do with Skryim or Bethesda you couldn't distribute it? Yea that would be obviously wrong.
"Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally."
So if what you stated is correct than many mods that Bethesda already technically owned were being allowed to be sold for profit by people who did not own them. I don't know that anyone actually ever advocated for the allowing stolen IP to be sold.
"Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple."
The garbage mods that were being spammed up for sale were not selling and would not have sold. The mods that would have sold may have been different. Since it was never given a chance we will never know. You are arguing a hypothetical... we all are.
"Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies."
I don't agree that is was a victory. I wasn't involved in any conflict so I feel no need to cry. You mad bro... need a hug? Maybe you can eat my moms cookies... jealous? Don't choke on the Haterade.
You do realize I actually benefit from this outcome. I don't want to pay for mods. I just feel that I should be able to look beyond my own self interest and propose a solution that is fair even if it disadvantages me.retnav98 wrote: I agree...I don't have a right to tell people what compensation for THEIR efforts is fair. Does that mean that I should remain silent while I am aware that LIES and misinformation is being foisted?
The liability they incur is only the cost of a refund, which they did honor while simultaneously penalizing the USER. Does that response HELP Modders?. It would be reasonable to infer that this response was hurtful to modders; it kind of looks like Valve was NOT supporting the Modders at all. You gotta wonder what the end-game was...It might be they were not all on the same page at Bethesda and Valve.
What if they WERE all mindful of an endgame that was NOT what they publicly asserted...We're seeing that statistics cited were not credible...WHAT ELSE?bullpcp wrote: retnav98
Please indicate where and how Bethesda and Valve related "LIES and misinformation". I'm honestly interested in the who, what, and were of such misinformation but have yet to read a credible citation.
How does a refund penalize the USER?
By "response" are you referring to the refund because yes a refund would help a mod user and no that would not be hurtful to modders. Bad mods get downloaded for free everyday if you give back the mod users right back were they started. Could mod users abuse the system... maybe but systems evolve... when given the chance. For instance Valve was going to limit refunds.
What statistics were they relating were not valid?
Hanlon's razor
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."~Robert A. Heinlein'retnav98 wrote: It has been explained ad infinitum that Valve and Bethesda were and are endowed with an Extensive knowledge base in All aspects of Gaming... Just like things that are too good to be true, Excuses/decisions that defy the understanding of the rest of the Industry (too implausible to be true) are ALSO usually untrue.
I have read posts that estimate PC sales as high as 8.8 million..These estimates come from a variety of sources, You seem to be saying that they ALL are in error and the numbers/percentages that were originally projected sales just two days after release and are identical to what was represented as up-to-date...is pure coincidence.. Maybe I'm missing your concession...
It has been reported and confirmed that people who returned games for refund, were banned for a week. The reason (supposedly) was that it is policy to restrict unconfirmed payments...and it was a countermeasure to potential CC theft ..Who steals their Mommy's CC then asks for a refund? Notice, they didn't delay the purchase for a week. They allowed the user to have the mod, the Ban was enforced when a refund was requested. The punitive result of this policy Hurts sales...if users are discouraged from refunding...the more likely result is the USER will no longer BUY MODS...
"How can you be so obtuse?"
Andy Dufresne
bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I'm actually asking to cite specific examples with actual evidence to back up what you are saying. Instead you are repeatedly ASSERTING without a shred of evidence or data to back up your ASSERTIONS. I actually want to verify that what you are writing is correct to come to my own conclusions without relying upon some random people on the internet words for it. I want to come to the most logically conclusion based upon the most substantial evidence. If I am wrong I want to know exactly what and why.
How are you so comfortable simply accepting people's word for it? You seem incredibly at ease accepting what you want to be true without any evidence but don't even acknowledge dozens of citations directly contradicting your previous beliefs. You simply move onto the next assertion like nothing happened.
Please cite the source of the 8.8 million PC sales estimate. I have cited at least two complete sets of data for all three platform sales that indicate PC units sales are a minority. You assert that 8.8 million is sales is reasonable and that this number comes from a variety of sources than this should be really easy... cite one.
You keep ASSERTING that the percentage of sales on each platform were the same two days after release again... citation needed.
Were people have actually cited their sources they have often been misinterpreted or just plain wrong.
Please indicate were all of these reports are and how they were confirmed. Please indicate why Valves reasons are obviously wrong. I've had my account frozen several times in the last few years. I'm assuming the reasons they gave me were prima facie true but... maybe conspiracy... maybe reasons...
I have repeatedly pointed out how very poor the paid for mod execution was. You pointing out problems that occurred within 5 days of rolling out a new and untested product is hardly reason to believe it COULD not work. If what you write is correct about no one buying paid for mods then paid for mods would have naturally become irrelevant anyway.
Peace. :)retnav98 wrote: You have Dark0ne's own explanation of a timeline of events from his perspective, You have the Total biscuit interview...Discussing Impressions by people directly connected to those making the VALVE/Bethesda decisions and releases. Those aren't Random sources...nor are they "half-baked" opinions. They don't make the leap I have. Which may mean I am off-base...it may also be because they are in Business with these people and would be ending their career if they did.
Your need to see numbers and statistics is already satisfied and in front of you..Harbringe and Jason' have both sited variations that do not square with the 14%. You seem to have responded that if we are unable to accept the 14% the only thing one must assume is the improbable belief that STEAM is unaware of how many games were sold....which I say is not the ONLY conclusion one can or must consider.
If the 14% is in error or not up-to-date...then the percentage of people involved in modding is also incorrect. and we come back to the question repeatedly asked in the TB discussion...How could they get this so completely wrong and how are they so disconnected from the very Community they say they were trying to reward?
I never said modders don't have a right to make money...My very first post on this Forum boiled down to 2 points...People have seen this coming and we shouldn't be surprised at the move,we should be surprised at the manner it was done. My second point was that we should not judge people harshly for their decision to charge for their mods. I have not abandoned ANY position. Though I have come to publicly express regret for my choice to boycott.
I cited the practice to Ban users who requested refunds. You needed clarification as if I was the first to bring it up and had no grasp of cause and effect but you are perfectly willing to write it off as an anomaly attributed to the 1st 5 days of a launch (Growing Pains?). Evidently, I should simply ignore that this is a Company with more than a decade of experience in Sales.. 125 million active users and the source for 75% of ALL on-line PC Game sales.
I certainly seems that it is YOU who are abandoning and shifting.
The percentage cut was one of the most mentioned issues the community had with the whole paid mods thing. So it was the problem, but not for the reasons many would think, which was OPs point.
The modders who jumped on the pay bandwagon were a mix of people who either created unique assets or edited assets. Really, they had every right to edit game assets (as they were given that right by Bethesda, the creators of those assets.) Unless you're talking about modders taking assets from, say, immersive armors and putting them in their own mods, or creating their mod to be SKSE reliant and not giving proper credit and compensation. But that's a far cry from all of them.
I do agree that paid modding can divide a community with greed. It tends to stifle innovation when people are so concerned about competition that open resources and tutorials go away. -
In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569 are all replies on the same post.I dunno Caladan, Ves has been nice to me so far. Granted, I don't agree with his points, and yeah, I've seen him lash out at others, but I think that has more to do with everyone lashing out at everyone.acidzebra wrote:
Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.
The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.
If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.
I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.
Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.
"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.
CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo
Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".
Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.
If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.
The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)
Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.
Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.
And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.Eiries wrote:Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.
Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...
Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed themlereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.
Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,
Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.
I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trollsMarstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?
Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one
Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near futuremacintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.Marstonn wrote: Caladan
I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.
The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.
They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.lereddit wrote: @macintroll
Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.
" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...
You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.
Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?
I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?
Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watchCaladanAnduril wrote: Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"
And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature
And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.lereddit wrote: Yeah, whatever bro. No use arguing with lunatics on the internet
Gimme some of that weed you're smoking, I wanna go to LaLa land too.
Holy s#*!, at least try to speak in coherent sentences. Or use google translatorVesuvius1745 wrote: First of all, you have no idea what I have or haven't contributed. If you've read some of my other posts, you might get an idea. But you know what? That's irrelevant.
I would never want payment for a mod I created, and this is the main reason: because, as you have said, I HAVE enjoyed all the free content that has been provided to the community for years. And you know what? So have YOU. Contributing to the community is called paying-it-forward, and every mod out there (and I don't care how individual you think your specific snowflake is), was a GROUP EFFORT--the culmination of everything and everyone who has come before you to make this possible.
Programmers who have a lot more skill than is required for a game mod have donated their efforts to bring some outstanding utilities and resources to the community (ENB, SKSE, FORE, Wyre Bash, and on and on and on). Many mods would not even function without these free resources, or would be mediocre. They gave these things to the community with no expectation of anything other than to encourage creativity, and more mods being shared with everybody. The same goes for every other mod author who has released a free mod (they have enjoyed free mods from the same community, and they are giving something back). Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash.Merinid wrote: @Vesuvius1745 man that's some true words. May i quote you? :)Vesuvius1745 wrote: Thanks, yeah anything I have written feel free to quote.
People like Phantompally on the other hand... Holy crap, that guy needed to calm down. Thankfully, he seems to have realized this as well.
As for OP, you'll find all kinds. I'm a leech who was neutral, but I find myself siding with the pro-paid mods group more often than not. The only thing I don't like about paid mod systems is how I've heard that it messed up modding communities in other games, like the Sims. -
In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429 are all replies on the same post.Harbringe wrote:I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.
retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...
foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.
Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problemfoster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.
Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "
unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?
But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.
Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)
L8r dudes and dudettes.lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.
This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.
User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.
User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.retnav98 wrote: Foster,
Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.
You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?
I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.
Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.
Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.
And they would still have to split the profits within their team.
No....just no.foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.
Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.
But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.
You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.
NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.
Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.
I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was. -
In response to post #24816339. #24817409, #24817554 are all replies on the same post.I have read many of these threads. I still have yet to see that claim. The only people I see making it are the anti-paid side speaking in such a way they're putting words in the mouths of the paid mod authors themselves. (I've seen a lot of that as well.) Perhaps I've missed the few cases this is true, however, I have seen many, many paid mod authors pointing out the hatred and vitriol directed at them by the people they thought were part of a supportive modding community. I've seen many, many free mod consumers and free mod authors attacking the paid side with words like "you're a disease, entitled brats, we don't need you." No, what we don't need is that behavior. I don't care if you've modded or not, an attack is an attack no matter where it comes from.Vesuvius1745 wrote:Wolvenlight wrote: While I could be wrong, I haven't seen any mod authors state that they couldn't continue modding because they weren't getting paid. From what I understand, they reacted to the horrid backlash from the community and decided from there that the community they had been a part of for years was a fickle bunch of spoiled jack offs who didn't actually appreciate mod authors at all. I'm paraphrasing, and I don't agree, but that's what I've read and I can understand the logic behind it. If I were a mod author and many of my "fans" treated me like that, I might jump ship too.
If anything, the introduction of a paid mod system meant they could do what they love for a living (or at least spend more time on it,) and the retraction of that system meant they couldn't. Unfortunately, while I think paid mods would cause a lot of problems and I'm sort of relieved it all ended, good people got screwed over more than just losing out on potential revenue.Vesuvius1745 wrote: " I haven't seen any mod authors state that they couldn't continue modding because they weren't getting paid."
Read some of these threads. Multiple mod authors have stated as such.
And some of that "selfish community" that "attacked" them were mod authors themselves, and although I could be wrong, seemed to be upset that these modders were piggy-backing on the work others had given to the community for free, and trying to make a profit off of it. The programmers of ENB, FORE, SKSE and many others have given countless hours of their time developing these tools and utilities, and gifting them to the community with the only expectation that people pay-it-forward (i.e. more mods given to the community). It might be disappointing to such individuals to see their work taken, used, relied upon, and then stuck in a pay-for system on Steam.
And perhaps it's true that some of the paid mod authors can't continue modding because they aren't paid. Perhaps being paid gave them the financial freedom to mod again where they could no longer find the time before. It's not an automatically nefarious claim.
Now, I totally get the concern with taking assets that aren't yours and using them in your own mod. That happened a couple times and it shouldn't have, but that's such a small minority. I also get the whole piggybacking off of free work to make paid work concern. That said, that's true of anything. Using Java to make a paid game, using Open Office to write a book, using Blender to make paid clothing mods for the Sims. (That last one is one of the reasons I don't want a paid mod system for Elder Scrolls.) It's really up to the user agreements of the free resources and those using them for paid work to discuss themselves. Perhaps some of those resource providers would be fine with it, at least if paid modders had asked and worked out their terms.
But regardless of where the hate started, it shouldn't have started at all, and it shouldn't have continued. I'm not for paid modding, but if I had to choose, I'd be perfectly fine paying kind and fair modders over not having to pay jerk modders. (Neither of these scenarios exist in a vacuum, but you get the idea.) Nobody is really being selfish, but there are a lot of illogical accusations flying around. I've just seen more on the anti-pay side than the pro-pay side so far. -
In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904, #24811959, #24813484 are all replies on the same post.Chido, I have to take FavoredSouls side here. Regardless of whether or not paid modding was a good idea overall, (and I personally think it wasn't,) the consumer portion of the Nexus was far more filled with extreme vitriol and hatred towards the paid authors, people who have given so much for free already. Very few mod authors who tried the paid workshop actually cared enough about being compensated to the point they wouldn't have modded in the first place. When presented with the option, they tried it. It did okay for some but ultimately failed. Many of them accepted that gracefully. Heck, it was always a possibility, quite a few games allow mods to be sold. Bethesda could always make that choice, and you know this is true, because they just did. However brief it was. And if your motivation is experience and a portfolio, then money is your motivation, simple as that.chidosity wrote:Brasscatcher wrote: And if they don't like it, they can hit the bricks. Right on, chido!FavoredSoul wrote: You totally missed the point of my post.
95% of my discontent had to do with the simple fact that this "issue" has brought to the surface, such a disgusting amount of hate that I never knew existed, or was even possible. And why?
Did I even have any mods for sale? No. Only about 15 people were even part of the program, let me repeat that, *FIFTEEN*, so for people like you to say that people like me are greedy and entitled, when we DIDN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING, that's the truly heart breaking part.
I was merely upset and disappointed over the fact that, for the briefest moment, the POSSIBILITY of some kind of return system existed, and it was so vilified, and so hated, that you guys decided to make, in large part, the mod-authors the target of that hate, and not bethesda and valve who were the ones that CREATED IT.
So again, when people like you say to people like me, "good riddance we don't need you", it just proves how disposable you think we are. You're happy to use our mods when we're offering, and just as readily are willing to throw us away without a second thought. You take us for granted, and that makes you nothing else but a selfish individual. And you say that I am the one with the disease?
I would say that anybody who posts comments like that, filled with hate, is the one with the disease. I haven't done anything. I didn't pull my mods from the Nexus. I didn't put any mods behind a paywall. Where did all this hate come from?Musicdude132 wrote: "Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.
Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit."
Well said.
I haven't been following this debacle, but I have seen some modders attacking users for "taking away their dream of making money off of mods" and in response will no longer be uploading free mods any more. How childish.WightMage wrote: Personally, I think modders should be compensated at some point, but I agree that the end goal of modding should not be financial, for reasons stated over the past three news threads.WightMage wrote: FavoredSoul, I get that the modders who joined the initial program (and were subsequently burned, both by users and Valve/Bethesda) were for the most part wrongly attacked, but I'm honestly confused as to how you can believe that mod-authors were vilified alone.
I've been watching these comments threads for six days too long, and from what I've seen, the hatred has passed from Valve/Bethesda, to SPECIFIC mod authors, back to Valve, back to Bethesda, stayed with Bethesda, back to Valve, and now that the system is dead, focused on mod users, many of whom were in fact DEFENDING the right of mod authors to get paid if they so wished. When people started attacking *you*, it was because you posted a reply that attacked mod users, who in turn thought that *you* were being entitled.
Do you see the problem here? This isn't helping anything. Anytime anyone creates a large post written entirely in the spirit of passion infused hatred, it just brews more hatred and we hear each other even less and less and yell more and more in response to being heard less.
It's only getting worse, and everyone involved with this riot mongering is culpable, even the OP of this thread. But from what I gather, he and several others like him only posted this because he felt he was being attacked, just as you did originally.
TL;DR, we all seriously need to get a drink together and talk about s#*! without throwing glasses at each other's face.sunshinenbrick wrote: I think the end goal if there is one for me is maybe getting a JOB out of it, not money. Not necessarily as a game designer but I find that what is my hobby actually allows me to learn a lot of skills.
A job (which modding can feel like sometimes) is about more than money, it is about realising your potential as a human being. What was offered was a job contract, and a lousy illegal one at that which had next to no protection for anyone except themselves and a few others.
Now I like to believe that there are some great people at both Beth and Val but with things the way they are in the world they are sometimes thrown into situations and make very bad decisions in the process. The problem with big business. This does not excuse what they did but it should not mean that there cannot be an open dialogue with them so as we can express our fears and concerns so that (as this is probably inevitable) we can find a compromise that we agree on. Authors and users alike. I think we must also argue that ending free modding altogether will be their undoing eventually.
Sorry I do not know you either and I have just mouthed off my opinions on your post but I just feel there are some deep issues here we need to get to grips with.
That's my 2 cents... or what ever the hell people are saying nowadays ;Dsvanderwerf wrote: this is pretty much my entire problem with Valve's handing of this clusterfeic
They took an existing and very healthy community and did the one thing absolutely guaranteed to cause an ideological war. The level of mismanagement is staggering, and I'll be amazed if whoever was responsible for this debacle still has a job.
When people like you attack them, calling them entitled brats, a disease, tell them how they should think, why they should do modding, (or anything,) as if you own the very concept... coming off to others as if you think you're so much better than them because you do it for free? (Not to be confused with "for nothing.") You prove everything the paid authors say against you and the people who first started this "war." Especially because you attacked first. I don't care how many mods you've made. I've never made one in my life and I'm on the paid authors side here. You think they're delusional? We don't need your mods either. We don't need you. Bethesda doesn't need you. There will always be other people. Your opinion isn't automatically better because you've made mods for free, or at all.
Also, no, nobody is going to replace them when they leave. People will come and go as they always have, but only you and your kind have chased good people away by being so dead set against not the system for it's flaws, but the innocent people who did nothing but fall outside your banner. We have lost their mods, their ideas, their concepts and assets because of the horrible things said by people like you. I like free mods, but I like fair, kind people a lot more. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a smaller more expensive modding community than a hate filled one. (Neither exist, but hey.)
Enough is enough. It's fine if you think it's a bad idea. Discuss it's flaws, rail against Bethesda, be logical, convince people. Don't hurt innocent people, and don't let jerks goad you.
Also, please learn how to use the word "entitled" correctly. I haven't seen anyone use it right once this entire fiasco. -
In response to post #24810109. #24810954, #24813769, #24814189 are all replies on the same post.Quite a few mods made about a thousand dollars in about five days. It totally did work for some, but you're right that most would find themselves lacking.eu3fan wrote:WightMage wrote: ...Ok, that's actually pretty awesome. The getting a job with IBM thanks to your mod portfolio, I mean.blackasm wrote: honestly programmers do not feel the pain of artists. Artists work is constantly devalued in every arena because artists themselves provide their work for nothing and help foster cultures that take advantage of them. whereas for the most part computer programmers earn above 80k whereas art graduates are for the most part unemployed. There is a huge difference between the amount of free time programmers have and artists have as well as the realistic opportunity for success based on portfolio.jediakyrol wrote: and also..typically an artist's work is worthless until he is dead. Van Gogh couldn't get people to take his paintings for free...but once he died he was called a "master artist" and his paintings became worth millions... ... ...
That said, I agree with the point that we would have much less with a paid mod system. Content tends to get shared in a free system, and in a paid system people tend to hold on to their assets and not teach others how to do things for themselves, (to cull potential competition.) -
While I could be wrong, I haven't seen any mod authors state that they couldn't continue modding because they weren't getting paid. From what I understand, they reacted to the horrid backlash from the community and decided from there that the community they had been a part of for years was a fickle bunch of spoiled jack offs who didn't actually appreciate mod authors at all. I'm paraphrasing, and I don't agree, but that's what I've read and I can understand the logic behind it. If I were a mod author and many of my "fans" treated me like that, I might jump ship too.
If anything, the introduction of a paid mod system meant they could do what they love for a living (or at least spend more time on it,) and the retraction of that system meant they couldn't. Unfortunately, while I think paid mods would cause a lot of problems and I'm sort of relieved it all ended, good people got screwed over more than just losing out on potential revenue. -
In response to post #24784749. #24784879, #24784999 are all replies on the same post.Always happy to make your day. If I didn't do it, someone might have thought you spelled it wrong on accident.phantompally76 wrote:Wolvenlight wrote: develop*
Sorry, I had to. You're such a stickler for grammar I couldn't resist.
As an edit, let me play the other side of the fence.
"Sure, we can try something like this out. Just know that you must also log all your hours to differentiate between when you're testing and when you're playing for enjoyment. This won't really matter though, as it will instead be based on the number of bugs you find instead of a per hour rate, (commission instead of hourly, as it were.) The rate can be negotiated, but I recommend about 50 cents per bug you find. You must also be the first to find the bug, though we will be open to paying those after you if your report is shoddy. Oh, and you obviously must pay for the mod first for the privilege of working with them. $9.99 is an exaggeration, and I think we both know that, but I admire your tenacity.
We look forward to hearing from you in the future. We'll hash out the details of what constitutes a bug in future messages."phantompally76 wrote: I know you couldn't. That's why I put it in there. You didn't let me down. -
In response to post #24784099. #24784289 is also a reply to the same post.These are all fantastic points and I agree with every single one.ReconTA wrote:bullpcp wrote: "It took 1 entire day for the Skyrim community to be hit by this bad idea. The maker of SkyUI, the most popular SKyrim mod in its history announced he wouldn’t support it anymore and was going to be making a pay only version for the future."
I would just like to point out that this modder would not have otherwise updated his mod at all. Essentially the paid for option presented a mod that otherwise would not have existed. -
I can't help but agree with this. It does seem rather unfair to stop support on an older version of something just because you're charging for the newer version.
-
In response to post #24784749. #24784999 is also a reply to the same post.develop*phantompally76 wrote:phantompally76 wrote: I know you couldn't. That's why I put it in there. You didn't let me down.
Sorry, I had to. You're such a stickler for grammar I couldn't resist.
As an edit, let me play the other side of the fence.
"Sure, we can try something like this out. Just know that you must also log all your hours to differentiate between when you're testing and when you're playing for enjoyment. This won't really matter though, as it will instead be based on the number of bugs you find instead of a per hour rate, (commission instead of hourly, as it were.) The rate can be negotiated, but I recommend about 50 cents per bug you find. You must also be the first to find the bug, though we will be open to paying those after you if your report is shoddy. Oh, and you obviously must pay for the mod first for the privilege of working with them. $9.99 is an exaggeration, and I think we both know that, but I admire your tenacity.
We look forward to hearing from you in the future. We'll hash out the details of what constitutes a bug in future messages." -
In response to post #24778264. #24780889, #24783814, #24784399 are all replies on the same post.You missed my point. Those "entitled stoners" never thought that you owed them anything either. So I turned it around on you. Also:Harbringe wrote:phantompally76 wrote: No one is forcing you to read anything I type.
If it's getting so tiresome, then stop reading it.
Is such a concept REALLY that hard for you to comprehend?
And, once again....it's "you're", not "your". That almost annoys me as much as entitled stoners who think I owe them a living.
Almost.Wolvenlight wrote: Those entitled stoners, no matter how high they may be, do not and will never owe you anything for free either.phantompally76 wrote: I have never once in this entire controversy even hinted that they do. That's a point you simply want me to have had, and are trying to project it into my character. But that is simply not how I feel, and I have not once....NOT ONCE intimated that viewpoint.
None of you owe me anything. Not a single one of you. Nothing. Not a sausage.
And I owe you nothing, in return.
That's our relationship. Always has been. YOU wanted that relationship to change, not me.
Well, it HAS changed. But probably not in the way you wanted...
"I have never once in this entire controversy even hinted that they do." - You.
"That said...my appreciation and thanks is all you're going to get from me. *And you'd damned well better be glad you have even that, and that's all you should bloody well expect....from ANYONE.* You are GROSSLY overvaluing what you do." - Also you.
That's a pretty big hint right there. Fact is, endorsements and "thanks" are free. To be so against actual monetary compensation for quality mods is another hint. -
In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579, #24742634, #24742744, #24742799, #24742804, #24742964, #24743039, #24743319, #24743439, #24743614, #24743699, #24743779, #24743799, #24743809, #24743899, #24743969, #24744239, #24744704, #24746029, #24747899, #24749729, #24750024, #24751049, #24751199, #24766859, #24767519, #24767764, #24770099, #24771514, #24771974, #24772789, #24772979, #24773749, #24773819, #24773909, #24774049, #24774289, #24774359, #24774519, #24774549, #24774589, #24775464, #24775549, #24775694, #24775699, #24775889, #24775919, #24776224, #24776959, #24777129, #24778039, #24778044 are all replies on the same post.@phantompally. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon of people who think you're being rather illogical.foster xbl wrote:phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?
Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.foster xbl wrote: because...... I guessOiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.
The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.
The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?
Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"
I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.
By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.
We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"
This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they shouldKorodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.
Before this all happened of course :P
EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.
No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......
I don't owe you anything.
And you don't owe me anything.
That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.
I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.
I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic
But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.
The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.
Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.
You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).
Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic
IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.
It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."
People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.
Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.
Bye I guess.
-nlm (-.-) mln-foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."
And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?
Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster
Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.
@ Korodic
apologiesphantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.
If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.
I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.
And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.
so get. off. your. high. horse.foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas
None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theresWarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.
Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.
Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.
That is my take on it, hate me if you will.Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.
From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.
A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.
This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much tojet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?jfisha wrote: Korodic,
Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?
Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.
I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.
Calm down, man, for the love of Godphantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas
None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"
I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.
But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.
I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.
And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.
But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.
But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.
Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl
I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?
You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?
A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).
I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."
You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.
Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.
There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.
While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.
There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.
I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.
When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.
Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5
This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.
I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.
But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."
this says it all.WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorryfftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.
I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.
Calm down, man, for the love of God"
I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.
IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.OiramX5 wrote: Foster
Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.
I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.
I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.
RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.
Don't cross my people.phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.
Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.
We done?foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "
I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlashKorodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?
On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.
Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."
Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.
But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:
By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5
My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.Ventry wrote: @foster xbl
Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?
If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.
Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:
By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."
Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.
The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.
I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.
Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"
the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"
It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745
What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.
If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.
I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.
I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.
Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step
Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.
Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again
second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.
700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kitphantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?
NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.
You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.
Am I getting through to you at all?Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."
Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.Ventry wrote: @foster
and I applaud you.
do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.
Can you see the damage it did?WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.
Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.
This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76
you got through to me with your very first post trust me
now let me try one last time to get through to you.
The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said
File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods
Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.OiramX5 wrote: Foster
Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)
Kodoric
Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.
But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "
I agree 100%.
I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."
Amen.Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.
Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.jfisha wrote: Foster
File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Ummm... they made the game?
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods
Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.
Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :PVesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.
So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:
Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.
If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.foster xbl wrote: @jfisha
I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profitsanonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.
No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.
Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".
The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.
Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".
Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.
That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.
Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?
Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.
For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.
Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.
If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.
And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.
Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.
Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.
Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.
The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.
Free modding 4-ever.WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed
Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.
In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(EnaiSiaion wrote: When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.
Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.Lateraliss wrote: Warfighter, it's already been like that for years. There are modders who removed their mods from Nexus because of conflicts with the community. There have been modders that removed their mods from Nexus because people weren't worshiping them enough. It's an endless cycle. The point is there is always someone else that comes along and makes a great mod that replaces what we lost.
My belief if once a person decides that money is more important than the hobby, they focus instead on what can make them the most money instead of what would make the best quality, and that's what will end up destroying the modding community. Hundreds of low quality paid mods coming out like an assembly line. Why work on one huge mod that will get you 5 bucks when you can create 100 retextures in the same amount of time and sell them for 99 cents each.Vesuvius1745 wrote: It looks like you don't understand my position, and I don't understand yours, so I will bow out of this discussion as I don't think anything productive will come out of it.
I will parrot the sentiment of another poster, that at least one good thing will come out of this mess: it will cull the modding community of certain types of individuals. And as history has shown, when one modder leaves, it doesn't take long for another to take their place.
Having said that, you should be thanked for what you have given to the community thus far, and I wish you well in your future endeavors.jfisha wrote: @foster xbl
I guess that's where we're getting off track then. You're allowed to profit with your mod, I don't care.
However, I think you're complaining about this on the wrong forum. Steam is where all the death threats and really bad vitriol was coming from. Sure, there's been some here but for the most part, it's been cordial. Hell, look at Chesko's Frostfall comments. It's an over whelming amount of support.
What's confusing me is why are you on a site that has repeatedly stated it will never charge for mods and is committed to making sure the mods here remain free, complaining about why you can't charge for mods? We're all friends here and all, but I just don't get it. Go after those little bastards on SteamInky84 wrote: i dont know about the other people but jfisha is right.. i have no problem paying or donating to YOU but the way valve and beth set it up. you would prolly not see a dime. 25% is outrageous. plus the fact that your mods would just end up on pirates bay makes it more likely. i think that if nexus made a wallet similar to steam. (reason for this is cause i have a life too and i cant go to my paypal everytime and wonder/be worried if i can donate every time i like a mod.) that said.. i also think that donate button should also be in a better place both on nexus and steam. that way when they see it..it gives them a sense of morality.
just a thought =)sunshinenbrick wrote: Developers will sell just the sdk on its own before long then say, make your your own goddam games! Ha :)foster xbl wrote: @jfisha
I'm going after no-one.
I'm here because this is where I post my content
(I have some items on steam, but always with a direct link to the updated version here on the nexus, and even then only like 11 of my mods were posted there)
I couldn't care less about the children on the steam community,
This is where a posted my work
This is where I read the uproar over paid mods
This is where I read the attacks on authors
This is where I read the praise for the program being shut down
This is where I wanted to post my viewssunshinenbrick wrote: There has been a lot of praise for author's as well.
EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the other parts of the community have been more or less forgotten about. Debugging, Moderating, Testing, Troubleshooting, Programming, 3d Modelling, Boris (he is in a class of his own), All the other tool makers and "external" content creators that contribute their work.
Kudos to you all.jfisha wrote: @foster xbl
I'm not trying to shew you away. I guess we're just reading different mod authors comments.
This was a small battle between two ways of thinking. Your side lost, for now, but what I'm just trying to reiterate to you is that some of us... scratch, that; a lot of us understand perfectly well what you want and while we disagree, I can't hold it against you. Making money doing something you like? That's the f*#@in dream!
Here's an idea; why don't we just discuss ways where perhaps we can meet in the middle?Lordkabal26 wrote: Bethesda should man up and allow Mod Creators to setup Patreon pages. Currently Bethesda doesn't allow those sorts of donation pages where the donation page is for the mod or mod team they only allow personal donations.sunshinenbrick wrote: Such a key point, totally agree!!theblueshark wrote:
funny thing is, I voted against the paid mod because valve is gets a bigger share than the modder.. just saying...CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: The paid model was unsuccessful. You may have made some awesome mods but if people don't want to pay for them, that isn't bullying, abuse or trolling. That's the market at work.
...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product.digitaltrucker wrote: I've said it before and I'll sat it again:
All Bethesda would have had to do to begin with was remove the 'mods must be free' clause from the CK. It would have changed absolutely NOTHING for them, and the ball would be squarely in our court. I have confidence the market would sort it out, most likely by just adding a pay extension to the system already in place.
Utterly simple, and I find it hard to believe that between TWO well established successful companies nobody considered it.YngvieMalmsteen wrote: Korodic, i have 2000 hours playing chivalry medieval warfare, because i enjoy it. i didnt get any money from doing it, but i dont regret it, because i enjoyed doing it. people mod because they enjoy doing it. if you didnt enjoy the 2000 hours you spent in the creation kit like i enjoyed the 2000 hours ive spent in chivalry medieval warfare, you making more money than i have doing it since you got one donation, then why did you do it in the first place if it wasnt to make money?EnaiSiaion wrote: Yes, when you dangle money in front of people and then take it away, they feel they missed out on something.foster xbl wrote: "
...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product. "
Sick of it or not....if you're making money from the videos you create which showcase Skyrim mods....you're making money from Skyrim mods... how is this different?
Anyways, said enough on the matter. The two sides of this debate aren't going to change the other minds.sunshinenbrick wrote: Google are in all sorts of grey area on this with pretty much everything. But they are rich and powerful.hafizlordfeast wrote: You do realize the issue of paid mods are so many? So you are saying that copycat mods deserve to get paid? Do you think mods that are clearly not official DLC's that could broke the game, without Bethesda's support, deserve to be paid? Do you even think buggy mods deserve to be paid?
Donation is the only way to provide the payment gratitude the modders deserve. That's the only creative motivation that he or she will need, for financial reason. You know that YouTube doesn't give you money out of nowhere, right?
If you care enough about the modders to be paid, why don't you give them the money they deserve, because I know not all of us are rich people who can just give people ten dollars on every mod we want to get? I guess you are then? We expect free mods so we get free mods, and you already know the downside of having a mod in the first place, bugs and conflict, and you want us to pay for that?
We won't complain about the paywall if there's no problem to mods in the first place. Why don't you at least THINK before spouting your naive nobility towards all of us. It's not as simple to contribute to modders as if we are rich men. It is Bethesda and Valve responsibility to actually give financial help to them in the first place, not us, and they even get the most cut instead of modders. You think that's fair?
For the love of god, if you want to help them so much, GIVE them money, more money because they deserve it. Are you capable enough to do that or you're just ordering us to do what you want us to do?: Pay them, pay them all. I don't, because I don't have the luxury of giving them monthly salary, they modders know what they are doing is not a job, its a hobby, no matter how hard the hobby is.
If they feel it isn't enough for financial benefits, go find a job, or better yet, go find a job at Bethesda. We don't want to pay for mods because we know the positive and negative of mods, some weights the other. Common sense that should be implemented in your brain before commenting this naivety.Wolvenlight wrote: I'll start off by saying I am not a content creator, not a modder, not an uploader. The most I've ever done was make UT2k4 maps, and I only released those among friends. I've always wanted to try modding Skyrim, but I've never had the time.
I do, however, download and browse the mods on this site constantly. It amazes me how much time, energy, work, and skill people have put into modding. And I'm glad for it. As a strict consumer, do I want to have to pay money for something cool I see and want? No, who does? Do I think people should be compensated for their work if they so choose to? Yes, who wouldn't? And if it was good enough, sure, I'd pay for a few if the prices were fair. I'd decide whether they were or not for myself.
Many people here are throwing gentle insults at each other in the form of calling people entitled hypocrites. Much of the time, both these words are being used incorrectly. Hypocrites means saying you have convictions but you actually don't, or saying something and then doing the opposite. Downloading free mods but charging for yours? Not hypocrisy. (That would be pirating paid mods but trying to charge for yours.) Entitled means thinking you deserve special treatment. Consumers who want modding to remain "pure" aren't these things, because they want that for everyone. Modders who would like to be paid are not automatically these things, as they would want these things for everyone, and they'd work in a free market, so the people would choose whether or not they want to pay for their work. If they don't, they'd lower the price, or make it free. Some consumers here, however, seem to believe that modding should always be free, and that those who want payment are greedy.
That's the real hypocrisy.
If someone makes a mod and wants to charge for it, that is their work and their prerogative. If someone doesn't want to pay for it, that is also their prerogative. So far, nobody is entitled, nobody is a hypocrite, and nobody is greedy (unless they're obviously overcharging.)
The second a consumer demands that the mods always be free, that is greed. *On the part of the consumer.* Sorry, but it most likely is. A modder could spend ten thousand hours on something and release it for free while another spends the same amount of time expecting payment. Neither are in the wrong. What's wrong is thinking one get's to dictate how another spends their own time. Paid content providers don't need your input, just like you don't need to buy their mod in the first place. They weren't demanding anything. But the consumers who shouted at them for wanting payment? They were the ones making demands, demands I would argue were born from greed. If not greed, then illogical thinking.
That's not the same as those consumers who are afraid of what paid mods could bring. It's a legitimate fear to have that quality modding might drop off if people don't have access to the utility of an open source environment. Not being able to afford all the mods you'd want is also a good fear to have. I would like the modding scene to remain free, because I like free mods. Tropical Skyrim for 0 dollars? Yes please! (Soolie pls update?) Would I pay for it? Actually, I very well might have thrown a dollar his way if I needed to do so to access it. I doubt Boris would charge $49.99 for his content, (seriously, that's such an exaggeration I'd call it fear mongering if I'd heard it from Fox News.) If that were the case, someone would come along with something similar for cheaper/free, or he'd lower the price himself once sales dropped off.
All of that isn't really my point though. In the end, if you're afraid of where this could go, say so. And if you're going to point out flaws, be sure to point out the right ones. Preferably the one's you aren't guilty of yourselves.
As for the content creators here. Don't worry about the vitriol that the loud vocal minority are throwing your way. You all have many more silent supporters (or filthy neutrals,) who actually know how to keep a level head, even if we disagree with you. I don't think you're greedy, I don't think you're hypocrites, I don't think you're entitled. The only thing I think you should do is update the Tropical Overhaul Mod.
I mean, uh. Keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That one.KChan wrote: Alright, a lot of people are missing some important pieces of this puzzle. We're all getting worked up over our various perspectives and conflicting ideas of what's right or wrong as far as modding is concerned, but most people aren't really stopping to think about each other.
Forget the trolls, forget the people that have unfair expectations or feel that they're deserving of everything you've got and want to have it for free.
What happened to our community? The very fact we're sitting here fuming, arguing and getting upset about this situation should very clearly demonstrate that the whole thing was/is/will be a farce. The mere presence of this system ignited a spark that burnt lines between us and separated us.
People are more than owed something in gratitude for their work, but to what extent? What's worth our money? Is what you made really worth so much? At the same time, for the other side, do you really feel that something they made is worth so little?
Those questions underlie a core problem with the idea of monetizing mods. Who's to say what you made is really worth what you want for it? Yeah, sure, Falskaar would be more than worth the cost of a hamburger, but I can't compare the cost of my next meal to the value of a digital sword that someone threw together just because they can make a few dollars off of it.
I understand that we could all very well be living under hardship, and that this modding could give you that little extra that could let you eat decent food or pay for a tank of gas. If what you made is of a sufficient quality that I feel you deserve it, I'm more than willing to drop $20 on you as a way of saying "thank you." I didn't even realize it was an OPTION until there was a mention of it in the news, and I'm sure many others didn't realize it either.
However, we're all getting caught up in the stress and the drama, and it's keeping us from remembering some of the more important people.
I guarantee you that the people so vocal in complaining in either direction aren't the ones that should be viewed as important. The vitriol spewed back and forth proves that they aren't worth a second of our attention. The ones who are important, the ones sitting back and watching what we all love burn, are often the ones who are silent during all of this.
Can you honestly say that there are none who truly appreciate what you do, or what you've done? Do you honestly feel that way? I'll say that, without all of you, Skyrim would be nothing to me. So, why do you forget those of us who really care, when faced with such criticism? I'm sure many of the people who download these mods, enjoy playing these mods, and subscribe to these mods really do appreciate what you've done.
In the end, both sides really do seem to be missing the point in all this. I would love to see you all compensated, but this isn't the way to do it. I'd have no problem paying for some of these mods, but not like this. The flaws with this system are too obvious, and the outcry that has resulted should prove that without my barely coherent rambling.Seren4XX wrote: I think Vesuvius, Lateraliss, and KChan make some very good points about this whole system. I especially like KChan's observant opinion, but I lean mostly towards the anti-paywall points the former two have given.
Modder here, and not for paid mods any time soon. Maybe with a more honest, better-moderated system. But out of the blue like this with so many negatives as opposed to before it couldn't work. I think Beth/Valve could start off with better communication towards the modding community itself if they'll remain hellbent on getting this system out there.Xenoshi wrote: Writers of fanfiction -do- get to sell their work. This is a fallacious stance to take.
"Welcome to Kindle Worlds, a place for you to publish fan fiction inspired by popular books, shows, movies, comics, music, and games. With Kindle Worlds, you can write new stories based on featured Worlds, engage an audience of readers, and earn royalties. Amazon Publishing has secured licenses from Warner Bros. Television Group's Alloy Entertainment for Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, and The Vampire Diaries; Valiant Entertainment for Archer & Armstrong, Bloodshot, Harbinger, Shadowman, and X-O Manowar; Hugh Howey's Silo Saga; Barry Eisler's John Rain novels; Blake Crouch's Wayward Pines series; and The Foreworld Saga by Neal Stephenson, Greg Bear, Mark Teppo, Eric Bear, Joseph Brassey, Nicole Galland, and Cooper Moo. Licenses for more Worlds are on the way. "Reddome666 wrote: I can't speak for the community, but for me the greatest fear i had with this whole debackel was the aftereffects it could have. How long before all games have this feature, how long before the devs/valve takes 90%? how long before there's an mandatory price for all workshop items? How long before free mods on free sites get taken down under copyright strikes? I dont think that anyone wants mods to turn into DLC without quality control and if its anyone that can make that happen, its Valve.
And... you're right it sucks that modders can't make any money apart from the rare donation. But i assure you, if youtubers started charging for viewing their videos, they would be out of a job.Sein_Schatten wrote: You think this won't come to pass? A-Net is making globs of money with their Black Lion Trading Company (you can buy stuff for small change). ;) They are at 300+ employees IIRC. Be assured this was a testing ground. Feedback was given and the next iteration won't cause such a storm. ;)Arlen1000 wrote: No - it was not as clear cut as you make it out to be. There were many different layers to this debacle. First and foremost was that the skyrim modding community was already solidly established to the point where code,resources etc etc were shared out freely to the point that almost every major mod had dependencies on others work. secondly, while I have absolutely no issue with a creator being compensated for their work, the split was atrociously unfair and the argument that "25% is better than 0%" holds absolutely no water as what you would be the precursor for is exclusivity of mods to one hosting site for a price. Basically selling your soul for a meager 25 cents on the dollar to the detriment of everyone. If this endeavor actually worked then it would spell the end of free sharing of resources and codes, the death of sites like Nexus, and the empowering of Bethesda to make broken games and still profit offf the player/mod base with no cost to them.foster xbl wrote: So again I have to ask.... How is it your place to define to me what is a fair spilt on my efforts? ( and of course I don't mean you specifically, I speaking in general)
This is a ridiculous cop out IMO, if I agree to those terms, in advance before posting content, how am I being robbed?
As I asked before, do these people using this excuse apply it everywhere else in their life?
Guess I shouldn't buy Skyrim in the first place because the actual people who designed it didn't recieve 100% of its profits, right?
Do these same people actually think the real designers of Skyrim;
The guys making the models, textures, script, source, sound, lighting, even menus were paid anywhere close to 25% of the games actual sales?sunshinenbrick wrote: No but they probably get health care and a pension plan.Fowldragon wrote: Foster,
Paid mods for Skyrim will not work because a DECADE of modders who posted their various ideas and creations led to others who took those creative journeys even further...Invariably this community effort was freely given as you point out 1 donation out of 100k downloads ...nobody was thinking that great amounts of money would be made by anyone. VALVE flipped the script and this entire dynamic will be forever changed.
NTT is one of my favorite mods but it was influenced by other work. So at the end of the day, it isn't that you don't deserve something...the problem is there doesn't seem to be a FAIR solution to WHO deserves what. and It ultimately bacame apparent to Valve Bethesda that Pay-toPlay and SKYRIM CAN'T work
I think it is inevitable that Pay mods will come...that Game developers will not have to delay releases a year, 2...3 . They will simply open it to modders and because there isn't a DECADE of potential challenges by other modders to contend with, the System will flow as they mistakenly envisioned it should have with Skyrim.dasgones wrote: Don't take this whole event so hard. Looking at MannyGT's post earlier, about the ratio of downloads to endorsements, The people that are endorsing are the real community. to add more, being a freeloader, i supported free mods. but I support your right to feel like you deserve some compensation and I do agree with you to a level. now, realistically, consumers like to save money, and the moochers (like myself), bought the game in large for the game itself, and then for the mods. After I found how awesome the mods are, I really want the hours worth of user generated content that comes for free with the game. This whole week has raised my awareness of how much modders put into making them. Realisticly, they deserve compensation and I will love to help now that i'm aware. however the push was made too fast without proper notice. in comparison this is still the amateur league of game-developing. When the money gets involved we go pro. And in pro we start to play by bigger rules, and I honestly think nobody knows what those rules will be as of yet. I have no clue. I don't think anyone really knows because they really haven't been made, but the way it was implemented and the lack of transparency was like drafting a rec league teen into the Major leagues without telling him the fine print. That is honestly where complications and real problems occur. even Bethesda said they were experimenting with large details in their blog. the skyrim community was too well developed and too large to change 4 years of growth in a week with less than a month's partial-notice.Fowldragon wrote: I just recalled your release of recurve bows on STEAM..You explained in your description and then REPEATEDLY in your comments that the mod required DB and NTT(master)...people continued to whine that they couldn't afford a DLC and a NEXUS membership. You were quite pointed in you assurance that not only was NEXUS... FREE...but that you yourself had downloaded literally a Terabyte of content and NEVER PAID A DIME.CyniclyPink wrote: Very well said.foster xbl wrote: yes you are correct
I make no attempt to hide that fact...what's your point?
Clearly you haven't actually read any of my posts here, this isn't about making free mods paid. This is about giving authors the option to make paid mods.
I never paid for a mod, does this mean I never would?
I would gladly pay for any mod I wanted, unlike some people, I understand the concept.
If something is available....and I want it....I'm fine with paying for it.
you ever listen to the radio......does that mean you'd never buy a cd/mp3?
And lastly....read the post from steam again.....I said I never paid the nexus a dime for membership.
But hey who needs facts ? That sounded badass when you stomped in here!Fowldragon wrote: Fair point,
Many people were against Valve's action and posted continuously to oppose it..myself included. Does that mean i am against Modders getting paid? Does it mean I was comfortable with the way others have vilified those who who were In favor of it and most specifically the Modders? Is every Premium member exempt from criticism because they paid for membership when they needn't have?. Supporters? is it only the FREE members of NEXUS you blame here? and One last do you believe that 1200-1400 posts on two separate blog entries is a true representation of the attitude of ALL Nexus members.
It amazes me that modders like you have somehow within the last 72 hrs, come to an Epiphany that people LIKE FREE stuff, and often people are jerks when the free stuff is being taken away..x9fallen wrote: The program was a terrible solution. Valve would only seek to increase their take over time. Getting in on a 25% stake just to have something would compromise your hope to ever get properly compensated for work.
It also wasn't feasible due to the way many mods interconnect with others(I think Valve and Bethesda really didn't understand how this worked).
Personally, I don't think we're back to square one. This has raised some very good points about mod authors getting compensated for their work. I know I've seen quite a few pledges from folks in comments to make a greater effort to donate to their favorite mod authors.
I know you're mad and are probably seeing the negative more (because that is how humans work), but from my perspective I saw quite a bit of support for modders. Especially on YouTube where people like TotalBiscuit, Boogie2988, Gopher, Brodual, etc. discussed the issues in a fairly balanced way.
However, the main issue is that Valve and Bethesda were trying to steam roll modders with the pipe dream of being able to make a living off modding. Have you done the math on how much you would have to sell to make a living off of their pathetic 25%? And that's 25% that taxes still have to come out of. Consider the $10k Valve cited as being spent on paid mods. That is $2,500 to modders. Take into consideration some countries where the tax rates on online self-employed work is monstrous (ie Norway, Sweden) and you're left with very little.
I can't speak for modders, as I'm not one. But I would not be happy if my donations to modders went through Valve and Bethesda. At least with their 75% grab.
If Valve/Bethesda can re-work the deal to take a small (say 25% split amongst them) cut on donations to modders, then I think it could go forward.
I don't think I'm currently using any of your mods. I would deactivate them out of respect for your decision. I know I have in the past though (and wish I could make a few work better with the mods I am using(not your issue)) , and I know I haven't donated to you yet. As a small token of what I think the majority of the long-term community thinks of modders, I shall make one today.sunshinenbrick wrote: I think this is all ultimately Bethesda's decision to make. Nexus are kinda victims of their own success.skibadaa wrote: @phantompally76
Checked your profile bro, and you have exactly ZERO files uploaded. Because your talking like your some sort of "passionate" mod author, but it appears you are actually an entitled moron who doesnt know what hes talking about. Silly me though, you probably have a Moddb page with all your super mods that you have put hundreds of hours into all for the pleasure of your users yes? Not like all these other "Greedy" people right? Nope? YEAH, DIDN'T THINK SO.WightMage wrote: Well said.Fowldragon wrote: DUDE!! Who are you Talking to?x9fallen wrote: @ skibadaa
Quote from earlier in the thread:
"My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more. "foster xbl wrote: @skibadaa
you are correct I've never contributed any mods to the nexus
I am not a "passionate" mod authorTyphoon Omi wrote: While I'm not against mod authors making a profit, I find:
-Sold mods need to be held to a MUCH higher standard than free mods (professional vs amateur work), which is something I was already seeing an issue with in the 4 days the workshop supported this model. Bluntly, a lot of modders who would sell their mods on there wouldn't do well with customer support or quality control. All it would take is a mega mod release to make a lot of the "weapon packs" and single outfit mod releases become invalidated.
-If you're going to retaliate against the community at large to spite the vocal minority claiming you don't deserve paid by pulling your mods from free sites, I'm afraid you're validating their point, and I'm not sorry to see you go. It may be thankless and rude of people to insist they deserve your work for free, but it's jaded and silly to insist on getting paid for your work in a fan-based capacity at the first opportunity presented even when it's not necessarily advantageous to all parties - or you'll take your toys and go home.
I'd love to see a platform in the future support modders beyond donations, culling submissions to only accept premium, almost expansion-pack-level works and making those talented and resourceful enough to succeed in that department a decent reward. But all I'm seeing here is a lot of scorn and opportunism from individuals who were far too invested into a fairly dubious business model, and didn't care about the repercussions of said model because they might make a paltry sum in the wash.
As a past mod developer and as a faithful player of the Elder Scrolls series, I can't say I'm sorry to see mod creators with this mentality go. People may not be grateful enough for your work, but this mentality perpetuates the most toxic element of the modding community that's been there for years - "Where's my credit? Where's my reward? Where's my reputation?"
Those should be byproducts of works like this, not your sole reason for doing them.forshea7432 wrote: Here! Here! Well put. I use free code and software whenever and wherever it can be found. When I use something "free" that becomes a necessity in my online life, I donate. If and when it comes down to forcing my donation for shared programs and code through paid subscriptions, I have no problem sending that labor of love back to its owner. I was looking for free when I found it. A forced pay system would require a trial period to exist so I can send it back to the sewers from whence it came, if need be. Compensated is a word that it is later attached to "certified" masters to ensure quality control on a paid system which would be the death of real, passionate modders.freedom613 wrote: Do people really think the only reason people didn't like this update was because it would cost us money?forshea7432 wrote: Holy crap! Remove them and go away. Enough of the caterwauling. If you want compensation, then sell your freaking mods on your own and take 100 percent of your profits, less administration and fees, and have a freaking holiday on the community you hate so much. CHILLAX!yasha_boy277 wrote: I don't care foster. I keep seeing you on the site, and keep thinking you need to stop talking.phantompally76 wrote: skibada, or whatever wrote:
"@phantompally76
Checked your profile bro, and you have exactly ZERO files uploaded. Because your talking like your some sort of "passionate" mod author, but it appears you are actually an entitled moron who doesnt know what hes talking about. Silly me though, you probably have a Moddb page with all your super mods that you have put hundreds of hours into all for the pleasure of your users yes? Not like all these other "Greedy" people right? Nope? YEAH, DIDN'T THINK SO."
I've certainly put more hours playtesting and providing feedback for mods than you have learning the difference between "you're" and "your".
Being a mod author has no bearing in whether I'm "qualified" to call out greedy, self-entitled, whiny authors for expecting me to pay their bills.
Like Gopher said, it's a question of value. I wouldn't pay one red cent for YOUR mod. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would. Why would you expect me or anyone else to pay for that? Just because you worked on it for four weeks? Just because you think it's the best mod that's ever been created? That's up to the players to decide. And guess what? The players (along with the majority of existing mod authors) HAVE decided.
If you're so hard up for cash that you're going to have a meltdown because the world isn't going to pay you to play video games, then you need to put down the bong, go take a bath, go out and put in applications for a REAL JOB. I'd be happy to help you with a resume, and just like my role in fleshing out bugs in player mods, I can help you flesh out all the spelling mistakes you'll make.
I don't owe you a living. I don't owe you anything.
If you don't like that, then PLEASE....just stop making mods. Let people who aren't greedy, self-entitled whiners continue to do what they were doing and enjoying just fine before you poked your meddling nose in where it wasn't wanted or needed.stuff444 wrote: All this fighting, with out realizing who and what put us in this situation. Stupid people.phantompally76 wrote: ATTENTION MOD AUTHORS
I don't want any of you to think I don't appreciate your talents and your efforts. I do. You help make the modding community what it is (was). No one is denying the impact of your contributions to modding. Thank you.
That said...my appreciation and thanks is all you're going to get from me. And you'd damned well better be glad you have even that, and that's all you should bloody well expect....from ANYONE. You are GROSSLY overvaluing what you do.
If endorsements, a word of thanks and appreciation and gratitude isn't enough for you.....then frankly, I don't care whether you make mods or not. NO mod is required to play Skyrim. I've said this a lot this week, and I'll keep saying it; Skyrim was Game of the Year on THREE DIFFERENT PLATFORMS, two of which don't even support modding. Skryim doesn't need mods to be an awesome game. Mods are great. Mods are fun. Mods are appreciated. But we've already paid for Skyrim. We're not paying for amateur alterations to data files.
Bottom line, if you're going to leave the community and stop making mods because we won't pay you to make them, then FINE. Good riddance to bad rubbish. There will be PLENTY of mod authors left to fill in the gaps you leave.
Your issues with entitlement and compensation are not my concern. This is not an ungrateful stance. It's common sense. Something many of you lack in spades.
If you don't want me using your mods because I won't pay for them, you have the tools on this site to ensure that becomes a reality, and you have all the discretion in the world to block any user on here. PLEASE...if that will make you happy, then do it. Because as best as I can tell, to date absolutely nothing makes you happy. Believe me, I've blocked several of you already, so I'll never have to look at mods from spoiled brats who think the world owes them a living ever again.
And to those mod authors who have maintained from the beginning that modding is a hobby that shouldn't be monetized; you also have my thanks, my appreciation, and my gratitude. And for what it's worth, you also have my respect. Now, I realize my respect won't pay your bills or put food on the table. But you don't expect it to. And THAT....is why you have my respect.
#basiccommonsensefoster xbl wrote: @phantompally
Honestly, enough... Really.
I swear every single thing you post oozes
With entitled arrogant utter stupidity
Who here has stated you owe them a living?
You've repeated posted this nonsense statement, who exactly are
You addressing it to? Me, as the OP?
I work full time at my own business, I don't need
You to earn me a living,... As I'm sure no-one else here does either
No one asked you to owe them... No one even asked you to by the mods
I didn't even see anyone ask you for your respect.
You've missed the whole point of this post, and instead jump on some
High horse pissing match.
You repeated told authors you're glad to see them go, and we don't need you.
Wake up .... You're not impressing or intimidating anyone. And at this point you're not even
Contributing to the discussion anymore.
Please please tell me I'm on that block list you were just preaching about.Riprock wrote: I sincerely hope you are content doing what you like to do- modding. But could you agree that what's making you have a level of discontent is not a lack of recompense, it's how you now view the community you mod for?shinkicker404 wrote: Does no one here use Patreon? If put a link on your mod page (that people can actually see) have a good pitch and put out good consistent content people will subscribe to you. It works incredibly well (go look at all the minecraft modders that do it) and you won't lose a single cent to those that do not deserve it.phantompally76 wrote: fosterxbl, rest assured, you are. Feel free to do the same. A fruitless gesture, because I have zero interest in any of your mods, but if it will make you feel better, by all means, knock yourself out.
Just know this. I can sit and argue on the internet just as long as you can. That doesn't change the fact that paid modding was shot down. Not just by the nexus modding community. But by the ENTIRE modding community.
And once again, to quote Benjamin Franklin....."Deal with it".
I have nothing more to say to you spoiled little brats, except this. Learn to type. It will go far in assisting you in being taken more seriously. Because, truthfully, for all I know, and as best I can tell, I'm arguing with a bunch of 14 year-old kids pretending to be adults, with no tangible or discernible argument other than "I DIDN'T GET MY WAY, WHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!"
Welcome to the real world, kids.
It's great that you give mod authors endorsements and thanks for their work. But for some, that's not enough, and that's perfectly okay. They don't owe you their thanks for your thanks. You don't owe them any money you aren't willing to pay, and they don't owe you a mod they feel you haven't earned access to yourself. You think mod authors are overestimating themselves? I think you're the one doing that. They don't need your endorsement, they don't need your download, there are tons of other people who are nicer than you who will provide those things, and many of them would be willing to pay a fair price. Just look at the armor mods that sold about 4000 times in the week they were up on the paid workshop. Hell, look at TF2.
The "entire" modding community was actually rather divided, even if the free side outnumbered the pay side. Mostly, it was just people unhappy with the money split that caused the change. If the paid mods won out and you left? There would be someone here saying "good riddance to bad rubbish" to you. They'd call you greedy, saying you just want everything for free. They'd call you entitled, (even if nobody has used that word correctly so far.) In reality, we're all just different people with different viewpoints. Both sides have fair points.
Skyrim is a great game made even greater by the mods we've all seen here. Whether or not it was game of the year without mods doesn't mean those mods are worthless. The game would not have sold as many PC copies without the work released by modders. I think you might have said this yourself, but many other people have pointed this out.
Many mods are very much worth a lot, and the quality I've seen from some are quite deserving of cold hard cash payment. (The only reason it's never happened is the Skyrim EULA.) From the scripting and voice work of iNPC, to the asset quality of Immersive Armors, to the bug fixes of the unofficial patches, to Boris and SKSE and SkyUI, some people who actually get paid in the game industry have done less work. The fact these mods are free is great for many of us, this I can agree with. But these works are not "amateur." They're far from it.
Many of the things you have refuted so far haven't been things I've actually heard from the other side. Nobody was going to leave because they weren't getting paid, it was the vitriol filled backlash that caused many to hide their mods. Nobody thinks you should be forced to pay for all mods, (the door's over there if you can't pay for theirs.) If you want to argue, you can really say anything you want, but I'd recommend a civil discussion of points actually made over the Fox News-esque talking point shout matches I've seen so far.
If that's not something you want to/can do, (and trust me, many on my side can't either,) then I agree with you on another thing. Neither of us are required to deal with each other. Just know that as far as common sense is concerned in terms of the many people who disagree with your stance, the common denominator is you. -
In response to post #24778264. #24780889 is also a reply to the same post.Those entitled stoners, no matter how high they may be, do not and will never owe you anything for free either.Harbringe wrote:phantompally76 wrote: No one is forcing you to read anything I type.
If it's getting so tiresome, then stop reading it.
Is such a concept REALLY that hard for you to comprehend?
And, once again....it's "you're", not "your". That almost annoys me as much as entitled stoners who think I owe them a living.
Almost. -
In response to post #24774004. #24775424, #24777064, #24777154, #24777539, #24782864, #24782899 are all replies on the same post.It really depends on who taunted first. Was the taunting on part of the SkyUI team in response to those who showed hate and vitriol first? Neither side is completely guilty or innocent here. And regardless, there is this thing called forgiveness. People can, and do, learn and grow.Lateraliss wrote:HadToRegister wrote: I tell you, even BETHESDA should be Endorsing SKYUI, because it accomplished what they couldn't, the team actually should've been paid BY Bethesda for doing Subcontract work them
This is how a portfolio is built, (one of the many reasons for modding)Brasscatcher wrote: @Hadto I know, right? With all the extra sales and increased longevity, There's a handful of core mod developments that definitely should have gotten contract checks from bethsoft.sunshinenbrick wrote: @Hadtoregister
Completely agree!phantompally76 wrote: I'll pass.
Thoughts on greed and/or entitlement aside, that dev team was extremely arrogant, condescending and demeaning towards users AND authors who had concerns about selling SKYUI. They were literally taunting individuals who disagreed with their decision.
No, they can take SKYUI 5.0, and they can shove it up their MCM menu.Ryker61 wrote: That was uncalled for Phantom. Really uncalled for.
You are SOL when mods you use need to be upgraded and they require SkyUI ver5.0.Vesuvius1745 wrote: I don't agree with the way he expresses it, but I understand Phantom's frustration, and he has valid points.
As for donating, I think I will. Thanks for the info. -
In response to post #24775839. #24779609, #24780114 are all replies on the same post.Thing is, many things, free or not, have been used by other people to create something they will charge for. Unity? Check. Unreal Engine? Check. GIMP? Check. Open Office? Check. C++? Check. JAVA? Check.chidosity wrote:bullpcp wrote: Your stated evolution of modding is true of all IP since before recorded history. Modding is not special in this regard. Asking for money is not bare naked theft. You can't steal free IP. The "community" doesn't own it. There is no "grand bargain". If someone freely utilizes resources for profit against the will of it's owners that would be a different situation. The deeper issue is that you seem to think by dent of you being a member of a "community" that you should have some say in how others disseminate what they actually own. You seem to believe in of some sort of implied collective ownership of mods by some ill defined "community" that should have the right to forbid others from charging for their work. You honestly don't know what the mod community would look like if modders could charge for mods 20 years ago. No one does. It could very well have resulted in a robust multi tiered free/paid community were the best are able to charge a for their work and make a living, some would be able to supplement, and the rest could do it out of love. You do seem to believe you should be able to deny others the option to charge for their mods and be able to force others to abide by your personal beliefs.UberSmaug wrote: The entirety of Human Civilization and beyond is built on the backs of those who came before. No man and no thing is an island unto themselves. You say you pioneered modding, that may be true, but you stood on the backs of those who pioneered gaming in the first place, who in turn stood on the backs of those who pioneered computers, who stood on the backs of those who pioneered the use of fire, who stood on the backs of nature itself. If your argument were held as true, no one has the right to charge for anything, not mods, not games, not iPhone apps, not food. We should all be sacrificial animals. We all exist simply to serve others. A complete communal utopia where there are no possession, no rights, and no self. Certainly some do believe that. Its called Altruism.
It's a sad fact of life that you don't get to choose how other people use your work, at least unless you hit them with a contract stating specifics first thing. Photoshop was for editing photos, and it evolved to do so to the point you could turn a turd into Justin Beiber. TNT/dynamite was a mining tool, eventually used for warfare. SFM was released so people could have a Garry's Mod to make cool/silly animations, and yet people love to make porn with it.
Ultimately, the people who get to decide whether or not others can charge for mods are not the modding community. They are Besthesda. They are the original creators of anything Skyrim, and with their grace you have been allowed to make things, from scratch or not, meant for editing Skyrim. The only thing you get to decide is whether or not you allow other people to use your tools to create something they can charge for, and arguably only if you made this statement from the get go.
I get the fear that if everyone charged for their mods, this place would be a lot more quiet and a lot less awesome. I get it. But I doubt it would ever get that one sided. There would still be free mods, and there would also be paid mods. And if either wanted to use each other's work, they had but to ask and negotiate. This was not a war until many of us turned on each other with illogical hatred over some half thought ideal. And it's a war we've all lost whether we realize it yet or not.
Hopefully, regardless of the casualties, it was for the best in the end. I can't say, but I hope this is the best path. -
In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579, #24742634, #24742744, #24742799, #24742804, #24742964, #24743039, #24743319, #24743439, #24743614, #24743699, #24743779, #24743799, #24743809, #24743899, #24743969, #24744239, #24744704 are all replies on the same post.I'll start off by saying I am not a content creator, not a modder, not an uploader. The most I've ever done was make UT2k4 maps, and I only released those among friends. I've always wanted to try modding Skyrim, but I've never had the time.foster xbl wrote:phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?
Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.foster xbl wrote: because...... I guessOiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.
The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.
The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?
Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"
I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.
By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.
We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"
This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they shouldKorodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.
Before this all happened of course :P
EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.
No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......
I don't owe you anything.
And you don't owe me anything.
That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.
I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.
I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic
But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.
The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.
Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.
You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).
Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic
IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.
It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."
People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.
Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.
Bye I guess.
-nlm (-.-) mln-foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."
And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?
Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster
Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.
@ Korodic
apologiesphantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.
If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.
I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.
And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.
so get. off. your. high. horse.foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas
None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theresWarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.
Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.
Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.
That is my take on it, hate me if you will.Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.
From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.
A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.
This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much tojet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?jfisha wrote: Korodic,
Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?
Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.
I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.
Calm down, man, for the love of Godphantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas
None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"
I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.
But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.
I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.
And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.
But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.
But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.
Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl
I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?
You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?
A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).
I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."
You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.
Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.
There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.
While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.
There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.
I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.
When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.
Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5
This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.
I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.
But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."
this says it all.WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorryfftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.
I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.
Calm down, man, for the love of God"
I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.
IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.OiramX5 wrote: Foster
Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.
I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.
I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.
RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.
Don't cross my people.phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.
Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.
We done?foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "
I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlashKorodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?
On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.
Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."
Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.
But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:
By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5
My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.Ventry wrote: @foster xbl
Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?
If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.
Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:
By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."
Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.
The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.
I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.
Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"
the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"
It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745
What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.
If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.
I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.
I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.
Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step
Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.
Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again
second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.
700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kitphantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?
NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.
You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.
Am I getting through to you at all?Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."
Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.Ventry wrote: @foster
and I applaud you.
do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.
Can you see the damage it did?WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.
Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.
This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76
you got through to me with your very first post trust me
now let me try one last time to get through to you.
The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said
File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods
Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.OiramX5 wrote: Foster
Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)
Kodoric
Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.
But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "
I agree 100%.
I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."
Amen.Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.
Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.jfisha wrote: Foster
File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Ummm... they made the game?
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods
Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.
Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :PVesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.
So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:
Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.
If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.foster xbl wrote: @jfisha
I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profitsanonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.
No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.
Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".
The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.
Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".
Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.
That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.
Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?
Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.
For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.
Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.
If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.
And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.
Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.
Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.
Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.
The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.
Free modding 4-ever.WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed
Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.
In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(EnaiSiaion wrote: When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.
Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.Lateraliss wrote: Warfighter, it's already been like that for years. There are modders who removed their mods from Nexus because of conflicts with the community. There have been modders that removed their mods from Nexus because people weren't worshiping them enough. It's an endless cycle. The point is there is always someone else that comes along and makes a great mod that replaces what we lost.
My belief if once a person decides that money is more important than the hobby, they focus instead on what can make them the most money instead of what would make the best quality, and that's what will end up destroying the modding community. Hundreds of low quality paid mods coming out like an assembly line. Why work on one huge mod that will get you 5 bucks when you can create 100 retextures in the same amount of time and sell them for 99 cents each.Vesuvius1745 wrote: It looks like you don't understand my position, and I don't understand yours, so I will bow out of this discussion as I don't think anything productive will come out of it.
I will parrot the sentiment of another poster, that at least one good thing will come out of this mess: it will cull the modding community of certain types of individuals. And as history has shown, when one modder leaves, it doesn't take long for another to take their place.
Having said that, you should be thanked for what you have given to the community thus far, and I wish you well in your future endeavors.jfisha wrote: @foster xbl
I guess that's where we're getting off track then. You're allowed to profit with your mod, I don't care.
However, I think you're complaining about this on the wrong forum. Steam is where all the death threats and really bad vitriol was coming from. Sure, there's been some here but for the most part, it's been cordial. Hell, look at Chesko's Frostfall comments. It's an over whelming amount of support.
What's confusing me is why are you on a site that has repeatedly stated it will never charge for mods and is committed to making sure the mods here remain free, complaining about why you can't charge for mods? We're all friends here and all, but I just don't get it. Go after those little bastards on SteamInky84 wrote: i dont know about the other people but jfisha is right.. i have no problem paying or donating to YOU but the way valve and beth set it up. you would prolly not see a dime. 25% is outrageous. plus the fact that your mods would just end up on pirates bay makes it more likely. i think that if nexus made a wallet similar to steam. (reason for this is cause i have a life too and i cant go to my paypal everytime and wonder/be worried if i can donate every time i like a mod.) that said.. i also think that donate button should also be in a better place both on nexus and steam. that way when they see it..it gives them a sense of morality.
just a thought =)sunshinenbrick wrote: Developers will sell just the sdk on its own before long then say, make your your own goddam games! Ha :)foster xbl wrote: @jfisha
I'm going after no-one.
I'm here because this is where I post my content
(I have some items on steam, but always with a direct link to the updated version here on the nexus, and even then only like 11 of my mods were posted there)
I couldn't care less about the children on the steam community,
This is where a posted my work
This is where I read the uproar over paid mods
This is where I read the attacks on authors
This is where I read the praise for the program being shut down
This is where I wanted to post my viewssunshinenbrick wrote: There has been a lot of praise for author's as well.
EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the other parts of the community have been more or less forgotten about. Debugging, Moderating, Testing, Troubleshooting, Programming, 3d Modelling, Boris (he is in a class of his own), All the other tool makers and "external" content creators that contribute their work.
Kudos to you all.jfisha wrote: @foster xbl
I'm not trying to shew you away. I guess we're just reading different mod authors comments.
This was a small battle between two ways of thinking. Your side lost, for now, but what I'm just trying to reiterate to you is that some of us... scratch, that; a lot of us understand perfectly well what you want and while we disagree, I can't hold it against you. Making money doing something you like? That's the f*#@in dream!
Here's an idea; why don't we just discuss ways where perhaps we can meet in the middle?Lordkabal26 wrote: Bethesda should man up and allow Mod Creators to setup Patreon pages. Currently Bethesda doesn't allow those sorts of donation pages where the donation page is for the mod or mod team they only allow personal donations.sunshinenbrick wrote: Such a key point, totally agree!!theblueshark wrote:
funny thing is, I voted against the paid mod because valve is gets a bigger share than the modder.. just saying...CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: The paid model was unsuccessful. You may have made some awesome mods but if people don't want to pay for them, that isn't bullying, abuse or trolling. That's the market at work.
...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product.digitaltrucker wrote: I've said it before and I'll sat it again:
All Bethesda would have had to do to begin with was remove the 'mods must be free' clause from the CK. It would have changed absolutely NOTHING for them, and the ball would be squarely in our court. I have confidence the market would sort it out, most likely by just adding a pay extension to the system already in place.
Utterly simple, and I find it hard to believe that between TWO well established successful companies nobody considered it.YngvieMalmsteen wrote: Korodic, i have 2000 hours playing chivalry medieval warfare, because i enjoy it. i didnt get any money from doing it, but i dont regret it, because i enjoyed doing it. people mod because they enjoy doing it. if you didnt enjoy the 2000 hours you spent in the creation kit like i enjoyed the 2000 hours ive spent in chivalry medieval warfare, you making more money than i have doing it since you got one donation, then why did you do it in the first place if it wasnt to make money?EnaiSiaion wrote: Yes, when you dangle money in front of people and then take it away, they feel they missed out on something.foster xbl wrote: "
...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product. "
Sick of it or not....if you're making money from the videos you create which showcase Skyrim mods....you're making money from Skyrim mods... how is this different?
Anyways, said enough on the matter. The two sides of this debate aren't going to change the other minds.sunshinenbrick wrote: Google are in all sorts of grey area on this with pretty much everything. But they are rich and powerful.hafizlordfeast wrote: You do realize the issue of paid mods are so many? So you are saying that copycat mods deserve to get paid? Do you think mods that are clearly not official DLC's that could broke the game, without Bethesda's support, deserve to be paid? Do you even think buggy mods deserve to be paid?
Donation is the only way to provide the payment gratitude the modders deserve. That's the only creative motivation that he or she will need, for financial reason. You know that YouTube doesn't give you money out of nowhere, right?
If you care enough about the modders to be paid, why don't you give them the money they deserve, because I know not all of us are rich people who can just give people ten dollars on every mod we want to get? I guess you are then? We expect free mods so we get free mods, and you already know the downside of having a mod in the first place, bugs and conflict, and you want us to pay for that?
We won't complain about the paywall if there's no problem to mods in the first place. Why don't you at least THINK before spouting your naive nobility towards all of us. It's not as simple to contribute to modders as if we are rich men. It is Bethesda and Valve responsibility to actually give financial help to them in the first place, not us, and they even get the most cut instead of modders. You think that's fair?
For the love of god, if you want to help them so much, GIVE them money, more money because they deserve it. Are you capable enough to do that or you're just ordering us to do what you want us to do?: Pay them, pay them all. I don't, because I don't have the luxury of giving them monthly salary, they modders know what they are doing is not a job, its a hobby, no matter how hard the hobby is.
If they feel it isn't enough for financial benefits, go find a job, or better yet, go find a job at Bethesda. We don't want to pay for mods because we know the positive and negative of mods, some weights the other. Common sense that should be implemented in your brain before commenting this naivety.
I do, however, download and browse the mods on this site constantly. It amazes me how much time, energy, work, and skill people have put into modding. And I'm glad for it. As a strict consumer, do I want to have to pay money for something cool I see and want? No, who does? Do I think people should be compensated for their work if they so choose to? Yes, who wouldn't? And if it was good enough, sure, I'd pay for a few if the prices were fair. I'd decide whether they were or not for myself.
Many people here are throwing gentle insults at each other in the form of calling people entitled hypocrites. Much of the time, both these words are being used incorrectly. Hypocrites means saying you have convictions but you actually don't, or saying something and then doing the opposite. Downloading free mods but charging for yours? Not hypocrisy. (That would be pirating paid mods but trying to charge for yours.) Entitled means thinking you deserve special treatment. Consumers who want modding to remain "pure" aren't these things, because they want that for everyone. Modders who would like to be paid are not automatically these things, as they would want these things for everyone, and they'd work in a free market, so the people would choose whether or not they want to pay for their work. If they don't, they'd lower the price, or make it free. Some consumers here, however, seem to believe that modding should always be free, and that those who want payment are greedy.
That's the real hypocrisy.
If someone makes a mod and wants to charge for it, that is their work and their prerogative. If someone doesn't want to pay for it, that is also their prerogative. So far, nobody is entitled, nobody is a hypocrite, and nobody is greedy (unless they're obviously overcharging.)
The second a consumer demands that the mods always be free, that is greed. *On the part of the consumer.* Sorry, but it most likely is. A modder could spend ten thousand hours on something and release it for free while another spends the same amount of time expecting payment. Neither are in the wrong. What's wrong is thinking one get's to dictate how another spends their own time. Paid content providers don't need your input, just like you don't need to buy their mod in the first place. They weren't demanding anything. But the consumers who shouted at them for wanting payment? They were the ones making demands, demands I would argue were born from greed. If not greed, then illogical thinking.
That's not the same as those consumers who are afraid of what paid mods could bring. It's a legitimate fear to have that quality modding might drop off if people don't have access to the utility of an open source environment. Not being able to afford all the mods you'd want is also a good fear to have. I would like the modding scene to remain free, because I like free mods. Tropical Skyrim for 0 dollars? Yes please! (Soolie pls update?) Would I pay for it? Actually, I very well might have thrown a dollar his way if I needed to do so to access it. I doubt Boris would charge $49.99 for his content, (seriously, that's such an exaggeration I'd call it fear mongering if I'd heard it from Fox News.) If that were the case, someone would come along with something similar for cheaper/free, or he'd lower the price himself once sales dropped off.
All of that isn't really my point though. In the end, if you're afraid of where this could go, say so. And if you're going to point out flaws, be sure to point out the right ones. Preferably the one's you aren't guilty of yourselves.
As for the content creators here. Don't worry about the vitriol that the loud vocal minority are throwing your way. You all have many more silent supporters (or filthy neutrals,) who actually know how to keep a level head, even if we disagree with you. I don't think you're greedy, I don't think you're hypocrites, I don't think you're entitled. The only thing I think you should do is update the Tropical Overhaul Mod.
I mean, uh. Keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That one. -
In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519, #24648809, #24649619, #24650179, #24650239, #24650354, #24651039, #24651229, #24651294, #24651314, #24651324, #24651364, #24651429, #24651469, #24651679, #24651784, #24651844, #24651864, #24651949, #24652074, #24652084, #24652114, #24652274, #24652374, #24652484, #24652614, #24652634, #24652709, #24652984, #24652989, #24653374, #24654079, #24654169, #24654569, #24654739, #24654814, #24654864, #24654924, #24654954, #24655019, #24655324, #24655564, #24655599, #24655739, #24656204, #24656864, #24657599, #24657739, #24657834, #24658089, #24658219, #24658309, #24658354, #24658469 are all replies on the same post.@PsijonicaPsijonica wrote:SchwererGustav wrote: This post wwll be deleted in...3...2...1...
You will see ;)bigdeano89 wrote: Way to sound like an entitled 12 year old man. Dark0ne has been honest from the start. Good luck trying to find another site btw, all the others are either gone or ALSO took the service provider option. That includes AFKmods etc.
Dark0ne is not the only site to do that, so stop making them out to be the bad guys. Nexus has been around for years giving mod authors FREE space for mods big and small.Dark0ne wrote:As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding communityThis post wwll be deleted in...3...2...1...
Why would I delete it? It's a perfect example of the people who don't actually read what I write and, in the process, make themselves look stupid.SchwererGustav wrote: Because 2 of my comments got delleted befor...
The 1st was a bit aggressive the 2nd not at all.rotwhip wrote: ooooh someone is angry.Psijonica wrote: I read what you wrote and I can only giggle that you have lowered yourself to calling me "stupid" LoL
You can fool all the kids here but anyone with real business and life experience sees right through you.
If I am stupid because I don't take your words at face value then so be it... I am a stupid person who drives a Super Snake and I am laughing at how stupid you may think I am.
Basically you are still supporting Pay-for-Mods just that you are calling it by a different name. Many modders like Emma (I guess you think she is stup[id too now eh? Remember her, yoiur old friend who helped you with your uploaded system all thiose years ago?) also believe that this is wrong in every aspect... but I guess we are just stupid.
I can't really tell youwhat I think of you because hey, I'm in an unfair possition where you are able to swing insults but I can't.
Congratulations! *Applause*benissugger wrote: he said you "make yourself[es] look stupid", not "you are stupid".JoeyLock wrote: So basically Psijonica, you're saying "Stop asking me for money! Dark0ne just pay the $500,000 to run this community per year and deal with it!" yes? Think about that statement, Endorsements, Permissions and Donations are the very things that keep this community and these mods afloat, if you want 100% free mods, make them all yourself and pay for the site to upload them on.twhelan wrote: We must excuse those who cannot understand the context of a single sentence.WightMage wrote: What does Emma, creator of Vilja, have anything to do with this?Dark0ne wrote: You started with, in response to my article:As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding community
I've already written:If people are heralding me, specifically, as their champion in the fight against paid modding then they've done that of their own accord, and I certainly haven't agreed to be that champion....Does this sound like a champion of modding being free everywhere? No, it does not. Do not use me as the poster-child for that campaign as I never said I was.
So you either didn't read it, or you read it, and then decided to say I was painting myself as the "saviour of the free modding community" when I've specifically said I neither am or want to have that title. So yes, you look stupid. Even more so, now.HadToRegister wrote:Psijonica
Am I going to close all my account? No, not yet. But as soon as there is an alternative choice you can bet I will choose it.
I'm sure that threatening to close your FREE Nexus account that you pay NOTHING for, has most of the people at The Nexus quaking in their boots.seversky wrote: Psijonica, you are an incredibly spoiled little child. Go away please. Don't come back.phantompally76 wrote: I don't think Psijonica "looks stupid" at all, Dark0ne.
Quite the opposite, actually.
And I also think that YOU are coming out of this looking dishonest, petty, unapologetic, and at the risk of upsetting you (which is not my intention), just a little sociopathic.
You can't shrug or laugh this off. This is a MUCH bigger deal than you're trying to make it out to be, and just because you refuse to admit there is a problem with your lack of disclosure and transparancy....that doesn't make the problem go away.
And like it or not, a LOT of people have a problem with this.Reaper0021 wrote: There is no "Bigger Deal". All of it was blatantly obvious, in the open and known by those of us that bothered to read it. These attacks are starting to get pretty damn pathetic. There was/is no conspiracy nor big deals made that have betrayed anyone.TKHBMVP wrote: From my community experiences in the early 90ies until now on several forums and when usnet newsgroups support forums started remembering from the past, nothing has changed so far with the participants and their communication habbits ;-) It is still the same.
But when I read across all of this thread I'm happy that a lot of people making up their mind on this topic and thinking about the different point of views of the involved people.
Finally this proved that Nexus has a great audience and value modders and members sharing a most valuable content.Psijonica wrote: YaY! You called me stupid twice! HAHAHA ;D The fact that you keep commenting says more than you know. it says that you feel you need to bully me in order to distract people from the real issue whisch is that you are in one hand holding up a protest sign while with the other taking payments from the people you are saying you are protesting against.
I have to laugh at you.But I guess I'm just stupid or maybe that the throngs of people who once used to get mods for free are now much smarter than me now that they will be paying for them eh?
*SIGH* Look at his last words, "That is what I will fight. That is what I will champion against." and tell me that he is not proclaiming himself as the white knight LoL
and to those of you who say he is not making money, please who are you fooling... he is raking it in and he is only here instead of on vacation trying to protect his money.joeriz9 wrote: Keep it up kiddo, Good way to get yourself banned by not reading anything that has actually been said.Reaper0021 wrote: Why are you even posting Psijonica? I mean what's the point you're trying to make beyond just annoying the staff? He was transparent about this whole thing to begin with. There is no hidden agenda. It was publicly posted and I read it before it was brought up by a member who found it the same way I did: Just looked and it was there. It wasn't 'hidden' and wasn't an attempt to be deceptive.locomotive1236 wrote: "YaY! You called me stupid twice! HAHAHA The fact that you keep commenting says more than you know. it says that you feel you need to bully me in order to distract people from the real issue whisch is that you are in one hand holding up a protest sign while with the other taking payments from the people you are saying you are protesting against.
I have to laugh at you.But I guess I'm just stupid or maybe that the throngs of people who once used to get mods for free are now much smarter than me now that they will be paying for them eh?"
If you consider that bullying, I'm not sure what world you live in. As I understand it from his posts, he's staying neutral at the moment because he understands both sides. I also do not see any point of arguing with someone who is incapable of see things from only one perspective and have such a fragile self-esteem.MCato wrote: "As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding community you are not fooling me"
===
Please show me any of your mods, even the smallest. Then I'll take your words seriouslyHadToRegister wrote:Psijonica
YaY! You called me stupid twice!
Actually, no he didn't, what you HAVE done though, is shown that twice now, you lack any reading comprehension skills whatsoever, which also explains why you have the whole Valve/Nexus thing so wrong.
Because you read and then interpret everything the way you WANT it to be, rather than the way it actually IS, facts be damned.SchwererGustav wrote: It's a joke really , anybody with a brain can see were this is going and it is definitely not going to be good for modders who do it for the love of modding and not for the shekkels.
The corps and shareholders will love this news, alot of people (with alot of money) will make a quick buck and leave the modding community in the dirt.
But who are we to judge we don't have a shitload of servers that the community payd for...Reaper0021 wrote: Had is right. Your a stone-headed kid that's got a conspiracy theory to play with and I'll be damned if your immature ass isn't going to play with it. You just refuse to read and comprehend what's written or you see ulterior motives abounding in everything people say and do.sunshinenbrick wrote: I hope I don't regret bringing this point up. We are entitled to opinions are we not? And we are allowed to doubt what people say at face value, are we not? That is part of a community and it does not help to throw insults at one another, even if it's understandable as we all have a lot of passion about modding.gingersnapples wrote: you sir are a clever troll, or wear lead-lined hats on a daily basis. can't decide which.
oh well. time ever flows onward, and this, too, shall pass.ZeroKing wrote: Yeah! Community effort, guys! We get stuff for free, we'll give no support for the effort here, and we demand retribution for what the site owner believes in because he has to pay for the servers..... oh wait.
I forgot about the $500,000 annual server cost that most of us contribute next to nothing for. Yeah, reality sucks, eh?Reaper0021 wrote: Yes your opinions are indeed welcome. This person isn't stating an "Opinion" this person has taken facts, mixed them up into his/her own little theory, and is attacking Dark0ne. Best if you don't get involved in it as you too seem to not know whats going on either. ****I'm giving you Kudos Zero cause I haven't seen you in so long.Psijonica wrote: No reaper he has not been honest at all. When explain your self and leave out certain elements then that is being dishonest.
Let's face it, the reason he is saying is is neutral is because he is afraid to actually state his position. Wishy washy... and because I have an opposite opinion of how he has handled this now everybody trolls me. LoL Like I care. I own my house (paid for) and have a wife who loves me and 3 children that I feed and clothe and I am here with my eldest fighting for what I believe is right.
I believer he has lied, I believe he is not being honest and I don't trust his so called good intentions.
I can not believe for the life of me what is happening and you know what, if this goes through then this whole generation deserves SOPA and all the other corporations to come in take over the internet.
Of course I say that with tongue in cheek but I have been fighting the machine my whole life and I am getting tired... this really makes me not want to care any more and just let the children work it out themselves.
Pay-for-mods is the absolute worst thing that can happen and it is pretty much a done deal.
If Dark0ne want to be the Champion then let him refund all the money he gets from valve directly to the moddders. Lets see if he does that eh?ZeroKing wrote: PhD in biomedical engineering, have a wife and 6 children. Disabled from the waist down, and still work across 17 countries annually.
Doesn't pay Robin's server bills with my personal morals and my credentials, does it?Reaper0021 wrote: "Pay for mods" is a bad idea. I'm 44, own 4 houses (live in one rent the others 3 small houses to help my disability) and have 1 child...no wife. And? The make-up of my family or my residence doesn't validate my words any more than it does yours. He isn't betraying us. It was always there to see...I know I read it. I'm sorry this has all happened to turn this community on it's damned head. I've seen you posting in forums before and you are one smart guy. You really are. I've enjoyed your input in the past and it's hard for me to see you being this willfully stubborn.sunshinenbrick wrote: Ha, thank you... I think :/ I have never considered myself a troll (only learnt what it was a couple of year ago...) being a bit of old fashioned.
I just think it can be unwise to just use the arguement that "it's just the way it is". But I also think there can be constructive ways to talk about this. As in trying to organise a way of reducing this "slippery slope" that has been mentioned a number of times. And I wanted to suggest that getting hissy with each other is not going to help... perhaps that what was predicted to happen??benjaminpen wrote: Are you drunk? No, seriously... Are you? You seem a little incoherent to me.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I see no conflict between the following two statements:
"I WILL NOT fight someone's right to charge for mods on ANOTHER site. It is NOT okay to charge for mods on THIS site."
"I WILL fight anyone who says I don't have the right to NOT CHARGE for mods on MY site."
And no, I don't think that mod authors being able to donate some of the money being made to the Nexus is a conflict either.
edit: He didn't get the money from the modders' cut, he got it from Valve's cut.Reaper0021 wrote: Your right Sunshine maybe that's what I needed to calm down was an impartial 3rd to say something. Yeah I'm going to let this rest for now. Try again tomorrow I think. Peace to you all and Kudos to Sunshinenbrick.HadToRegister wrote:
Psijonica
I own my house (paid for) and have a wife who loves me and 3 children that I feed and clothe and I am here with my eldest fighting for what I believe is right.
Yet here you are, complaining about seeing advertisements on your FREE account.
If you actually HAD all of that stuff, and were mature, you wouldn't need to list ANY of that, as it has NOTHING to do with your conspiracy theory.
Psijonica
If Dark0ne want to be the Champion then let him refund all the money he gets from valve directly to the moddders. Lets see if he does that eh?
Hey, let's see you contribute to the $500,000 annual upkeep for the nexus THAT YOU USE FOR FREE.
You're using a website for FREE and demanding that someone else PAY for something that has already been explained, that all of us adults were able to comprehend quite clearly on our first read-through of Robin's article.
At this point, I can only chalk up your incomprehension of Robin's explanation as, you're either Drunk, or you're now too emotionally invested in this to save face and back out out gracefully by apologizing.
At this point, you're in a hole so deep, and refuse to see it, that if someone threw you a ladder, you'd start digging with it.sunshinenbrick wrote: Thanks :D Yeah I really hope that dialogues between parties can be kept open so that they can mutually benefit each other. I know that sounds a bit soppy but I suppose (more movie taglines coming up) we do need to have some hope here... not easy I know but its that or dispair!Psijonica wrote: Well reaper for one I'm female but in the world we live in everything is fairly androgynous eh?
i am not being stubborn, I am standing up for what I believe in. There is a difference. Dark0ne benefits from Pay-for-Mods. Either way it doesn't hurt him. Right now we are downloading every mod we can because I know that all the mods for Oblivion will soon be pay- for -mod, all the Morrowind mods will be Pay-for-mod...
THIS USED TO BE FREE AND FUN!!!! It will never be fun again, it will just become an expense. Now all these modders are going to cry about SOPA??? hahahaha You deserve SOPA now!monkeyweather wrote: Thanks for keeping this whole thing civil to the best of your abilities, and for keeping everyone in the loop as much as you can.SchwererGustav wrote: well i helped people to get their modded skyrim to run for 2 month in the forum after that i thought i payed back what i downloaded here.
and this is the only website i had my addblocker off, too(you know how every other site makes money).
I'm not rich and Psijonica isn't eather i guess so we take that little fun we have left in our lives,
freedom, creativity and helping other people thats what i thought was this side about, but now they sell out and take that last piece of choice that makes us burst out in anger.. can't you people understand this?
This deal will mark the beginning of the end off modding, the last bastion of freedom that was left...Pestilenz wrote: Yeah the community paid for the servers, by either choosing to get premium either because they had money to spare, wanted to help or wanted the extra features or by "gob beware" using the site and downloading mods, I feel so abused shame one you Dark0ne.sunshinenbrick wrote: I totally understand what you mean by paying for things through other means than money (creativity, support, non-financial contribution) however I do hope that sometimes it is best to take down things you don't agree with from within. This is to say that although I cannot speak for the site owner nor do I know, or ever talked to him, but he has stated his position and we should try give him some benefit of the doubt because there are things that can be safeguarded against.
Suppose time will tell but it is somewhat comforting to know that the players at hand here do see the value of the community here. Admittedly it might be money orientated, however we can have the chance to show them there is more to modding than that. Then maybe they will see that suffocating all aspects of the free community will stifle creativity. I hope. And we can start by using donation systems. But that's money I hear you say??? Yes but it is important HOW you give money and WHO you give it to.HadToRegister wrote:Psijonica
Well reaper for one I'm female but in the world we live in everything is fairly androgynous eh?
I'm glad that you and your wife, and two kids, and your paid for house are happy.
Psijonica
Dark0ne benefits from Pay-for-Mods
HE ONLY BENEFITS.......ONLY, if someone CHECKS THE BOX that says "Send 5% of the earning for this mod to the Nexus", there are also checkboxes to send 5% to the makers of NifSKope and Blender as well.
Why aren't you complaining about those two things possibly getting 5% whenever someone checks the box for them to receive 5% of the income?
If a modder DOESN'T check that box for The NEXUS, or NifSkope etc then the Nexus and NifSkope etc get NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING, is sent to the Nexus, NOTHING....
Do you UNDERSTAND IT YET?
The Nexus isn't getting a cut of any mods being sold on SteamWorks UNLESS THE MOD AUTHOR CHECKS THE BOX to let the Nexus have 5% of the sales as a "Thank You"
Psijonica
THIS USED TO BE FREE AND FUN!!!! It will never be fun again, it will just become an expense.
It's still "Free and Fun" (especially for YOU Ms. "Free Nexus Account" ), however, you're directing your anger at the wrong personTanniss wrote: actually he is getting money from the community unless he is independantly wealthy or paying his creditors with air he gets his money from ad's that we help support by not having ad block on and by the memberships that people pay for as well as donations from the communityTanniss wrote: which can and will be used later on down the road to take away any credibility on darkones part if he decides to stop fence sitting and pick the side of being afraid free modding is going to disappear by saying hey why you bitching now when you had no problem taking donations from our (valves ) cut instead of the modders giving a cut to nexus for this site being such a great place to find tools and free mods
I am surprised that no one sees this because its buying him even if he or us dont think so because at the end of the day if you take money from those who are trying to take and run a monopoly no matter the small % given you are still silently supporting the endeavor they are trying to force down everyone elses throat
and mind you im not being a troll nor am i stupid and if some feel the need to toss insults towards me so be it bottom line is when you take money for something that you think is more than likely going to be inherently wrong that makes your arguments a little less weightyPsijonica wrote: HadToRegister
Yes my wife and I are very happy. It is well known that I am a lesbian. I have never hid from that here or anywhere. Do you have something against the gay and lesbian community?
You keep on trying to goat me with your pathetic attempts in arguing with me but I have been ignoring you. You are a troll and your continued attempts into drawing me into a flame war will fail.
You failed :)Reaper0021 wrote: See you made a good point and did it in such a way that doesn't speak of "Conspiracy Theories" running rampant. No your not stupid at all and you do make good points. The 'other' person on this thread is on an obvious witch hunt. Big difference. I shouldn't have to point that out to you.Psijonica wrote: Thanks monkeyweather, it has not been easy to keep things civil especially when the owner of the site comes and trolls my post effectively giving permission for everybody else to do the same. Shame on him for that.
I read all his posts and his reddits and although he tries to pretend to pin Gabe down on the DRM issue he himself doesn't even make public his own position on Pay-for-Mods.
This is why I don't trust him. I deal with politicians for a living, I am well tuned to the BS station.Reaper0021 wrote: NOBODY cares you are a Lesbian with a chip on her shoulder. Nobody cares about your sexual orientation. Period. None of us. Nobody has said anything except, after you felt the need to back-up your arguments with telling us how you own a home and your kids are responsible and your married and whatnot, all anybody has said was "Good for you and hope your happy. And my religious beliefs fly contrary to your chosen lifestyle...but do you hear me saying anything? No. Good. Nobody is going to be baited into a "Gay and Lesbian" tirade debate with you so you have yet even MORE to gripe about along with what you're already doing.phantompally76 wrote: you're, not your.Reaper0021 wrote: you're, not your.
It's late and i don't care. The point is made but ty anyway.Kusumura wrote:I don't think Psijonica "looks stupid" at all, Dark0ne.
Quite the opposite, actually.
And I also think that YOU are coming out of this looking dishonest, petty, unapologetic, and at the risk of upsetting you (which is not my intention), just a little sociopathic.
You can't shrug or laugh this off. This is a MUCH bigger deal than you're trying to make it out to be, and just because you refuse to admit there is a problem with your lack of disclosure and transparancy....that doesn't make the problem go away.
And like it or not, a LOT of people have a problem with this.
- From phantompally76
Oh, God. Please, let's not have this become #skyrimgate2015...
EDIT: Fixed up the quote.HadToRegister wrote:
Psijonica
Yes my wife and I are very happy. It is well known that I am a lesbian. I have never hid from that here or anywhere. Do you have something against the gay and lesbian community?
No problem at all, I have gay and lesbian friends, and, as I said in my post.
[i'm glad that you and your wife, and two kids, and your paid for house are happy.]
Now, you've definitely got some MAJOR reading comprehension problems if you are somehow getting that I have a problem with the LGBT community with my comment.
At this point, I'll just chalk it up to you either have some type of reading comprehension problem, or are just belligerent and looking to fight about EVERYTHING.
Anyway, I'm completely fed up with you, because you aren't even participating in the discussion anymore, and instead are acting like a belligerent party-goer who has had a few too many drinks, and wants to try and turn EVERYTHING into a fightRullnick wrote: Your mistake is thinking that he can only be on ONE side of the issue, Either he's FOR paid mods or He's AGAINST them. When in reality he's neither, he's neutral because the paid mods aren't the deciding thing here.
He said he isn't a champion white-knight for free mods, and he said he isn't a money-hungry demon from hell. He just wants mods to be free and open when the mod creators want them to be. Why are you so goddamn narrow-sighted? If you read the post you would see you're exactly the kind of people he is talking about.
By the way, people disagreeing with you isn't "trolling". It's just you being unable to take f*#@ing criticism.Reaper0021 wrote: I agree the whole "Lesbian" thing is this.....person just trying to bait us into a fight and make it look as if we have issues with her ilk. Don't be fooled into any type of debate. I'm going to go play some Attila at any rate online, so peace to you all. I'm done with this nightmare of a woman and her continued inability to basically 'comprehend' that which has been made clear time and time again.RaskorGaming wrote: "Endorsements given: 279"
Oh, really?iloveyoupurples wrote: Everyone has an opinion, here's mine. I agree with you about half way. The mod users, get the fair deal. We get free mods. We have a place to get them, a place to install them. A place to discuss it. I take issue on behalf of the authors. Nexus is a business. Nexus is owned by a person. Said person makes a nice bloated salary. Such is business. As a consumer I'm getting the best deal period. Free mods. We come here to get mods. We view adds. We pay for premium accounts so it doesn't take 30 years to download a mod. No big deal. These mod authors make mods. Robin makes a tidy profit because we come to get them. Mod authors are given nothing. Robin pays for xyz. Cool. Robin makes a bloated profit from the investment. Mod authors get nothing. We don't come to view the adds. Or add to his cooperate portfolio. We come for mods. He gets paid because of it. Mod authors get nothing. Blah blah blah he pays xyz. Cool. Is it suddenly non profit? I had no issue knowing all this before valve decided to sell mods off the backs of their authors. I take issue now because it's hypocritical for him to say anything considering we come here for free mods WHILE MOD AUTHORS GET NOTHING. Then raise the banner of MODZFREEFROEVARRRR etc. If I were you I'd have kept my mouth shut on my opinion. It's hypocritical. You profit off the mod authors just like valve is trying to. So I agree with Psijonica to a degree. Yeah, you made a good business decision making a website and shored up a tidy residual sum for yourself. Problem I have is you wave a flag as if you're non profit. Mod authors are getting shafted. Period. I wish I could afford to donate to every mod I use, sadly I can't. Still From now on, when I have an extra dollar on my meager salary I'm buying a good author a coffee. Sorry authors I should have decided to donate sooner.Psijonica wrote:
75 mods have been hidden on the Nexus because the mod makers are scared that people are going to steal their assets, some people are talking about taking down any tips they've given out because people are going to steal them to make a profit. We're already seeing the lose part of the paywall when the community closed down and people are too paranoid to share their resources. We've already seen assets being stolen, lazy and unfinished mods being sold and one person putting out a free version with an annoying pop up.
The shadowscale armor is one item, clips with numerous races, you have to use the console to get it.
Chesko and Isoku used assets they had no right to use when they sold their mods and are now getting DMCA'd
Midas Magic put a annoying pop-up on the free version for a paid version that isn't anymore polished or improved.
Right now, literally this thread, is a example of the community getting split and damaged. Everyone is losing besides Valve and Bethesda, no one in this thread is winning under the current model.
@ HadToRegister
if you continue to pester me I will just have to report you. I am not even talking to you or even paying attention to what you are writing. Please leave me alone.
@ Reaper0021
i am not sure what your problem is. One post you are saying I am smart and the next you are accusing me of trying to bait you into an argument. Take it easy, you seem to be losing control of your self. if you are actually getting upset then the problem lies between your own ears. You posted that you were and adult in your 40's? No way. People in their 40's don't act like this. At this point you give me reason to ask that you please, please just leave me be. Ty.
No Endorsements, No Permissions, No Donations. 100% free mods 4-ever.
"The spirit of modding is sharing. In order to grow in quality rather than in quantity, modding has to be a labour of love, not a labour for money." - EmmaReaper0021 wrote: iloveyoupurples now this is how you make a point. This post right here.Reaper0021 wrote: In your past posts....you have been great. I said that and asked you "Why" you're all over the place right now/tonight? DON'T try to blame me for your woes or act as if I'm doing you harm. You've done that all on your own tonight. You deliberately played your "Lesbian" card in such a manner as to warrant caution cause you seem to be looking for a fight. You deliberately attempted to bait HadToRegister into a "do you have something against Lesbian/Gay's" argument. All here can see it and all here have said as much (about how you've maybe bee ndrinking tonight cause you say one thing then contradict yourself saying another without ANY thought of what you're saying".Psijonica wrote: Ya so what. Leave me alone. I was just giving him a little taste of his own medicine.
What does that have to do with you? Right! Nothing. Now go pester someone else. You want to pay for mods, go ahead. I don't care about you. You are not even a modder. I have released mods, only one here but I have mods on other forums. so I am asking you politely...; if you are the adult that you claim then please respect my wishes and stop already. I am not talking to you any more. If you are the adult you claim to be then please act like it now.Reaper0021 wrote: Yep far more of it than you. Sure it's stopped no sweat lay off of myself and HadToRegister. For GOOD.Psijonica wrote: @ iloveyoupurples
You see, that is how this whole issue started. Donations is the problem. Once Bethesda saw that people were making many off of their product that had no choice but to protect themselves.
They gave us the CS (construction set) for free and allowed and trusted us to mod as a hobby. But we abused that trust and turned it into a business. And so now Big Daddy Bethesda is coming and punishing us by saying , "you want to sell your mods, fine. But now we control everything and we want our cut."
Greedy modders. You deserve this. I hope they steal your mods and take everything. Because of this the entire community spirit has be poisoned.
No Endorsements, No Permissions, No Donations. 100% free mods 4-ever.
"The spirit of modding is sharing. In order to grow in quality rather than in quantity, modding has to be a labour of love, not a labour for money." - Emmahector530 wrote: you keep trying VERY hard to play the victim. "Dark0ne is trolling me!!!!" "im being bullied"
"i am not being stubborn, I am standing up for what I believe in."
yes you are, you will believe what you believe in no matter what is said and shown against it. the true beauty of a conspiracy theorist is that proof against the conspiracy is only proof of a conspiracy.x9fallen wrote: "This used to be free and fun". And what contributions have you made to the modding community?
Also, it was never free. Hosting files and allowing traffic to and from has a very real cost associated with it. If you don't like the price you have to pay (seeing an ad or two or seeing an option to go premium), don't pay it. See if you can find a community that allows file hosting/download with no cost that you can contribute nothing to. There isn't one. Which is why you'll stay here and continue to whine.
You've offered nothing of substance to the discussion. Your main complaints are that, although facts have been laid out, the author is still trying to deceive the community. You've also inferred the author has called you stupid twice, which is objectively false.
To be honest, I was never for the Grey Manes or the Battle Borns. I was never for the Imperials or the Stormcloaks. If Skyrim taught me anything, it's that people who tell you that you absolutely have to pick a side are wrong, and will bore you to death. In that order.
So when Dark0ne says he's neutral, I believe him. I've read his posts, he's never come out against pay4mods, he's only expressed concern about potential issues that could arise from them. He is not taking any modders cuts, and he's not forcing anyone to pay for him, he's merely opted into a voluntary system to help improve the site. If such a time comes when he decides to start charging for access to this site, or allowing mods to make their mods pay for only, then you will have evidence for your claims.
Claims you have made a lot of. You say he wants to be a champion for free mods, but he never claimed that. You state he's angry he didn't get a bigger cut of Valve's profits, but you have no evidence for this claim. You claim he is a troll merely because he pointed out an illogical inconsistency in your argument (in a minor, kind of sort of rude way, which I get and see it as the mistake it was, if only because you'd continue bringing it up.) You claim other people are trolling you when they merely disagree with you. You claim to have fought for this site and free modding, yet you aren't a contributor (neither am I, but I understand this place wouldn't be here without them.) You even claim to be standing up for what you believe in.
There is a difference between standing up for your beliefs and flinging accusations about without proper evidence. You want to question his motives? That's fine, I question the funds of scientific studies all the time, but I always read the study, take in the evidence, and mull it over to see if their are any actual flaws before accusing the study of being a shill for a corporate interest. Forgive me for saying so, but you sound like a religious doomsayer the way you talk. Or like you're a conservative who really hates anything to do with democrats.
If you apply the same argument to yourself as you have to others, then you have called people debating actual points with you "pathetic," just like the guy who "called you stupid." There is nothing troll about people merely disagreeing with you in the same tone you have disagreed with others. If you want to be taken seriously, then debate facts in a clear, respectful manner. If not, have fun with your free nexus account.
While it lasts. Or something. -
Okay, here's hoping this hasn't been asked and answered yet.
I'm having issues with disappearing objects, both from the Cell View Objects List and the Viewport.
I'm new to the GECK (And modding in general really,) and I was following the My First Vault tutorial. I had gotten to about the bottom of this page; http://geck.bethsoft.com/index.php/Bethsoft_Tutorial_Layout
I had noticed before after opening the GECK and loading up the vault74.esp that some of my placed objects from earlier had disappeared. I replaced them, continued and gotten most of the galley done when I saved and quit, did other things , and came back. It was then I realized that the entire section of the vault entrance (Cave, vault door, and room outside the first hallway,) had disappeared.
Even saving in increments didn't help. (IE: vault74a. vault74b. etc. and so on.) My last save attempt had almost everything disappear, sans a couple of the first hallway pieces.
Anyone know what I might be doing wrong?
Thanks in advance.
Drawing a line under recent events and moving on
in Site Updates
Posted
Considering the price of some of the mods on the paid workshop, I could see $5 being the price. Which is strange, I would have thought people would price their mods around $.50 to $2. Going from free to $5 with a mod that many other mods might rely on seems like a bad business move, if nothing else. (Though I can see why people might think the opposite.)
Yes, they'll be pirated. Though it would be difficult if Valve made the mods somehow Steam reliant. I could picture that not going over well... or even working properly. It probably wouldn't happen, and piracy would probably be rampant if the prices weren't cheap or affordable or fair.
Judging by the early access games having a reputation of abandoning their game once they make enough money, (not common but it happens,) I don't think there would be an obligation for modders to keep mods stable. Bethesda and Valve could certainly try to make this a requirement, but I doubt they'd do it, and I doubt it would stop some modders from dropping off the face of the internet.