TESVEdit is not hard, people.

[Morrovvind]

This thread has been interesting to me as a potential mod author. I have a few questions for anyone who wants to answer. However, not having ever modded before, some of the technical terms may confuse me.

 

1. Is there a certain way or process to follow when creating mods that only results in clean mods, therefore removing the need to clean after it? (Like using a stencil when drawing so you don't have to erase) (I can do with a simple yes or no, as I'm going to research more later)

 

2. OR Are all mods inherently dirty from the moment they were created, no matter the stringent work plan the author laid out?

 

I'm asking because when I make my alternate start mod, I would like to utilize a work procedure that circumvents the need to clean it by having it 100% clean in the first place.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Morrovvind

[prod80]

Hey Morrovvind, that depends on what you want to edit... you want to edit just part of an object (anything really) or the whole thing and how critical are changes you make dependent of the default Skyrim values? If you take an example about an NPC to which you want to edit just the AI part, or just the Weight slider, or just xyz... when creating that mod and adding it to a plugin - all the NPC data will be added. This is both good and bad - good because if there's is a dependency inside your changes on the default values your mod when loaded after other mods will win the conflict, bad because your mod is also less compatible with other mods trying to change the same NPC in other ways.

 

If you see this example of 2 mods trying to change some values...

 

Value | Mod 1 | NPC Record

1. Value from Skyrim.esm, not changed (lets say this is the look of the NPC)

2. Value from Skyrim.esm, not changed (this as well)

3. Value you changed (this is AI)

4. Value you changed (this is Inventory)

5. Value from Skyrim.esm, not changed (whatever else)

6. Value from Skyrim.esm, not changed (whatever else)

 

Value | Mod 2 | NPC Record

1. Value changed by someone else (someone made him look badass)

2. Value changed by someone else (and added ApachiiHair)

3. Value changed by someone else (changed the AI as well)

4. Value from Skyrim.esm, not changed (didn't touch Inventory, so this is default in Skyrim.esm)

5. Value from Skyrim.esm, not changed (whatever else)

6. Value from Skyrim.esm, not changed (whatever else)

 

No matter how you are going to load these mods they will conflict and one of them will win (the one loaded last) overwriting the other, so in case yours is loaded last you will not see the changes to the looks and hair of the other mod and the NPC would appear with Vanilla looks (actually it would have a lot more bugs than that, but that's another story)

 

The idea behind cleaning this up (Identical to Master (which is Skyrim.esm)) is to remove all those values which are not needed. So if we were to clean your mod with TES5Edit to this:

 

Value | Mod 1 | NPC Record

1. Cleaned/Removed the ITM (Identical to Master) record

2. Cleaned/Removed the ITM (Identical to Master) record

3. Value you changed (this is AI)

4. Value you changed (this is Inventory)

5. Cleaned/Removed the ITM (Identical to Master) record

6. Cleaned/Removed the ITM (Identical to Master) record

 

We would end up with a mod changing ONLY those parts, and nothing else - so when loaded now, after the other mod, you can have the NPC looks of the other mod, with your changes to AI and Inventory. Without any problems.

 

 

So, this increases compatibility and in general the quality of work (not to mention the amount of people complaining about issues on your page). You should however notify what the mod changes and that everything else is removed so people know about it and understand it could be loaded last... Of course there is a whole bunch of stuff that can go wrong in CK, this is just an example with ITM records.

[ripple]

Like Prod says, it really depends on what type of records you are fiddling with. Cell edits tend to be most prone to generating 'dirty edits' but I've seen all sorts of stuff get deleted and duplicate masters of all kinds (sometimes stuff that made me wonder 'how can that possibly happen for a mod that is intended to edit this?'). So the short answer to your question #1 is 'no.'

 

The best way is still to look through the plugin records in TES5Edit before you upload and release the mod. I scrutinize every single record for 'Inconsequential NPCs' before uploading the updates, paying particularly attention to cell records to ensure nothing is added or altered except what I intend. It's bloody time consuming, but the thing is, the modder is ultimately the only person who is most suited to do this, because even if an experienced user or modder who can interpret records in TES5Edit looks through my plugin, s/he may still not be able to tell if an edit made to a default game chair is an accidental 'wild edit' (which can't be cleaned automatically) or intentional (for example, rendered as a persistent reference to guide an NPC's AI package). You sort of have to be a 'perfectionist' and a bit anal about all this stuff. So I do quite agree with the OP that modders in general should be more attentive to maintaining clean plugins, but as many have already said, this kind of 'mod literacy' is more likely to succeed in spreading when people take the 'gentle tap on the shoulders' approach rather than more aggressive tones that may end up conveying impressions of self-entitlements.

Edited June 12, 2013 by ripple

[Morrovvind]

Thank you very much prod80, that was extremely helpful! The way you put it in a list helped. So it seems I will be dealing with a lot of cleaning because I will be editing the dialogue of several major NPCs. If I change Jarl Balgrufs dialogue so he doesn't mention the player being in Helgen before, I risk users losing cosmetic and other changes for Jarl Balgruf they use from other mods unless I got rid of those vanilla records that don't need to be in my plugin at all, which would make Tes5edit indispensable in creating compatible mods.

 

EDIT: thanks ripple! I will definitely have to research more, but in the end it will be worth it. To me being clean with things has a definite beneficial psychological effect, like being clean, having a clean house, etc.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Morrovvind

[ripple]

So it seems I will be dealing with a lot of cleaning because I will be editing the dialogue of several major NPCs. If I change Jarl Balgrufs dialogue so he doesn't mention the player being in Helgen before, I risk users losing cosmetic and other changes for Jarl Balgruf they use from other mods unless I got rid of those vanilla records that don't need to be in my plugin at all, which would make Tes5edit indispensable in creating compatible mods.

 

No problem. (Quest) Dialogue records are separate from NPC records, so if you edit the dialogues, you won't be altering Balgruff's NPC record and there will be no incompatibilities with mods that make comsetic edits to that NPC, alter his inventory, or outfit records (which is yet another separate record type).

[TheGreenLion]

There would also be fewer run-of-the-mill "dirty" edits if the CK wouldn't flip over altered Navmeshes and deleted objects. It would have been so much easier for me to Navmesh my mod by simply generating a new Navmesh for all changed areas and have the CK read it as "the old Navmesh is gone, but there IS a Navmesh so nothing is wrong" instead of going back through, restoring the old Navmesh and sinking it into the void to keep it from complaining. The rest of it is handy, such as bogus portals, flipped normals and so forth that would cause it to not function as intended.

 

Another way to do that is simply add to the triangle count and never remove any that aren't additional. For drastic changes that's a giant pain but you won't get the errors that generating a new Navmesh does. Obviously there are many ways to procure dirty edits, I've only ran into those as being the most complained about when it comes to an altered cell.

Edited June 12, 2013 by TheGreenLion

[gamenoob12]

When i run tes5edit and the plugins and stuff are loading at the right it abruptly stops when Error: unknown record type Guar shows up. how do i fix this?