Wolvenlight

In response to post #25019004. Good questions. While I'm by no means an authority on this stuff, it got me thinking. Considering the price of some of the mods on the paid workshop, I could see $5 being the price. Which is strange, I would have thought people would price their mods around $.50 to $2. Going from free to $5 with a mod that many other mods might rely on seems like a bad business move, if nothing else. (Though I can see why people might think the opposite.) Yes, they'll be pirated. Though it would be difficult if Valve made the mods somehow Steam reliant. I could picture that not going over well... or even working properly. It probably wouldn't happen, and piracy would probably be rampant if the prices weren't cheap or affordable or fair. Judging by the early access games having a reputation of abandoning their game once they make enough money, (not common but it happens,) I don't think there would be an obligation for modders to keep mods stable. Bethesda and Valve could certainly try to make this a requirement, but I doubt they'd do it, and I doubt it would stop some modders from dropping off the face of the internet.

In response to post #25007544. #25007814, #25014694, #25016689, #25019509 are all replies on the same post. Such accusation, very evidence.

In response to post #24966929. #24966984, #24967199, #24968504, #24969224, #24988424, #24989869, #24991699, #24996829, #25011074 are all replies on the same post. I'm glad you made this comment so that it showed your true self, gastovski.

In response to post #24997179. #24997739, #25000969, #25001074, #25002429, #25002999, #25003089, #25006504, #25010279, #25012879, #25020594 are all replies on the same post. Mr. Dave The percentage cut was one of the most mentioned issues the community had with the whole paid mods thing. So it was the problem, but not for the reasons many would think, which was OPs point. The modders who jumped on the pay bandwagon were a mix of people who either created unique assets or edited assets. Really, they had every right to edit game assets (as they were given that right by Bethesda, the creators of those assets.) Unless you're talking about modders taking assets from, say, immersive armors and putting them in their own mods, or creating their mod to be SKSE reliant and not giving proper credit and compensation. But that's a far cry from all of them. I do agree that paid modding can divide a community with greed. It tends to stifle innovation when people are so concerned about competition that open resources and tutorials go away.

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569 are all replies on the same post. I dunno Caladan, Ves has been nice to me so far. Granted, I don't agree with his points, and yeah, I've seen him lash out at others, but I think that has more to do with everyone lashing out at everyone. People like Phantompally on the other hand... Holy crap, that guy needed to calm down. Thankfully, he seems to have realized this as well. As for OP, you'll find all kinds. I'm a leech who was neutral, but I find myself siding with the pro-paid mods group more often than not. The only thing I don't like about paid mod systems is how I've heard that it messed up modding communities in other games, like the Sims.

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429 are all replies on the same post. Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties. I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

In response to post #24816339. #24817409, #24817554 are all replies on the same post. I have read many of these threads. I still have yet to see that claim. The only people I see making it are the anti-paid side speaking in such a way they're putting words in the mouths of the paid mod authors themselves. (I've seen a lot of that as well.) Perhaps I've missed the few cases this is true, however, I have seen many, many paid mod authors pointing out the hatred and vitriol directed at them by the people they thought were part of a supportive modding community. I've seen many, many free mod consumers and free mod authors attacking the paid side with words like "you're a disease, entitled brats, we don't need you." No, what we don't need is that behavior. I don't care if you've modded or not, an attack is an attack no matter where it comes from. And perhaps it's true that some of the paid mod authors can't continue modding because they aren't paid. Perhaps being paid gave them the financial freedom to mod again where they could no longer find the time before. It's not an automatically nefarious claim. Now, I totally get the concern with taking assets that aren't yours and using them in your own mod. That happened a couple times and it shouldn't have, but that's such a small minority. I also get the whole piggybacking off of free work to make paid work concern. That said, that's true of anything. Using Java to make a paid game, using Open Office to write a book, using Blender to make paid clothing mods for the Sims. (That last one is one of the reasons I don't want a paid mod system for Elder Scrolls.) It's really up to the user agreements of the free resources and those using them for paid work to discuss themselves. Perhaps some of those resource providers would be fine with it, at least if paid modders had asked and worked out their terms. But regardless of where the hate started, it shouldn't have started at all, and it shouldn't have continued. I'm not for paid modding, but if I had to choose, I'd be perfectly fine paying kind and fair modders over not having to pay jerk modders. (Neither of these scenarios exist in a vacuum, but you get the idea.) Nobody is really being selfish, but there are a lot of illogical accusations flying around. I've just seen more on the anti-pay side than the pro-pay side so far.

In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904, #24811959, #24813484 are all replies on the same post. Chido, I have to take FavoredSouls side here. Regardless of whether or not paid modding was a good idea overall, (and I personally think it wasn't,) the consumer portion of the Nexus was far more filled with extreme vitriol and hatred towards the paid authors, people who have given so much for free already. Very few mod authors who tried the paid workshop actually cared enough about being compensated to the point they wouldn't have modded in the first place. When presented with the option, they tried it. It did okay for some but ultimately failed. Many of them accepted that gracefully. Heck, it was always a possibility, quite a few games allow mods to be sold. Bethesda could always make that choice, and you know this is true, because they just did. However brief it was. And if your motivation is experience and a portfolio, then money is your motivation, simple as that. When people like you attack them, calling them entitled brats, a disease, tell them how they should think, why they should do modding, (or anything,) as if you own the very concept... coming off to others as if you think you're so much better than them because you do it for free? (Not to be confused with "for nothing.") You prove everything the paid authors say against you and the people who first started this "war." Especially because you attacked first. I don't care how many mods you've made. I've never made one in my life and I'm on the paid authors side here. You think they're delusional? We don't need your mods either. We don't need you. Bethesda doesn't need you. There will always be other people. Your opinion isn't automatically better because you've made mods for free, or at all. Also, no, nobody is going to replace them when they leave. People will come and go as they always have, but only you and your kind have chased good people away by being so dead set against not the system for it's flaws, but the innocent people who did nothing but fall outside your banner. We have lost their mods, their ideas, their concepts and assets because of the horrible things said by people like you. I like free mods, but I like fair, kind people a lot more. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a smaller more expensive modding community than a hate filled one. (Neither exist, but hey.) Enough is enough. It's fine if you think it's a bad idea. Discuss it's flaws, rail against Bethesda, be logical, convince people. Don't hurt innocent people, and don't let jerks goad you. Also, please learn how to use the word "entitled" correctly. I haven't seen anyone use it right once this entire fiasco.

In response to post #24810109. #24810954, #24813769, #24814189 are all replies on the same post. Quite a few mods made about a thousand dollars in about five days. It totally did work for some, but you're right that most would find themselves lacking. That said, I agree with the point that we would have much less with a paid mod system. Content tends to get shared in a free system, and in a paid system people tend to hold on to their assets and not teach others how to do things for themselves, (to cull potential competition.)

In response to post #24816339. While I could be wrong, I haven't seen any mod authors state that they couldn't continue modding because they weren't getting paid. From what I understand, they reacted to the horrid backlash from the community and decided from there that the community they had been a part of for years was a fickle bunch of spoiled jack offs who didn't actually appreciate mod authors at all. I'm paraphrasing, and I don't agree, but that's what I've read and I can understand the logic behind it. If I were a mod author and many of my "fans" treated me like that, I might jump ship too. If anything, the introduction of a paid mod system meant they could do what they love for a living (or at least spend more time on it,) and the retraction of that system meant they couldn't. Unfortunately, while I think paid mods would cause a lot of problems and I'm sort of relieved it all ended, good people got screwed over more than just losing out on potential revenue.

In response to post #24784749. #24784879, #24784999 are all replies on the same post. Always happy to make your day. If I didn't do it, someone might have thought you spelled it wrong on accident.

In response to post #24784099. #24784289 is also a reply to the same post. These are all fantastic points and I agree with every single one.

In response to post #24784799. I can't help but agree with this. It does seem rather unfair to stop support on an older version of something just because you're charging for the newer version.

In response to post #24784749. #24784999 is also a reply to the same post. develop* Sorry, I had to. You're such a stickler for grammar I couldn't resist. As an edit, let me play the other side of the fence. "Sure, we can try something like this out. Just know that you must also log all your hours to differentiate between when you're testing and when you're playing for enjoyment. This won't really matter though, as it will instead be based on the number of bugs you find instead of a per hour rate, (commission instead of hourly, as it were.) The rate can be negotiated, but I recommend about 50 cents per bug you find. You must also be the first to find the bug, though we will be open to paying those after you if your report is shoddy. Oh, and you obviously must pay for the mod first for the privilege of working with them. $9.99 is an exaggeration, and I think we both know that, but I admire your tenacity. We look forward to hearing from you in the future. We'll hash out the details of what constitutes a bug in future messages."

In response to post #24778264. #24780889, #24783814, #24784399 are all replies on the same post. You missed my point. Those "entitled stoners" never thought that you owed them anything either. So I turned it around on you. Also: "I have never once in this entire controversy even hinted that they do." - You. "That said...my appreciation and thanks is all you're going to get from me. *And you'd damned well better be glad you have even that, and that's all you should bloody well expect....from ANYONE.* You are GROSSLY overvaluing what you do." - Also you. That's a pretty big hint right there. Fact is, endorsements and "thanks" are free. To be so against actual monetary compensation for quality mods is another hint.

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579, #24742634, #24742744, #24742799, #24742804, #24742964, #24743039, #24743319, #24743439, #24743614, #24743699, #24743779, #24743799, #24743809, #24743899, #24743969, #24744239, #24744704, #24746029, #24747899, #24749729, #24750024, #24751049, #24751199, #24766859, #24767519, #24767764, #24770099, #24771514, #24771974, #24772789, #24772979, #24773749, #24773819, #24773909, #24774049, #24774289, #24774359, #24774519, #24774549, #24774589, #24775464, #24775549, #24775694, #24775699, #24775889, #24775919, #24776224, #24776959, #24777129, #24778039, #24778044 are all replies on the same post. @phantompally. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon of people who think you're being rather illogical. It's great that you give mod authors endorsements and thanks for their work. But for some, that's not enough, and that's perfectly okay. They don't owe you their thanks for your thanks. You don't owe them any money you aren't willing to pay, and they don't owe you a mod they feel you haven't earned access to yourself. You think mod authors are overestimating themselves? I think you're the one doing that. They don't need your endorsement, they don't need your download, there are tons of other people who are nicer than you who will provide those things, and many of them would be willing to pay a fair price. Just look at the armor mods that sold about 4000 times in the week they were up on the paid workshop. Hell, look at TF2. The "entire" modding community was actually rather divided, even if the free side outnumbered the pay side. Mostly, it was just people unhappy with the money split that caused the change. If the paid mods won out and you left? There would be someone here saying "good riddance to bad rubbish" to you. They'd call you greedy, saying you just want everything for free. They'd call you entitled, (even if nobody has used that word correctly so far.) In reality, we're all just different people with different viewpoints. Both sides have fair points. Skyrim is a great game made even greater by the mods we've all seen here. Whether or not it was game of the year without mods doesn't mean those mods are worthless. The game would not have sold as many PC copies without the work released by modders. I think you might have said this yourself, but many other people have pointed this out. Many mods are very much worth a lot, and the quality I've seen from some are quite deserving of cold hard cash payment. (The only reason it's never happened is the Skyrim EULA.) From the scripting and voice work of iNPC, to the asset quality of Immersive Armors, to the bug fixes of the unofficial patches, to Boris and SKSE and SkyUI, some people who actually get paid in the game industry have done less work. The fact these mods are free is great for many of us, this I can agree with. But these works are not "amateur." They're far from it. Many of the things you have refuted so far haven't been things I've actually heard from the other side. Nobody was going to leave because they weren't getting paid, it was the vitriol filled backlash that caused many to hide their mods. Nobody thinks you should be forced to pay for all mods, (the door's over there if you can't pay for theirs.) If you want to argue, you can really say anything you want, but I'd recommend a civil discussion of points actually made over the Fox News-esque talking point shout matches I've seen so far. If that's not something you want to/can do, (and trust me, many on my side can't either,) then I agree with you on another thing. Neither of us are required to deal with each other. Just know that as far as common sense is concerned in terms of the many people who disagree with your stance, the common denominator is you.

In response to post #24778264. #24780889 is also a reply to the same post. Those entitled stoners, no matter how high they may be, do not and will never owe you anything for free either.

In response to post #24774004. #24775424, #24777064, #24777154, #24777539, #24782864, #24782899 are all replies on the same post. It really depends on who taunted first. Was the taunting on part of the SkyUI team in response to those who showed hate and vitriol first? Neither side is completely guilty or innocent here. And regardless, there is this thing called forgiveness. People can, and do, learn and grow. As for donating, I think I will. Thanks for the info.

In response to post #24775839. #24779609, #24780114 are all replies on the same post. Thing is, many things, free or not, have been used by other people to create something they will charge for. Unity? Check. Unreal Engine? Check. GIMP? Check. Open Office? Check. C++? Check. JAVA? Check. It's a sad fact of life that you don't get to choose how other people use your work, at least unless you hit them with a contract stating specifics first thing. Photoshop was for editing photos, and it evolved to do so to the point you could turn a turd into Justin Beiber. TNT/dynamite was a mining tool, eventually used for warfare. SFM was released so people could have a Garry's Mod to make cool/silly animations, and yet people love to make porn with it. Ultimately, the people who get to decide whether or not others can charge for mods are not the modding community. They are Besthesda. They are the original creators of anything Skyrim, and with their grace you have been allowed to make things, from scratch or not, meant for editing Skyrim. The only thing you get to decide is whether or not you allow other people to use your tools to create something they can charge for, and arguably only if you made this statement from the get go. I get the fear that if everyone charged for their mods, this place would be a lot more quiet and a lot less awesome. I get it. But I doubt it would ever get that one sided. There would still be free mods, and there would also be paid mods. And if either wanted to use each other's work, they had but to ask and negotiate. This was not a war until many of us turned on each other with illogical hatred over some half thought ideal. And it's a war we've all lost whether we realize it yet or not. Hopefully, regardless of the casualties, it was for the best in the end. I can't say, but I hope this is the best path.

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579, #24742634, #24742744, #24742799, #24742804, #24742964, #24743039, #24743319, #24743439, #24743614, #24743699, #24743779, #24743799, #24743809, #24743899, #24743969, #24744239, #24744704 are all replies on the same post. I'll start off by saying I am not a content creator, not a modder, not an uploader. The most I've ever done was make UT2k4 maps, and I only released those among friends. I've always wanted to try modding Skyrim, but I've never had the time. I do, however, download and browse the mods on this site constantly. It amazes me how much time, energy, work, and skill people have put into modding. And I'm glad for it. As a strict consumer, do I want to have to pay money for something cool I see and want? No, who does? Do I think people should be compensated for their work if they so choose to? Yes, who wouldn't? And if it was good enough, sure, I'd pay for a few if the prices were fair. I'd decide whether they were or not for myself. Many people here are throwing gentle insults at each other in the form of calling people entitled hypocrites. Much of the time, both these words are being used incorrectly. Hypocrites means saying you have convictions but you actually don't, or saying something and then doing the opposite. Downloading free mods but charging for yours? Not hypocrisy. (That would be pirating paid mods but trying to charge for yours.) Entitled means thinking you deserve special treatment. Consumers who want modding to remain "pure" aren't these things, because they want that for everyone. Modders who would like to be paid are not automatically these things, as they would want these things for everyone, and they'd work in a free market, so the people would choose whether or not they want to pay for their work. If they don't, they'd lower the price, or make it free. Some consumers here, however, seem to believe that modding should always be free, and that those who want payment are greedy. That's the real hypocrisy. If someone makes a mod and wants to charge for it, that is their work and their prerogative. If someone doesn't want to pay for it, that is also their prerogative. So far, nobody is entitled, nobody is a hypocrite, and nobody is greedy (unless they're obviously overcharging.) The second a consumer demands that the mods always be free, that is greed. *On the part of the consumer.* Sorry, but it most likely is. A modder could spend ten thousand hours on something and release it for free while another spends the same amount of time expecting payment. Neither are in the wrong. What's wrong is thinking one get's to dictate how another spends their own time. Paid content providers don't need your input, just like you don't need to buy their mod in the first place. They weren't demanding anything. But the consumers who shouted at them for wanting payment? They were the ones making demands, demands I would argue were born from greed. If not greed, then illogical thinking. That's not the same as those consumers who are afraid of what paid mods could bring. It's a legitimate fear to have that quality modding might drop off if people don't have access to the utility of an open source environment. Not being able to afford all the mods you'd want is also a good fear to have. I would like the modding scene to remain free, because I like free mods. Tropical Skyrim for 0 dollars? Yes please! (Soolie pls update?) Would I pay for it? Actually, I very well might have thrown a dollar his way if I needed to do so to access it. I doubt Boris would charge $49.99 for his content, (seriously, that's such an exaggeration I'd call it fear mongering if I'd heard it from Fox News.) If that were the case, someone would come along with something similar for cheaper/free, or he'd lower the price himself once sales dropped off. All of that isn't really my point though. In the end, if you're afraid of where this could go, say so. And if you're going to point out flaws, be sure to point out the right ones. Preferably the one's you aren't guilty of yourselves. As for the content creators here. Don't worry about the vitriol that the loud vocal minority are throwing your way. You all have many more silent supporters (or filthy neutrals,) who actually know how to keep a level head, even if we disagree with you. I don't think you're greedy, I don't think you're hypocrites, I don't think you're entitled. The only thing I think you should do is update the Tropical Overhaul Mod. I mean, uh. Keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That one.

In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519, #24648809, #24649619, #24650179, #24650239, #24650354, #24651039, #24651229, #24651294, #24651314, #24651324, #24651364, #24651429, #24651469, #24651679, #24651784, #24651844, #24651864, #24651949, #24652074, #24652084, #24652114, #24652274, #24652374, #24652484, #24652614, #24652634, #24652709, #24652984, #24652989, #24653374, #24654079, #24654169, #24654569, #24654739, #24654814, #24654864, #24654924, #24654954, #24655019, #24655324, #24655564, #24655599, #24655739, #24656204, #24656864, #24657599, #24657739, #24657834, #24658089, #24658219, #24658309, #24658354, #24658469 are all replies on the same post. @Psijonica To be honest, I was never for the Grey Manes or the Battle Borns. I was never for the Imperials or the Stormcloaks. If Skyrim taught me anything, it's that people who tell you that you absolutely have to pick a side are wrong, and will bore you to death. In that order. So when Dark0ne says he's neutral, I believe him. I've read his posts, he's never come out against pay4mods, he's only expressed concern about potential issues that could arise from them. He is not taking any modders cuts, and he's not forcing anyone to pay for him, he's merely opted into a voluntary system to help improve the site. If such a time comes when he decides to start charging for access to this site, or allowing mods to make their mods pay for only, then you will have evidence for your claims. Claims you have made a lot of. You say he wants to be a champion for free mods, but he never claimed that. You state he's angry he didn't get a bigger cut of Valve's profits, but you have no evidence for this claim. You claim he is a troll merely because he pointed out an illogical inconsistency in your argument (in a minor, kind of sort of rude way, which I get and see it as the mistake it was, if only because you'd continue bringing it up.) You claim other people are trolling you when they merely disagree with you. You claim to have fought for this site and free modding, yet you aren't a contributor (neither am I, but I understand this place wouldn't be here without them.) You even claim to be standing up for what you believe in. There is a difference between standing up for your beliefs and flinging accusations about without proper evidence. You want to question his motives? That's fine, I question the funds of scientific studies all the time, but I always read the study, take in the evidence, and mull it over to see if their are any actual flaws before accusing the study of being a shill for a corporate interest. Forgive me for saying so, but you sound like a religious doomsayer the way you talk. Or like you're a conservative who really hates anything to do with democrats. If you apply the same argument to yourself as you have to others, then you have called people debating actual points with you "pathetic," just like the guy who "called you stupid." There is nothing troll about people merely disagreeing with you in the same tone you have disagreed with others. If you want to be taken seriously, then debate facts in a clear, respectful manner. If not, have fun with your free nexus account. While it lasts. Or something.

Okay, here's hoping this hasn't been asked and answered yet. I'm having issues with disappearing objects, both from the Cell View Objects List and the Viewport. I'm new to the GECK (And modding in general really,) and I was following the My First Vault tutorial. I had gotten to about the bottom of this page; http://geck.bethsoft.com/index.php/Bethsoft_Tutorial_Layout I had noticed before after opening the GECK and loading up the vault74.esp that some of my placed objects from earlier had disappeared. I replaced them, continued and gotten most of the galley done when I saved and quit, did other things , and came back. It was then I realized that the entire section of the vault entrance (Cave, vault door, and room outside the first hallway,) had disappeared. Even saving in increments didn't help. (IE: vault74a. vault74b. etc. and so on.) My last save attempt had almost everything disappear, sans a couple of the first hallway pieces. Anyone know what I might be doing wrong? Thanks in advance.