Persistent CTD at the exact same spot

[CaptainPatch]

@b2kcommander -- I'm quite sure that I'm NOT having any kind of graphics problem: GeForce GTX 460 w/4 Gb of video RAM, using the most recent driver which the GeForce Experience (beta) assures me has been optimized for Skyrim.. Overall, my rig may not be "bleeding edge", but it's still within 1 year of being optimal. (Well, maybe _2_ years given that if you own it, it's **already** obsolete.)

 

@chikawowwow [Love that name btw!] This is an entirely fresh start. All mods were finalized prior to game start, which also included a thorough TES5Edit Cleaning to remove all of the dirty edit warnings. The final BOSS evaluation was pretty clean, excepting 8 Bash tag suggestions (which are optional anyway). Gameplay is less than 20 hours into the game. [Alternate Start. Riverwood. Bleak Falls Barrow. Whiterun. CTD] So the removal of Deadly Dragons would have no effect on this particular Save game.

 

Here is the NMM load order with all of the 100+ mods currently installed. Given the recurring reference to "Follwer_Alias" in the logs, I was thinking it would have to be one of the Follower mods that was bollixing things. Look at the list and the (tail end of the) logs and I'll start following suggestions as to which I should turn off first.

 

 

GameMode=Skyrim

Skyrim.esm=1

Update.esm=1

Dawnguard.esm=1

HearthFires.esm=1

Dragonborn.esm=1

ApachiiHair.esm=1

AP Skyrim.esm=1

CraftSketching.esm=1

Grytewake.esm=1

LB_MuchAdoSnowElves.esm=1

moonpath.esm=1

SPIKE.esm=1

Warehouse.esm=1

WARZONES - Civil Unrest.esm=1

XFLMain.esm=1

Hideout.esm=1

retreat.esm=1

HighResTexturePack01.esp=1

HighResTexturePack02.esp=1

HighResTexturePack03.esp=1

Unofficial Skyrim Patch.esp=1

Unofficial Dawnguard Patch.esp=1

Unofficial Hearthfire Patch.esp=1

Unofficial Dragonborn Patch.esp=1

fantasy music overhaul.esp=1

fantasy music overhaul - no vanilla music.esp=1

fantasy music overhaul - unique town music.esp=1

lockpickvision.esp=1

TradeBarter.esp=1

CCGuides.esp=1

CCScrolls.esp=1

CCStaff.esp=1

CCPortableTools.esp=1

CCLevelImprove.esp=1

CCUniqueItems.esp=1

CCMaterialsandPerks.esp=1

CCTailoring.esp=1

CCMainFile.esp=1

Chesko_WearableLantern.esp=1

GuardianStonesExpanded.esp=1

Ish's Souls to Perks.esp=1

Perks Unbound.esp=1

Perks Unbound - Dawnguard.esp=1

Perks Unbound - Dragonborn.esp=1

smithingExtended.esp=1

SmithingTomes.esp=1

The Dead Bee Scrolls.esp=1

Tytanis.esp=1

Convenient Horses.esp=1

Footprints.esp=1

SkyUI.esp=1

DEATH-DEALER-PKR.esp=1

hothtrooper44_ArmorCompilation.esp=1

Dr_Bandolier.esp=1

Smithing Perks Overhaul - Balanced.esp=1

AdalMatar.esp=1

BetterNordicRuins.esp=1

bhabhilon.esp=1

buildablehouse.esp=1

DovahkriidGrenzganger.esp=1

DovahkiinSpeech.esp=1

Dragon Falls Manor.esp=1

ElysiumEstate.esp=1

ExplorerDungeonPack.esp=1

Grytewake.esp=1

HallsOfDovahndor.esp=1

hideout - hearthfires.esp=1

Inconsequential NPCs.esp=1

Jotunheim.esp=1

LB_MuchAdoSnowElves_Quest.esp=1

Milan's PAck.esp=1

moonpath_questdata.esp=1

quest into the depths.esp=1

RiversideLodge.esp=1

robbersroost.esp=1

Run For Your Lives.esp=1

Saviors Lodge - Player Home.esp=1

Sevenkeys.esp=1

Sharphook.esp=1

SwordOfSigdan.esp=1

The Fifth Gate.esp=1

TheFrontier.esp=1

The McMiller Chronicles.esp=1

WheezesDungeonPack1.esp=1

Wyrmstooth.esp=1

AchieveThat.esp=1

AddChoices01.esp=1

Better Blacksmithing.esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Ammo.esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Books.esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Food (Weightless).esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Ingredients.esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Miscellaneous.esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Potions (Weightless).esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Soul Gems (Ranked).esp=1

Headbomb's Better Sorting - Spells.esp=1

Bounty Gold.esp=1

Guard Dialogue Overhaul.esp=1

Immersive Weapons.esp=1

TanningSmeltingExp.esp=1

Helgen Reborn.esp=1

EnhancedLightsandFX.esp=1

DeadlySpellImpacts.esp=1

JulesRankPerks.esp=1

training_costs_5_x2_x3.esp=1

training_costs_20_x1_x1.esp=1

training_costs_10_x2_x3.esp=1

training_costs_5_x1_x1.esp=1

training_costs_20_x2_x3.esp=1

training_costs_10_x1_x1.esp=1

training_costs_1_x1_x1.esp=1

ArmorPerkHelmetRemover.esp=1

Perky.esp=1

Essential followers - all followers.esp=1

XFLDialogue.esp=1

XFLPlugins.esp=1

specializedfollowers.esp=1

EMCompViljaSkyrim.esp=1

LylvieveSisters.esp=1

Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp=1

Bashed Patch, 0.esp=1

[ripple]

I am not sure which mod introduced this script: 'aaSexScript.psc' (Animated Prostitutions?). At any rate, even though you have uninstalled the mod, orphan script data has now been baked into your savegame. You can do one of two things:

 

1) Enable the SKSE 'ClearInvalidRegistration' function, play the game for a few hours or so (do something else other than what's triggering the CTD), and see if the CTDs go away.

 

To enable SKSE CIR:

Navigate to '..../skyrim/data/SKSE/' and create 'SKSE.ini' using NotePad or another text editor, then enter the following lines:

 

[General]

ClearInvalidRegistrations=1

 

Save and close.

 

Or

 

2) Start a new game.

 

Uninstalling mods using continually updating scripts will damage existing save games unless those scripts are properly halted following the mod author's instructions.

Edited June 20, 2013 by ripple

[chikawowwow]

 

@chikawowwow [Love that name btw!] This is an entirely fresh start. All mods were finalized prior to game start, which also included a thorough TES5Edit Cleaning to remove all of the dirty edit warnings. The final BOSS evaluation was pretty clean, excepting 8 Bash tag suggestions (which are optional anyway). Gameplay is less than 20 hours into the game. [Alternate Start. Riverwood. Bleak Falls Barrow. Whiterun. CTD] So the removal of Deadly Dragons would have no effect on this particular Save game.

 

Firstly you should know, I keep compliments with my name like Predator does with his kills, I wear compliments around my belt like he does skulls. Just without the blood, I go a bit woozy...

 

From what was posted already have you investigated the aasexcript? I assume that what you posted previously is the end of your papyrus log so this is highly likely the reason for your CTD. Like ripple said, clean your save and hope it works. If not you may have the mod still installed. If you cannot pinpoint the cause the only other option is to test all mods individually (or in batches, whichever you have time for). Start a new game with each go or save before your CTD point without mods. Its the only way to get a clear reason.

[CaptainPatch]

At any rate, even though you have uninstalled the mod, orphan script data has now been baked into your savegame.

??? If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that once a mod has been installed, after it is subsequently uninstalled, it will _still_ affect Saves make subsequent to the _un_installation. Is that correct? Because that then implies that EVERY mod ever installed, even after they have been removed WILL be affecting EVERY Save made after their installation.

 

If that's the case, then there's another 40-50 uninstalled mods that are _still_ affecting my current Saves.

 

It sort of sounds like the ONLY way to entirely remove the influence of uninstalled mods is to totally uninstall Skyrim itself, and then reinstall from scratch and add ONLY those mods that you know are functional and desired.

 

[i have _got_ to be misunderstanding this.]

Edited June 21, 2013 by CaptainPatch

[ripple]

In a nut shell, with Papyrus scripting, there is no such thing as a 'clean save' any more. A lot of mods will leave some orphan junk in your save games after they have been uninstalled. What you need to be concerned about isn't every mod, or even mods that using Papyrus scripts in general (because most of the stuff are either harmless or will be cleaned after a complete cell refresh, which the game does automatically does by default--10 days for the worldspace and 30 days for dungeon cells). The concern is regarding mods with continually updating scripts, for example, Frostfall, Realistic Needs and Diseases, Player-Headtracking, which rely on these scripts to monitor player status. This is why those mods attach those scripts to quest aliases so they can be halted by the user either via the MCM menu or console commands. If not properly uninstalled, they will spam your Papyrus log, bloat your savegame, and/or 'corrupt' them. If a mod using continually updating scripts does not provide specific and detailed instructions about how to stop running scripts, do not use it.

 

There are only 3 ways to 'clean your saves':

 

1) SKSE ClearInvalidRegistration function (but it will only address orphaned OnUpdate events)

 

2) Start a new game (the surest method of 'cleaning', since any save game made will be brand new, assuming the mod has been completely uninstalled and has left no orphan loose files in the game data directory).

 

3) A third method I will not mention but which has been used by some desperate people whose save games are so bloated that they will not even load, but is basically akin to a form of 'chemotherapy' (and it is better to start a new game).

Edited June 21, 2013 by ripple

[CaptainPatch]

Thanks for sticking with me, ripple. I'm _trying_ to understand this stuff. Really. Honest.

 

But it _still_ sounds like the ONLY way to flush _all_ of the junk is to totally uninstall Skyrim and do a fresh install. Thereafter, be VERY selective about which mods get added.

 

I'm unclear as to how do you know if a mod uses continually updating scripts? Well, maybe not _you_ per se; more like a raw amateur such as myself? I didn't notice a consistent label reading "Warning: This mod uses continuously updating scripts!" [Might make that a good policy to be added to the uploading restrictions.]

 

Minor question: What is the "MCM menu"?

 

Overall, given just how bollixed my Skyrim installations are -- it looks like I've got three, spread across three distinctly different Directory paths, but in some bizarre fashion, _parts_ of each are being used by the Skyrim program -- I'm **yay** close to just uninstalling everything Skyrim. Then start from scratch with a clean install and then start adding 100+ mods. Of course, being able to identify which of those 100+ mods will be causing problems before installing them seems like a Good Idea. Which is what I'm currently struggling with.

 

[For those that have been following my trials and tribulations, after more than a year of playing my Steam copy on my PC, my wife has _finally_ sprang for her own copy installed on _her_ PC. So now I get to see her having a ball playing the Dragonborn DLC while I'm tied up trying to sort out this mess. >:( I always knew she was a sadist at heart. Probably explains why we mesh so well, given that I am obviously a masochist. ;D ]

[b2kcommander]

its not about grafics problem its about ctd ;) therefore go with my inis and have fun without ctd at some certain spot. you wont hardly notice a grafic decrease eather.... it increses your fps and reduces lags and avoids ctds... perhaps you could personalise the grafic parameters like aa or af ... and some shadow things but leave the rest like it is.

[ripple]

 

If you use SkyUI, it comes with it.

 

The easiest way to know whether a mod is using continually updating scripts is to read the readme and check the user comments. Otherwise, you'd have to check out the source script file assuming the modder has made it available for download.

 

I don't advise installing 100+ mods at once. The consistent pattern I've noticed from most 'request for help' threads look something like this:

 

1) User install a ton of mods.

2) Game plays fine for hours, perhaps even days or weeks.

3) CTDs and/or other issues start cropping up. Halp me.

4) User starts yanking mods out of their load order to try and stabilize the game (often leaving orphan junked baked into the save game or orphan loose file in the game directory).

5) Everything goes to hell.

 

To avoid this, I advise not installing 100+ mods at once. Instead, start with a small load order (say 20 mods), play and test, and gradually add mods one by one (and stress test each to make sure they work fine with your set up).

 

Also, don't edit your ini files other then for things like enabling Payprus logging or increasing autosave counts, and don't download and install other people's ini files (made for other people's system specs) without knowing exactly which settings are changed and why. The default game ini settings are already optimized for game stability.

[CaptainPatch]

MCM looks cool. I take it that once installed, at start up it examines what mods are installed and any that are configurable get listed under Mod Configuration. I like that, a lot.

 

"... start with a small load order (say 20 mods), play and test, and gradually add mods one by one (and stress test each to make sure they work fine with your set up)."

 

I can see the wisdom of this approach, buttttttttttt.... Well, when you say "play and test", just how long do you feel is an adequate amount of play time to ascertain that there are (aren't) any problems? 10 hours? 20 hours? 30 hours? less? More? And that's just for the first 20. Which is then followed by "and gradually add mods one by one" with subsequent stress testing for each before adding the next one. Again, what constitutes an "adequate" amount of stress testing? An hour for each? More? Less? [i _am_ looking for some answers or suggestions to these questions, rather than them being part of this rambling protestation.] I pose all these questions because what I am hearing is "You'll be tinkering under the hood for well over 100 hours before you can safely go out driving for real." Like End User Licensing Agreements, who actually wants or bothers to read EVERY word of EVERY paragraph of EVERY page before clicking "I agree"? The same goes for reading ALL of the Readmes and the user Comments. Personally, it takes me about 2-3 weeks to read just ONE paperback book. If you assembled all of the Readmes and user Comments for @100 mods, they would most likely amass to about 4-5 paperback books. At my reading speed, that means it would take me 8 to 15 weeks just to digest that much info. (Considerably more than that if you factor in those additional mods that were considered but then discarded from consideration for some reason or another.)

 

Being completely thorough IS most likely the most optimal approach to safe modding of Skyrim (as well as any other mod-intensive game). But it is the ideal solution to be applied to an Ideal World environment. In this Real World, I'd hazard that 90-95% of users are looking for safe Plug-'n'-Play functionality. So I'm not at all surprised that the consistent pattern for "request for help" threads is as you describe.

 

Hmm. Has any modder considered the possibility of creating some kind of Mod Compatibility Tester? Just plug in the contemplated mods and the MCT checks to see if there were any immediate conflicts between Mod D and Mod S, or how Mod F + Mod J interact to create problems for Mod V. Heck, I'd pay good money (like $20-50) for a program that did that. Times 10,000 other amateur users.... [Then again, I suppose that's what BOSS is trying to do.]

[ripple]

Testing: How long, and how to, depends on the mod. For example, the first time I downloaded 'Player Headtracking', to see if my system can 'handle it', I stress-tested it by going to the most taxing areas of the game with the most number of NPCs that could be 'headtracked' (Riften market), and did everything I could to try and crash the game (attacking everyone, getting them to chase me around, running all over the place, for nice, good 10 minutes). The game did crash, because I was also using 'Populated Cities' at the time, so I knew I had to choose between those two mods (I ended up dropping 'Populated Cities', and decided I would make my own, less taxing, 'NPCs mod' to replace it...), then all was well...

 

How you test the mod and for how long all depends on what the mod does. Without testing, the only other thing you can do is to 'look under the hood' to see what the mod does, by seeing what it edits in TES5Edit, extracting the script source file from the BSA and read them (if the source files are packaged with the mod). Personally, I treat my load order like a temple--nothing gets installed until I have thoroughly checked and verify its integrity (which is why I don't use the Steam Workshop, because it automatically installs mod contents into my game before I have had a chance to extract them somewhere and examine their contents). When I download custom armour/weapon mods, I actually open each mesh in NifSkope to make sure they are not faulty (because a long time ago, in another Bethesda game, one armour mesh from an armour compilation mod caused me persistent CTDs that took me weeks to resolve). The other thing you can do is to move into the realm of making your own custom compatibility patches using TES5Edit (which means a lot of reading and searching the forums).

 

To put it bluntly, if you are going to move into the realm of heavily modding your game, to be a modding 'enthusiast', you will have to devote a great deal of time learning the details of maintaining a stable modded installation and applying pain-staking methods of testing and verifying the mods you use. You'll also need to move beyond the perception that if money is involved--that we can buy shareware applications to simplify mod usage--that things will improve (at least for the average users). It hasn't for games where modding is already monetized (e.g. 'Second Life'). The Steam Workshop already emulates characteristics of an 'Apple AppStore model' approach to modding (minus having to pay for mods), by simplifying everything and treating their users like morons. It hasn't produced better mod installation and management tools (in fact, worse). It most certainly has not produced a more educated modding 'community' (there are still users in the Steam forum whogo around posting that 'BOSS causes CTDs', or 'mod cleaning using TES5Edit will destroy mods'...). It's like Windows--simplifying things for users won't ensure better 'products' per se, but will most assuredly make average computer users more ignorant. There is a fine line between tools that 'make life easier' and tools that make people 'completely helpless.'

 

BOSS does not resolve conflicts, it just tries to 'optimize' your load order based on community knowledge about mods, in spite of conflicts. It's TES5Edit that allows users to check for conflicts between plugin records, but most people have never bothered to learn to interpret records in TES5Edit so they can tell what is a conflict and what isn't. Keep in mind also that the Skyrim modding community would be in worse shape if not for the 'meta-modders' who work on TES5Edit, BOSS, Wrye Bash, NMM, the Mod Organizer, and all the tools we use, so you can always swing by their page and drop a small donation to help facilitate their efforts if you feel inclined.

Edited June 22, 2013 by ripple