Legion Vs. NCR

[scottym23]

From what I've observed and learned from playing the game and reading the wiki, I've come to the conclusion that there is little to no chance the Legion could ever take over Hoover Damn and repel the NCR successfully (excluding the help of the main character). Their style of combat doesn't suit a head to head fight with the NCR, which would be necessary to overtake the damn. Also, the recruits and low ranking soldiers in the Legion aren't armed with barely any firearms, unless they pick up varmint rifles or .357 revolvers. This clearly is no match against the NCR's superior firepower and training. The high ranking Prime, Decanus, and veteran legionaries use sub machine gun and cowboy repeaters primarily, but they are few in number compared to the NCR elite. The highest ranking tier in the Legion army, the Centurions, aren't ever used for battle so it doesn't matter what weapons they use. The bottom line is in a simulation run 100 times, i'd say that the NCR would win just about every one, with the exception of one or maybe a couple losses just by random chance and luck being on the Legion's side. What do you guys think?

[scottym23]

If anyone has reason to believe otherwise please feel free to discuss it here!

[trob1000]

It is true that the Legion hates technology and that would be a big disadvantage when facing the NCR. The Legion does have drive unlike the NCR. The NCR soldiers have varying degrees of devotion, and no level is like the average Legionnaire. The devotion could even the odds out a little. Meaning the Legion might be able to take the Mojave because of this devotion and the NCR's lack of interest and resources devoted to the Mojave. The Legion would be unable to take the NCR homeland over. Southern California would be more populated than the entirety of the Legion Empire. The NCR can support more people because California has a more temperate climate and would still be green and more hospitable than Arizona. Northern California would be green, not southern California. Also, most people in the NCR would be armed. People are willing to defend their homeland even if they don't agree with the policies of their nation as a whole.

Edited June 24, 2013 by trob1000

[scottym23]

It is true that the Legion hates technology and that would be a big disadvantage when facing the NCR. The Legion does have drive unlike the NCR. The NCR soldiers have varying degrees of devotion, and no level is like the average Legionnaire. The devotion could even the odds out a little. Meaning the Legion might be able to take the Mojave because of this devotion and the NCR's lack of interest and resources devoted to the Mojave. The Legion would be unable to take the NCR homeland over. Southern California would be more populated than the entirety of the Legion Empire. The NCR can support more people because California has a more temperate climate and would still be green and more hospitable than Arizona. Northern California would be green, not southern California. Also, most people in the NCR would be armed. People are willing to defend their homeland even if they don't agree with the policies of their nation as a whole.

 

I see where you're coming from and agree that the legion have more devotion than the NCR, no doubt about that. However I do disagree with you on how far that devotion would take you in battle. Just looking at the physical landscape of the area surrounding the damn, there are only two clear cut ends to infiltrate by except for the large cliffs on the one side of it. The majority of the troops will try and flank the NCR at both ends, but undoubtedly fail at this with the NCR's superior gun skills and tactical advantage. There will probably be some legionaries who fire from the top of the cliffs, but this will prove easy work for the snipers at the tops of the towers. Any attempt at scaling the cliff will just be disastrous so I doubt they'd even attempt such a move.

 

Even though the NCR troops don't have drive or devotion for their political views or morals on the issue of hoover damn, there is no doubt they'd fight their hardest to protect themselves, their comrades, and their jobs. To assume that somehow a legionary warrior sprinting straight at an NCR troop with more "drive" would somehow impede the bullet's progress fired by the NCR trooper's gun is a little movie-esk to say the least.

 

Drive plays a major role if both sides are evenly matched and it just comes down to who wants it more, but in this situation I don't think that applies. A trooper with a gun and a tactical advantage vs. a legionary soldier with a machete most likely (at most a broken or worn down varmint rifle or .357 magnum that he just picked up on the way and has little to no experience with) would be slaughter 999/1000, and no amount of "drive" will change those odds.

[trob1000]

The NCR wasn't being very tactical about their campaign. General Oliver's nick name was General Wait and See. An team of legionaries could swim around lake Mead under cover and conduct attacks on the dam. Also most NCR troopers don't have standard issue weapons. Many have light weapons like 10mm and 9mm weapons, not the .556 service rifles. I have seen Legion and NCR patrols run into each other and the Legion wins even when the numbers are even. Legion soldiers are more durable and more skilled than an NCR trooper.

 

About the tactical thing, even though it isn't in the Legion's strategy to go around and attack from behind, it would change things for the NCR if there were explosions behind them as well as an on coming army. It can't be ignored that the Legion troops are more durable than the NCR. With even numbers, the Legion would win a head on battle. If the NCR had an advantage of numbers, like they would in southern California, the Legion couldn't win because on average, a legionaries would be taking to many shots for health to matter. The element of surprise can change a fight and do more damage than guns can. Look at the Battle of the Bulge, we weren't expecting an offensive. The NCR would expect a terrorist style bombings coming from behind their lines.

Edited June 24, 2013 by trob1000

[peadar1987]

I always imagined the Legion fighting like the ancient Romans actually did. Lightly-armed cannon fodder go in first (armed with machetes and throwing spears). They probably mostly get killed, but their objective is not to stay alive, it's to probe the enemy's weaknesses and let them reveal their positions. Once the Hastati (recruit legionaries) have done their job, then the Principes (Prime Legionaries) and Triarii (Veteran Legionaries) can move in and wipe out the troopers (which they are more than capable of doing. Lots of them are armed with trail carbines, brush guns, even 12.7mm SMGs).

 

I think the Legion, as a centrally-organised society with the one aim of making more legionaries to expand Legion territory, will be working hard east of the Colorado to irrigate the land, and produce huge amounts of crops using slave labour. I reckon they have no problem feeding their troops and expanding their population, in comparison to the NCR, where the chief aim is probably profit for the Brahmin barons, not raising strong soldiers.

 

Also, the Legion seem more tactically astute. The NCR are merely entrenching at Hoover Dam and McCarran, whereas the legion are taking the fight across the Colorado, striking at NCR supply lines, stirring up the Fiends and the Great Khans, sabotaging infrastructure, and assassinating targets. Having a Service Rifle isn't much good for killing legionaries when the caravans bringing in the ammunition have been cut to pieces with machetes. The Legion are definitely more of a threat than I initially thought.

[trob1000]

The Legion does have the ability and sole desire to make more soldiers, but that doesn't mean they can with the same capacity that the NCR can. Arizona is a desert as it is and with the damaged the war caused would have made things worse. Northern California is more habitable and has more farmland. This means than can support more people. The Brotherhood found out the hard way that good training doesn't mean much when you are grossly out numbered. Arizona can't and never will support a large population like California can. As someone who grew up outside of the US I can understand not knowing the geography and biomes of North America.

 

I always imagined the Legion fighting like the ancient Romans actually did. Lightly-armed cannon fodder go in first (armed with machetes and throwing spears). They probably mostly get killed, but their objective is not to stay alive, it's to probe the enemy's weaknesses and let them reveal their positions. Once the Hastati (recruit legionaries) have done their job, then the Principes (Prime Legionaries) and Triarii (Veteran Legionaries) can move in and wipe out the troopers (which they are more than capable of doing. Lots of them are armed with trail carbines, brush guns, even 12.7mm SMGs).

 

I think the Legion, as a centrally-organised society with the one aim of making more legionaries to expand Legion territory, will be working hard east of the Colorado to irrigate the land, and produce huge amounts of crops using slave labour. I reckon they have no problem feeding their troops and expanding their population, in comparison to the NCR, where the chief aim is probably profit for the Brahmin barons, not raising strong soldiers.

 

Also, the Legion seem more tactically astute. The NCR are merely entrenching at Hoover Dam and McCarran, whereas the legion are taking the fight across the Colorado, striking at NCR supply lines, stirring up the Fiends and the Great Khans, sabotaging infrastructure, and assassinating targets. Having a Service Rifle isn't much good for killing legionaries when the caravans bringing in the ammunition have been cut to pieces with machetes. The Legion are definitely more of a threat than I initially thought.

[peadar1987]

 

The Legion does have the ability and sole desire to make more soldiers, but that doesn't mean they can with the same capacity that the NCR can. Arizona is a desert as it is and with the damaged the war caused would have made things worse. Northern California is more habitable and has more farmland. This means than can support more people. The Brotherhood found out the hard way that good training doesn't mean much when you are grossly out numbered. Arizona can't and never will support a large population like California can. As someone who grew up outside of the US I can understand not knowing the geography and biomes of North America.

 

I always imagined the Legion fighting like the ancient Romans actually did. Lightly-armed cannon fodder go in first (armed with machetes and throwing spears). They probably mostly get killed, but their objective is not to stay alive, it's to probe the enemy's weaknesses and let them reveal their positions. Once the Hastati (recruit legionaries) have done their job, then the Principes (Prime Legionaries) and Triarii (Veteran Legionaries) can move in and wipe out the troopers (which they are more than capable of doing. Lots of them are armed with trail carbines, brush guns, even 12.7mm SMGs).

 

I think the Legion, as a centrally-organised society with the one aim of making more legionaries to expand Legion territory, will be working hard east of the Colorado to irrigate the land, and produce huge amounts of crops using slave labour. I reckon they have no problem feeding their troops and expanding their population, in comparison to the NCR, where the chief aim is probably profit for the Brahmin barons, not raising strong soldiers.

 

Also, the Legion seem more tactically astute. The NCR are merely entrenching at Hoover Dam and McCarran, whereas the legion are taking the fight across the Colorado, striking at NCR supply lines, stirring up the Fiends and the Great Khans, sabotaging infrastructure, and assassinating targets. Having a Service Rifle isn't much good for killing legionaries when the caravans bringing in the ammunition have been cut to pieces with machetes. The Legion are definitely more of a threat than I initially thought.

 

 

I think that's balanced out by the fact that the legion control more territory. I suppose it all really depends on whether the Legion's push to the east has reached Texas yet. Anything less, and I think you're probably right, in the long term, the legion simply won't have the manpower to grind down the population of the NCR, they need a decisive victory at Hoover Dam, and a rapid push to the sea, crushing resistance before it has the chance to develop. I think if they establish in California, rebellion will be very difficult. There are lots of individuals in the NCR, many with guns, combat skills, and a hatred of the legion, but without organisation, each one of them would be made an example of before they could cause any damage to the regime.

[RJLbwb]

 

 

The Legion does have the ability and sole desire to make more soldiers, but that doesn't mean they can with the same capacity that the NCR can. Arizona is a desert as it is and with the damaged the war caused would have made things worse. Northern California is more habitable and has more farmland. This means than can support more people. The Brotherhood found out the hard way that good training doesn't mean much when you are grossly out numbered. Arizona can't and never will support a large population like California can. As someone who grew up outside of the US I can understand not knowing the geography and biomes of North America.

 

I always imagined the Legion fighting like the ancient Romans actually did. Lightly-armed cannon fodder go in first (armed with machetes and throwing spears). They probably mostly get killed, but their objective is not to stay alive, it's to probe the enemy's weaknesses and let them reveal their positions. Once the Hastati (recruit legionaries) have done their job, then the Principes (Prime Legionaries) and Triarii (Veteran Legionaries) can move in and wipe out the troopers (which they are more than capable of doing. Lots of them are armed with trail carbines, brush guns, even 12.7mm SMGs).

 

I think the Legion, as a centrally-organised society with the one aim of making more legionaries to expand Legion territory, will be working hard east of the Colorado to irrigate the land, and produce huge amounts of crops using slave labour. I reckon they have no problem feeding their troops and expanding their population, in comparison to the NCR, where the chief aim is probably profit for the Brahmin barons, not raising strong soldiers.

 

Also, the Legion seem more tactically astute. The NCR are merely entrenching at Hoover Dam and McCarran, whereas the legion are taking the fight across the Colorado, striking at NCR supply lines, stirring up the Fiends and the Great Khans, sabotaging infrastructure, and assassinating targets. Having a Service Rifle isn't much good for killing legionaries when the caravans bringing in the ammunition have been cut to pieces with machetes. The Legion are definitely more of a threat than I initially thought.

 

 

I think that's balanced out by the fact that the legion control more territory. I suppose it all really depends on whether the Legion's push to the east has reached Texas yet. Anything less, and I think you're probably right, in the long term, the legion simply won't have the manpower to grind down the population of the NCR, they need a decisive victory at Hoover Dam, and a rapid push to the sea, crushing resistance before it has the chance to develop. I think if they establish in California, rebellion will be very difficult. There are lots of individuals in the NCR, many with guns, combat skills, and a hatred of the legion, but without organisation, each one of them would be made an example of before they could cause any damage to the regime.

 

The Fallout wiki it's game lore the Legion's population is crashing due to the way they abuse women, chew up men in their army and exacute dangerous criminals like jaywalkers. It's also mentioned that the NCR is over populated to the point of drinking lakes dry (though that's a bit hard to belive considering how dangerous the world of Fallout is)

 

Not to play spolier but the issue of how big California is next to everything else in the west comes up with Legate Lanius

 

It's kind of hard to talk about the Legion in real life terms since the whole faction is set up like something from a fantasy game (heck, some of the named Legion NPCs even have magical swords)

Edited June 26, 2013 by RJLbwb

[peadar1987]

 

 

 

The Legion does have the ability and sole desire to make more soldiers, but that doesn't mean they can with the same capacity that the NCR can. Arizona is a desert as it is and with the damaged the war caused would have made things worse. Northern California is more habitable and has more farmland. This means than can support more people. The Brotherhood found out the hard way that good training doesn't mean much when you are grossly out numbered. Arizona can't and never will support a large population like California can. As someone who grew up outside of the US I can understand not knowing the geography and biomes of North America.

 

I always imagined the Legion fighting like the ancient Romans actually did. Lightly-armed cannon fodder go in first (armed with machetes and throwing spears). They probably mostly get killed, but their objective is not to stay alive, it's to probe the enemy's weaknesses and let them reveal their positions. Once the Hastati (recruit legionaries) have done their job, then the Principes (Prime Legionaries) and Triarii (Veteran Legionaries) can move in and wipe out the troopers (which they are more than capable of doing. Lots of them are armed with trail carbines, brush guns, even 12.7mm SMGs).

 

I think the Legion, as a centrally-organised society with the one aim of making more legionaries to expand Legion territory, will be working hard east of the Colorado to irrigate the land, and produce huge amounts of crops using slave labour. I reckon they have no problem feeding their troops and expanding their population, in comparison to the NCR, where the chief aim is probably profit for the Brahmin barons, not raising strong soldiers.

 

Also, the Legion seem more tactically astute. The NCR are merely entrenching at Hoover Dam and McCarran, whereas the legion are taking the fight across the Colorado, striking at NCR supply lines, stirring up the Fiends and the Great Khans, sabotaging infrastructure, and assassinating targets. Having a Service Rifle isn't much good for killing legionaries when the caravans bringing in the ammunition have been cut to pieces with machetes. The Legion are definitely more of a threat than I initially thought.

 

 

I think that's balanced out by the fact that the legion control more territory. I suppose it all really depends on whether the Legion's push to the east has reached Texas yet. Anything less, and I think you're probably right, in the long term, the legion simply won't have the manpower to grind down the population of the NCR, they need a decisive victory at Hoover Dam, and a rapid push to the sea, crushing resistance before it has the chance to develop. I think if they establish in California, rebellion will be very difficult. There are lots of individuals in the NCR, many with guns, combat skills, and a hatred of the legion, but without organisation, each one of them would be made an example of before they could cause any damage to the regime.

 

The Fallout wiki it's game lore the Legion's population is crashing due to the way they abuse women, chew up men in their army and exacute dangerous criminals like jaywalkers. It's also mentioned that the NCR is over populated to the point of drinking lakes dry (though that's a bit hard to belive considering how dangerous the world of Fallout is)

 

Not to play spolier but the issue of how big California is next to everything else in the west comes up with Legate Lanius

 

It's kind of hard to talk about the Legion in real life terms since the whole faction is set up like something from a fantasy game (heck, some of the named Legion NPCs even have magical swords)

 

 

If it's the same part of the wiki I'm thinking of, the population's not exactly crashing, but key legion NPCs admit that the current set-up is never going to work in the long run. Which is why Caesar wants Vegas to serve as his "Rome". Instead of the legion being an army that happens to control large amounts of land, he wants it to become a society of its own. Perhaps an aggressive, expansionist, brutal society, but one with farmers, and traders, and plebians, and praetorians. One in which the people would serve the identity of the Legion, and not the personality cult of Caesar, and which would live on after he died.

 

For the moment, the Legion are using vast amounts of slave labour as a stop-gap to keep their army running, in the absence of a proper nation state to back them up.